Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Regild

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SonicSP
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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by SonicSP » Fri May 09, 2014 1:48 am

I'm fine with retcons in general, I just like having a lot of layers of canoncity tiers or at least an order. I guess in a way that's still going on in Star Wars, just restarting.

That's the thing though, there was actually a level of canon somewhere of what happens, even if its limited to only a few things. Gundam doesn't even recognize canon among its official white level works like the difference between a TV series and a movie for the most part.

Then again, we probably won't see a big movie level Star Wars movie being remade with different/alternate events though like we often see in Gundam and when we do it probably be a very weak source againts a very strong one l(like a novel and a movie) rather than two strong sources.
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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by Kratos » Fri May 09, 2014 1:56 am

But why are canon tiers even necessary (beyond the writer's room, because having an agreed-upon set of events does help when creating the actual fiction, I'm sure)? What do fans gain by knowing that some things are more "true" than others? This isn't real-world history here, where accounts of what happened actually matter. It just kinda confuses me that people would rather be told what stories they can enjoy as part of their franchises and which they can't, rather than get the chance to decide on their own.
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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by SonicSP » Fri May 09, 2014 1:59 am

For me, it's just a preference I have, I rather like being told what happened. I do treat it as real world history.....but of a fantasy world. To me, having a set upon events is a utility of itself.

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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by ShadowCell » Fri May 09, 2014 5:22 am

Kratos wrote:What do fans gain by knowing that some things are more "true" than others?
because that way we can settle internet arguments over whose theory about x should be believed by the rest of us.

that's no surprise, because the whole idea of canon as it originally appears in religious institutions was set to the same purpose. you can't convince others that God is actually a large animate pile of noodles based on these passages from the Gospel of Larry because the Gospel of Larry is not in the canon, and therefore it has no divine authority and speaks to no truth. likewise, you can't argue that the three Star Wars prequels are actually just a weird fever dream concocted by Luke Skywalker's painkiller-addled mind as the medical droids give him a new hand and therefore there was no annoying comedy relief character that invoked some disturbing racial stereotypes and Darth Vader wasn't a totally whiny bitch before he became evil and the Jedi can't sense the evil ultra-powerful Sith Lord when he's sitting right in front of them because they're all idiots and etc, because the canon says no, Jar Jar Binks was a thing and Darth Vader was a totally whiny little bitch before he became evil and the Jedi were idiots and etc and therefore nobody should believe the Luke's-fever-dream theory.

we've been using the idea of canon to shut down arguments for thousands of years. it's no surprise that it's spread to fictional universes in the same way. and since that idea is so old and so ingrained, it's no surprise that there's such resistance to the idea of not having a "canon" in a field where we're accustomed to having one. how will we argue against so-and-so's theory that Setsuna actually dies at the end of season one of 00 and everything after is just the last jumbled, confused thoughts of a dying child as his life drains away*?

*this is totally what happens, by the way

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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by HellCat » Fri May 09, 2014 1:12 pm

The Star Wars EU was inconsistent, but only really started to annoy me when a few years ago suddenly everything was apparently declared technically canon. Including stuff like the Marvel comics and the Disney park rides.

If you want a good idea of how to respond to canon issues, check out the wiki that the guys in charge of Star Wars canon have directly praised- TFWiki. A fan maintained Transformers wiki that does alot of homework but at the same time is more than willing to shrug, smile and remind you it's a 30 year old kids franchise that no one expected would become this big.

Which is a hell of alot nicer than 99% of other fandoms where knowing a ton of what is basically made up nonsense is basically used to boast about your e-peeny to strangers.
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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by excalibur2008 » Fri May 09, 2014 9:43 pm

HellCat wrote: 99% of other fandoms where knowing a ton of what is basically made up nonsense is basically used to boast about your e-peeny to strangers.
Which is probably why they some of them have such a [email protected]#tfit when something is rebooted or reconted.

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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by Kuruni » Sat May 10, 2014 1:04 am

Currently, I use SCP Foundation method. It has no one single big canon, but there are several mini-canon that can totally contradict each other.

