The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Gundam420 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:44 pm

Psychoframe overload.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:26 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but beside the RX-0 units, the other Psycho units only have Psycho frame aroudn the cockpit (the one exception most likely being the golden ring of the Neo Zeong). Therefore, even if the Psycho Frame do could disintegrate, why would the rest of the frame also be affected? Perhaps even more important, why would the cockpit of the Sinanju, the one piece of hardware we do know has Pyscho frame, didn't disintegrate.

I find this logic very flawed.

As for general sentiment on the series, ever since episode 5, the series suddenly seems to take the side of the EF, meaning that they want to put the blame on the EF leaders and spare the grunt soldiers:

-The Ankushas on ep 5 were merely disabled.
-The MS that launched from the General Revil were also only disabled.
-The MS at the Cheyenne Base are forced to surrender and seem to suffer no casualties (at least on-screen).

From episode 1 up to 4, both sides suffer significant losses, but afterwards, only the Nahel Argama and the Neo Zeon forces suffer casualties.

Then there's the destruction of the Rewloola and its Musaka escort, which is also very illogical if you think about the situation:

-The Rewloola should be approaching Industrial 7 from Earth.
-The colony laser seems to be somewhere close to Side 7/Luna II, and therefore needs to fire from an angle that avoids hitting Earth.
-It seems like a very unlikely that the Neo Zeon fleet not only took a route that put them in a firing line from Side 7 to Industrial 7 (outside of Earth's "shadow" to speak of), but also that it was precisely the same firing line through which the Colony Laser fired.
-Even assuming that the EF knew precisely hrough which line was the Neo Zeon fleet approaching, t's very unlikely that they would change the firing line of the Colony Laser just to put them in the same one, given the large size of the Colony Laser itself and the difficulty (not to mention the notoriety of moving around such massive object) that would represent repositioning it.

Given the circumstances, I just don't buy that coincidence.

And speaking about ships, and while I might to take another closer look at the episode, but it looks like the Musaka and Endras were not firing at all during the battle, limiting themselves to deploying MS. Considering the situation, and the fact that the Neo Zeon forces should have had a good diea of the Nahel Argama's battle strength and damage at that point, not engaging them directly with at least some their own ships seems like a terrible strategical decision, specially considering that the one weapon they should have been more aware of, and which they knew for certain was still operational, was the hyper mega particle cannon, which had greater range than any of their weapons (at least among the officially confirmed ones).

Last but not least, while Zeon's abundance of old and unorthodox weapons can be explained by assuming that they have stored and adapted anything they had at hand, the Nahel Argama's new arsenal doesn't make much sense: between ep 3 and ep 7 the Nahel Argama doesn't seem to have received any additional repairs beyond those made by the beginning of episode 3. And given that by ep 5 neither the damaged NZ-666 nor the ECOAS unit have been retrieved from the Nahel Argama, it does seem safe to assume that no transport ship came to provide them any additional equipment or MS. At this point the only possible explanation I can think of is that most of the odd weapons and stuff must have been leftover from the weapons the Garencieres brought for engaging the Garuda, though it still looks like a longshot. But that would still leave the mystery of how they got an EWAC Jegan.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Kratos » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:18 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but beside the RX-0 units, the other Psycho units only have Psycho frame aroudn the cockpit (the one exception most likely being the golden ring of the Neo Zeong). Therefore, even if the Psycho Frame do could disintegrate, why would the rest of the frame also be affected? Perhaps even more important, why would the cockpit of the Sinanju, the one piece of hardware we do know has Pyscho frame, didn't disintegrate.
Remember, psyco-fields are physical energy that can easily repel stuff; presumably, they can destroy stuff too, if powerful enough. As such, my impression was that the Neo Zeong didn't disintegrate because it had a psyco-frame, it disintegrated because of the psyco-field projected by the Unicorn and Banshee.