For example, does Destiny ever run out of juice during battle at Orb? TV series' canon say yes, Special Edition canon say no, and that's it.
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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by monster » Sat May 10, 2014 1:43 am

Kuruni wrote:For example, does Destiny ever run out of juice during battle at Orb? TV series' canon say yes, Special Edition canon say no, and that's it.
That's not a good example. TV says yes, SE is edited for length without necessarily saying no, and remaster says yes again.

In this case, there's not really a contradiction.

A better example would be whether it's Athrun or Lunamaria who picked Shinn up after his meeting with Stella.

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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by gunform1010 » Sun May 11, 2014 2:03 am

ShadowCell wrote:
Kratos wrote:What do fans gain by knowing that some things are more "true" than others?
because that way we can settle internet arguments over whose theory about x should be believed by the rest of us.

that's no surprise, because the whole idea of canon as it originally appears in religious institutions was set to the same purpose. you can't convince others that God is actually a large animate pile of noodles based on these passages from the Gospel of Larry because the Gospel of Larry is not in the canon, and therefore it has no divine authority and speaks to no truth. likewise, you can't argue that the three Star Wars prequels are actually just a weird fever dream concocted by Luke Skywalker's painkiller-addled mind as the medical droids give him a new hand and therefore there was no annoying comedy relief character that invoked some disturbing racial stereotypes and Darth Vader wasn't a totally whiny bitch before he became evil and the Jedi can't sense the evil ultra-powerful Sith Lord when he's sitting right in front of them because they're all idiots and etc, because the canon says no, Jar Jar Binks was a thing and Darth Vader was a totally whiny little bitch before he became evil and the Jedi were idiots and etc and therefore nobody should believe the Luke's-fever-dream theory.

we've been using the idea of canon to shut down arguments for thousands of years. it's no surprise that it's spread to fictional universes in the same way. and since that idea is so old and so ingrained, it's no surprise that there's such resistance to the idea of not having a "canon" in a field where we're accustomed to having one. how will we argue against so-and-so's theory that Setsuna actually dies at the end of season one of 00 and everything after is just the last jumbled, confused thoughts of a dying child as his life drains away*?

*this is totally what happens, by the way
I love TFwiki. :D But honestly I'm trying to do it because I just want to watch a coherent story behind the UC.
Kuruni wrote:Currently, I use SCP Foundation method. It has no one single big canon, but there are several mini-canon that can totally contradict each other.

For example, does Destiny ever run out of juice during battle at Orb? TV series' canon say yes, Special Edition canon say no, and that's it.
How about Kitty Kitten's death? That's one continuity snarl.

EDIT: please use the Edit button instead of double-posting, thanks.

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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by toysdream » Sun May 11, 2014 4:41 am

gunform1010 wrote:But honestly I'm trying to do it because I just want to watch a coherent story behind the UC.
I'm not sure you're going to be successful there. You've basically listed every animated (i.e. official) UC story, but when it comes to conflicts you really only have two problem spots: the Zeta movies (which I think people generally consider to be an alternate-universe take on Zeta) and the First Gundam TV series.

In theory, the First Gundam movies take precedence over the TV series. (That's presumably why they show Sayla in the Core Booster, not the G-Fighter, in the flashback scene in Char's Counterattack.) That's pretty clearly the case as far as the anime is concerned, but when you look at the broader world of side stories and publications it gets a lot less clear-cut.

For example: In the TV series, the White Base crew defeat Ramba Ral and then Crowley Hamon, then go on to battle M'Quve's forces and the Black Tri-Stars. Their final confrontation with the Tri-Stars takes place during the Battle of Odessa, in the middle of which M'Quve tries to launch a nuke at General Revil's forces, and Amuro cuts it down while simultaneously dueling Gaia.

But in the Gundam II movie, the White Base never makes it to Odessa - they're busy fighting Crowley Hamon, and as far as we can tell they miss the battle entirely. So what happened with M'Quve's missile? Did somebody else take care of it, or was there no nuke in the movie continuity? And if the movie continuity really trumps the TV series, then why do the publications keep talking about M'Quve's nuke?

So I don't think it's really cut and dry, and the "true" history of the One Year War seems to be a vague composite of the movie and TV versions as far as everyone in Japan is concerned. Mostly, I think, they just try not to think about it too hard.

-- Mark

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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by ShadowCell » Sun May 11, 2014 6:24 am

toysdream wrote:Mostly, I think, they just try not to think about it too hard.
if you're wondering how he eats and breathes and other science facts
just repeat to yourself, "it's just a show, i should really just relax"


that seems to be codified in the whole "animated=official, black/gray/white" thing, really. doesn't take much hard thinking to get there.

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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by gunform1010 » Sun May 11, 2014 11:40 am

toysdream wrote:
gunform1010 wrote:But honestly I'm trying to do it because I just want to watch a coherent story behind the UC.
I'm not sure you're going to be successful there. You've basically listed every animated (i.e. official) UC story, but when it comes to conflicts you really only have two problem spots: the Zeta movies (which I think people generally consider to be an alternate-universe take on Zeta) and the First Gundam TV series.

In theory, the First Gundam movies take precedence over the TV series. (That's presumably why they show Sayla in the Core Booster, not the G-Fighter, in the flashback scene in Char's Counterattack.) That's pretty clearly the case as far as the anime is concerned, but when you look at the broader world of side stories and publications it gets a lot less clear-cut.

For example: In the TV series, the White Base crew defeat Ramba Ral and then Crowley Hamon, then go on to battle M'Quve's forces and the Black Tri-Stars. Their final confrontation with the Tri-Stars takes place during the Battle of Odessa, in the middle of which M'Quve tries to launch a nuke at General Revil's forces, and Amuro cuts it down while simultaneously dueling Gaia.

But in the Gundam II movie, the White Base never makes it to Odessa - they're busy fighting Crowley Hamon, and as far as we can tell they miss the battle entirely. So what happened with M'Quve's missile? Did somebody else take care of it, or was there no nuke in the movie continuity? And if the movie continuity really trumps the TV series, then why do the publications keep talking about M'Quve's nuke?

So I don't think it's really cut and dry, and the "true" history of the One Year War seems to be a vague composite of the movie and TV versions as far as everyone in Japan is concerned. Mostly, I think, they just try not to think about it too hard.

-- Mark
But since they're unofficial, couldn't we just delete it out of our headcanon?
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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by AmuroNT1 » Sun May 11, 2014 2:34 pm

Honestly, I think you're severely over-thinking this whole thing. Japan doesn't do the same thing with fiction that Americans do; there's nobody over there going "Well, Crossbone was written by Tomino, but the sequels weren't, so only the original happened". There aren't any huge debates or wars over creators' intentions, how much influence the studio had on the franchise, or how <controversial franchise entry>* isn't canon. Things just...are.

Over with Macross, we have the classic example of the TV series being remade into a movie ("Do You Remember Love?"), with some significant plot differences between the two. Shoji Kawamori himself has said that neither version is "canon" to the point where it completely trumps the other, but that the "truth" lies somewhere in between the two adaptations.

When you get right down to it, the only time this kind of thing matters is when there's a direct contradiction between two versions of the story. Going back to Macross, in the TV show Max Jenius stays human-sized, while in DYRL he grows to Zentraedi size to be with Milia. In every subsequent appearance in the franchise, Max is human-sized, meaning that in this case the TV version of events "wins out". But that's really the only time it matters. Things like whether or not White Base fought at Oddessa or M'Quve launching a nuke aren't worth the wrangling of petty details.

*Insert one of the following here: the Prequel Trilogy, Kiss Players, Dragon Ball GT, or write in your choice.
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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by toysdream » Sun May 11, 2014 3:19 pm

gunform1010 wrote:But since they're unofficial, couldn't we just delete it out of our headcanon?
You can delete anything you like out of your personal head-canon - I'm tempted to do that with the entirety of Gundam ZZ! But that doesn't mean you can expect anyone else to do likewise. On the Japan side, it seems like a lot of the elements of the First Gundam TV series are still widely embraced. Otherwise they'd never mention the Gyan, would they?