And if it's not mutual psyco frames causing the destruction, I suppose you could say that the cockpit was protected enough by the giant mass of metal around it to survive the psyco field onslaught.
Gelgoog Jager wrote:As for general sentiment on the series, ever since episode 5, the series suddenly seems to take the side of the EF, meaning that they want to put the blame on the EF leaders and spare the grunt soldiers [...] From episode 1 up to 4, both sides suffer significant losses, but afterwards, only the Nahel Argama and the Neo Zeon forces suffer casualties.


Most of these have pretty good handwave explanations. The majority involve Federation forces attacking other Federation forces, with the good guys in full realization that it is, in fact, the leadership that's the problem. It makes a certain amount of sense that Bright (and Riddhe, in his episode 6 assault on the Nahel Argama's suits) would avoid slaughtering their own troops. Meanwhile, Frontal and Angelo specifically avoid killing the General Revil's legions (with the generally accepted reasoning that it was to get the crew of the Nahel Argama to the negotiation table). The Ankshas mostly attack the Unicorn when they aren't getting repelled by psyco fields, and Banagher's not much of a wanton killer.
Gelgoog Jager wrote:Then there's the destruction of the Rewloola and its Musaka escort, which is also very illogical if you think about the situation
I'm going to watch for this when I (finally) get a chance to see the episode in English this weekend, because it didn't stand out to me on my first viewing. BUT you do mention that the Rewloola sould be approaching from Earth - why? The position of the ships seemed kind of nebulous in episode 6; yeah, they were in the vicinity at the start, but surely they'd get as much distance from the Federation's defense lines as possible once the GR was fended off. Was there something that showed its approach to Industrial 7 as being via Earth?
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by HellCat » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:46 am

Anyone know what's happening with Blu-ray 7? Found a right stuf listing saying out tomorrow but no listing on Amazon UK.

Is this my own UC bookend because I'll have had to get both volumes 1 and 7 from America?
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Deacon Blues » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:52 pm

There's one thing that bothers me regarding the constant colony drop depictions... I can't help but wonder if they're really being portrayed accurately. Ideally, wouldn't the tail end of the colony where the thrusters are be blown out upon impact? Or are we just cutting away from the portrayal before that happens?

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by MV6000 the Ace Zeon Pilot » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:10 am

Finally got my copy on Blu-Ray which means I finally completed the series on Blu-Ray. I enjoyed this episode just didn't like all the over the top Newtype scenes since they were too over the top.
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As for La plus's box it's sad that it didn't really do anything. You can tell by how people don't have any positive thoughts on the ideas of Newtypes by the time F91 takes place. Which in turn makes the whole reveal to the public meaningless.
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I'm glad they added the whole Char and Amuro Newtype thing into this since it finally confirms that they are dead not MIA.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by MaC » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:31 pm

HellCat wrote:For me, the only major issue with Unicorn is what the charter suggests about Zeon and which the episode directly voices. Did we really need a 'Zeon weren't the real bad guys' retcon after 3 decades of them clearly being an elaborate puppet of a would be dictator?

How does Unicorn suggest "Zeon weren't the real bad guys" in any way whatsoever? Zeon as an organization has always been the distortion of Zeon Deikum by the power hungry machinations of the Zabi's. It's what motivates Char's entire character arc in first. Unicorn doesn't excuse the Zeon or the Federation's weaknesses or shortcomings. We see aspects that embody the worst of both organizations, Full Frontal, Angelo, the people under Vist's thumb. And the best, the Nahel Argama and Garenceries crew, and promotes the idea that toeing the ideological line on either side is not the optimal or correct path. Which I think has been present in almost all great UC Gundam series. The Federation is often depicted as corrupt and evil, but I don't think Zeon are really depicted as much better. UC has always looked at the perils and inherent evils of such large powerful enities and found characters who embody different aspects of those organizations and allowing them to be distinct.

Regarding the Blu-Ray, am I crazy or wasn't there like a Gundam UC Short supposed to come out or something? Episode EX? I was never clear what that was exactly

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by HellCat » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:28 pm

I've already explained my logic earlier in the thread, so I'd suggest reading said earlier posts if you want to know why I express that opinion. Cheers.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by excalibur2008 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:37 pm

MaC wrote: Unicorn doesn't excuse the Zeon or the Federation's weaknesses or shortcomings. We see aspects that embody the worst of both organizations, Full Frontal, Angelo, the people under Vist's thumb. And the best, the Nahel Argama and Garenceries crew, and promotes the idea that toeing the ideological line on either side is not the optimal or correct path. Which I think has been present in almost all great UC Gundam series. The Federation is often depicted as corrupt and evil, but I don't think Zeon are really depicted as much better. UC has always looked at the perils and inherent evils of such large powerful enities and found characters who embody different aspects of those organizations and allowing them to be distinct.
I just can't buy the whole "The Federation is just as bad as Zeon" thing.

I mean seriously at its worst the Earth Federation had an elite military unit become morally bankrupt and kill millions and basically a decent chunk of their military rebelled to take them down.

The Zeon on the other hand killed billions (many of whom were the very people they claimed to be fighting for) and everyone went along with it and never once tried to stop them.

Hell Zeon is trying to impose a dictatorship on all of humanity through force of arms and regularly uses mass murder to try to pull it off.

Not to mention if the first Neo Zeon hadn't tried to make a freaking power play to take over, the AUEG might have been able to actually fix the problems in the Earth Federation after the Gryps War.

I can't even really think of one positive thing Zeon has even contributed to the UC.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Kratos » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:08 am

But the Federation's villainy takes on a different form. They aren't genocidal, no, but at certain times their administration has been oppressive on the institutional level and (more often) willing to turn a blind eye to injustice if solving that injustice means compromising their own position or if it inconveniences them.

I don't think they're anywhere near as bad as Zeon and I disagree that Unicorn implies so, but there's room in the 100 years of UC history for benevolence and malevolence and bureaucratic ignorance in the same government.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by excalibur2008 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:56 pm

Kratos wrote:But the Federation's villainy takes on a different form. They aren't genocidal, no, but at certain times their administration has been oppressive on the institutional level and (more often) willing to turn a blind eye to injustice if solving that injustice means compromising their own position or if it inconveniences them.
Yes, but the more moral Federation citizens usually try to do something about it, whereas the Zeon seem to totally ignore their leadership being nuts.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:17 pm

What Unicorn does that makes it seem like they consider the Earth Federation as bad as Zeon is they present Zeon as a viable alternative to the Federation. Banagher tools around with various Zeon folks listening to them rant about the evils of the Federation, never taking the opportunity to point out that for all of the Federation's supposed crimes, Zeon has done far worse. When Full Frontal explains his Co-Prosperity Sphere plan, the objection raised is "but that wouldn't end the war", not "but you're a bunch of genocidal lunatics". No one seems to mind the fact that Zeon, at various times, has gassed billions of spacenoids, staged three separate colony drops, tried to take over the Earth Sphere twice, and nearly succeeded in destroying all life on Earth. No, the real issue is the Federation shenanigans with Laplace's Box! That's obviously way more important than anything Zeon's done!

Then there's the fact that Unicorn goes out of its way to make the Federation look worse than it did in previous shows. Things that are downright nonsensical -- like Zinnerman's backstory of his family being killed by Federation occupation forces. What occupation forces? The Federation never occupied any Zeon territory! Not to mention the whole Laplace's Box thing, which is basically a plot device to allow Unicorn's entire narrative to revolve around "look at this bad thing the Federation did". By painting the Federation in ever-darker shades of grey, and never bringing up the fact that Zeon is pitch black, Unicorn puts Zeon in a better light. Comparing the Federation to Zeon by saying that the Federation isn't perfect either is disingenuous in and of itself -- it's like comparing a jaywalker to a murderer by saying "well, they both broke the law, didn't they?".
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by excalibur2008 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:59 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:When Full Frontal explains his Co-Prosperity Sphere plan, the objection raised is "but that wouldn't end the war", not "but you're a bunch of genocidal lunatics".
Plus considering what its named after wouldn't that just call for making the the rest of the colonies Side 3's economic vassals.

Seriously why is Zeon considered a morally grey when all their freaking plans call for overthrowing the Earth Federation just so they can oppress the Earth Sphere.

So you can't even say Zeon has an admirable goal.

Seriously why are we supposed to like these people they are authoritarian ZOINKS trying to take over the world via mass murder, pretty much throw the rest of the colonies under the bus at the drop of a hat, and pathetically try to continue a war they lost with further mass murder becuase they don't like the new government.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by toysdream » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:06 pm

I'd suggest that Unicorn may be trying less to glorify Zeon, and more to come up with some kind of plausible in-universe reason why anyone listens to these nutjobs at all. :-)

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Kratos » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:22 pm

Seriously why are we supposed to like these people they are authoritarian ZOINKS trying to take over the world via mass murder, pretty much throw the rest of the colonies under the bus at the drop of a hat, and pathetically try to continue a war they lost with further mass murder becuase they don't like the new government.
Because the deal with Zeon has always been "the odd good person amidst the ranks of a detestable dictatorship". That's a big part of MSG. We're NOT supposed to like Zeon, we're supposed to like certain people allied with Zeon; that's even true in Unicorn, where those who actively glom onto its ideology are depicted as deluded or psychotic and its leadership is treated as either dangerous and untrustworthy (Frontal) or suicidally deluded (the Remnants). And Frontal's plan isn't treated as genocidal because it's not, at least not in the way that all other Zeon plans were. His co-prosperity sphere was dangerous because it would simply put the Federation in the position of the downtrodden and perpetuate the existing system with reversed positions, and because using the Box as blackmail, he was going to do it all from behind the scenes. That doesn't imply genocidal lunacy.

And hey, at least the OVA turns it down a notch from the novels, where at least two character back stories involves rape-happy Federation soldiers.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by BrentD15 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:47 pm

Kratos wrote:
Seriously why are we supposed to like these people they are authoritarian ZOINKS trying to take over the world via mass murder, pretty much throw the rest of the colonies under the bus at the drop of a hat, and pathetically try to continue a war they lost with further mass murder becuase they don't like the new government.
Because the deal with Zeon has always been "the odd good person amidst the ranks of a detestable dictatorship". That's a big part of MSG. We're NOT supposed to like Zeon, we're supposed to like certain people allied with Zeon; that's even true in Unicorn, where those who actively glom onto its ideology are depicted as deluded or psychotic and its leadership is treated as either dangerous and untrustworthy (Frontal) or suicidally deluded (the Remnants). And Frontal's plan isn't treated as genocidal because it's not, at least not in the way that all other Zeon plans were. His co-prosperity sphere was dangerous because it would simply put the Federation in the position of the downtrodden and perpetuate the existing system with reversed positions, and because using the Box as blackmail, he was going to do it all from behind the scenes. That doesn't imply genocidal lunacy.

And hey, at least the OVA turns it down a notch from the novels, where at least two character back stories involves rape-happy Federation soldiers.
Agreed.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by HellCat » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:26 am

I generally agree with Kratos but I think a partial issue is the old question of if the story is expecting us to excuse certain things or take them outright as bad. Case in point, I've often argued that the final battle stuff in the first MS IGLOO felt very awkward for how it dived head first in the Nazi connections for Zeon yet seemingly wanted us to cheer for these characters as they fought to survive and hold the battle lines. Yet I've seen others argue this isn't the case and we're simply supposed to see it as tragic, that these otherwise good people have become stuck in this situation/allegiance.

For my money, I generally feel alot of productions have tried to excuse Zeon and missed the condemnation works like MSG, Zeta and ZZ offer of them. In fact I think the lack of answers Volume 7 gives us on Full Frontal are arguably part of this. We are never really in that final volume perhaps given an excuse to see Zeon as the antagonist. There's lip service paid to it but all we really have is Full Frontal still doing his pseudo Char shtick, Angelo going so stalker he suddenly declares he can't stand any of his commander's other soldiers and stuff like those few mecha cameos attacking the ship. If the production had actually commited to defining Zeon and it's problems, things would be different. I appreciate that alot of what I'm talking about had arguably been established in the prior volume, but with so many vague points in depicting them by the end it does at least suggest the fact that openly addressing them wouldn't hold up to scrutiny and reveal some dark truths that mess up this awkward romaticised take on Zeon that seems to be pushed.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by BrentD15 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:17 am

HellCat wrote:For my money, I generally feel alot of productions have tried to excuse Zeon and missed the condemnation works like MSG, Zeta and ZZ offer of them. In fact I think the lack of answers Volume 7 gives us on Full Frontal are arguably part of this. We are never really in that final volume perhaps given an excuse to see Zeon as the antagonist. There's lip service paid to it but all we really have is Full Frontal still doing his pseudo Char shtick, Angelo going so stalker he suddenly declares he can't stand any of his commander's other soldiers and stuff like those few mecha cameos attacking the ship. If the production had actually commited to defining Zeon and it's problems, things would be different. I appreciate that alot of what I'm talking about had arguably been established in the prior volume, but with so many vague points in depicting them by the end it does at least suggest the fact that openly addressing them wouldn't hold up to scrutiny and reveal some dark truths that mess up this awkward romaticised take on Zeon that seems to be pushed.
However, it doesn't excuse Zeon as a whole; it rather excuses the people that see what Zeon is doing as fruitless, even though the Zeon leadership won't admit it (as we've already discussed before!).

I hope that clears up some stuff.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by HellCat » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:56 am

But we aren't told how Full Frontal came to be. We're given some vague hints but unless you read the novel, Frontal is just this shady guy who is imitating Char...because. How he came to be, how he came to power....none of that is addressed fully on screen. Which seems odd given the only on screen story about Char's Neo-Zeon establishes them to have leaders/bureacrats beyond him. So presumably they must have had something to do with the existence of Full Frontal. To not address that is odd given much of Unicorn is based on what happened in that film (pretty much everything to do with the Unicorn Gundams is a response and expansion of the Axis Shock event).

However, we do get a ton of scenes to constantly remind us that the Vists and the Federation have some secret pact. We apparently need to be reminded of that every episode rather than say 'Well that's been established, so let's go a bit deeper into the other major faction'.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VII

Post by Angelo Sauper » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:40 pm

HellCat wrote:If the production had actually commited to defining Zeon and it's problems, things would be different.
But why does it need to commit more time to defining Zeon and its problems, when that's been clearly developed through three series and a movie? Not to mention that their malicious motives and dubious ideology have been both explicitly shown and inferred throughout the whole series.

From episode one, Mineva explicitly says Full Frontal wants to start another war.

In episode five, Mineva tells Martha to stop using Marida as a mind slave, but Martha promptly reminds her that ZEON created child soldiers. Episode four shows a flash back of the first colony drop, and it shows Zeon attacking two cities. We're always being reminded of what has been done in the name of Zeon and how much anguish it has caused.

I really don't see how Zeon could be portrayed in a worse light. Do you want Angelo whipping people in a concentration camp? Do you want to see Gilboa's family chomping on human flesh during the dinner scene?
HellCat wrote:I appreciate that alot of what I'm talking about had arguably been established in the prior volume, but with so many vague points in depicting them by the end it does at least suggest the fact that openly addressing them wouldn't hold up to scrutiny and reveal some dark truths that mess up this awkward romaticised take on Zeon that seems to be pushed.
The "dark truths" you've been mentioning are openly addressed throughout the series, they were just never the focus. The focus is on the people. Why are people still fighting for such a screwed up cause? Why is the violence being perpetuated?

Narratives don't need clear moral boundaries and Unicorn addresses this. It just seems as though you, and a lot of other people that share your view are missing some of the themes that the series explores. Not that I mean it as a jab, but I've seen people that share your opinion and they haven't really processed what they've seen before making such a wrong accusation.

That or I've watched the episodes too much.

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