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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by gunform1010 » Mon May 12, 2014 12:02 am

toysdream wrote:
gunform1010 wrote:But since they're unofficial, couldn't we just delete it out of our headcanon?
You can delete anything you like out of your personal head-canon - I'm tempted to do that with the entirety of Gundam ZZ! But that doesn't mean you can expect anyone else to do likewise. On the Japan side, it seems like a lot of the elements of the First Gundam TV series are still widely embraced. Otherwise they'd never mention the Gyan, would they?

-- Mark
Ok I get that its fluid.
I'm just asking what does internal continuity and the majority of other, especially official works, suggest at a near cohesive series of events.

BTW, I love the Gundam vs Gyan duel. THAT HORROR MUSIC. :D
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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by toysdream » Mon May 12, 2014 12:27 am

I really don't think they have a single "cohesive series of events" on the Japan side. The most complete attempt at a timeline for First Gundam, in Entertainment Bible 39, pretty much reflected only the movie version and left no room for the omitted TV series events. Later publications, like Gundam Officials and The Zeon News, have awkwardly tried to shim in some of the more memorable TV series bits but it's a very awkward fit.

I suppose, if you were trying to get a sense of what the Japan-side publishers assume the overall chronology to be, you might start by looking at Gundam Officials. That's an interesting question that probably merits its own thread.

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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by Kuruni » Mon May 12, 2014 1:44 am

gunform1010 wrote:
Kuruni wrote:Currently, I use SCP Foundation method. It has no one single big canon, but there are several mini-canon that can totally contradict each other.

For example, does Destiny ever run out of juice during battle at Orb? TV series' canon say yes, Special Edition canon say no, and that's it.
How about Kitty Kitten's death? That's one continuity snarl.
Somehow you miss my point totally. There is no one-big-canon, there are several smaller continuities, each are independent from other. Unless there are different in the priority of works (white/gray/black scale), they're equal and won't override other. Instead of try to figure out "one true actual continuity", it's far better to state how the event is different in each continuity, and leave it like that. Lets people choose which version to add to their head canon.

Don't worry, even if there is no one true canon, you can still have lot of fun by waving your head canon around so people can see it, and boast how robust it is (yes, I still talk about head canon, what else it can be? :mrgreen: ).
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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by Zeonista » Mon May 12, 2014 1:18 pm

The Japanese position from the creators' point of view seems to be "story first, continuity second". Make it a good Gundam story (or other anime's story) first, then sweat the small details, if any indeed are judged as needing to be sweated. I feel fairly certain that if several of us wrote out our headcanons for various Gundam universes and showed them to various Gundam creators, we would be applauded for our devoted philosophical fandom, but it wouldn't change anything.

I don't have as much a problem with this loose/contradictory canon as I used to, since I learned about detailed accounts of Japanese history. Pre-modern Japanese history often has multiple accounts of noteworthy events. Heroic characters can have different motivations and actions related to well-known and mutually acknowledged important events in their lives. That's just in the chronicles, without mentioning the influence of epic poems and kabuki plays! So I suspect the mindset over there is not the theologically derived search for "the true account" in Western scholarship, but "choose what you think is best" instead.
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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by toysdream » Mon May 12, 2014 1:24 pm

Yep, and to categorically discard everything from the less-favored version - which seems to be what gunform1010 was expecting - would reduce the pool of available material and limit the number of toys in the toybox.

Like ShadowCell, I'm inclined to look back at the original roots of the term "canon" and observe that the second-century Christians who introduced the idea of the biblical canon didn't just pick one Gospel and say that all the others were rubbish. They accepted the four that they felt were most true, even if they contradicted each other in places. Why should Gundam fans take their field of study more seriously? :-)

When we're debating the "truth" of what happened in the U.C. history, I'd suggest we treat these rival accounts as evidence to be used in the discussion (alongside less "official" sources such as Gundam Century and Tomino's novels). That's how real historians have to do it, after all.

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Re: Fan Consensus on Canon in UC and Reguild

Post by Zeonista » Mon May 12, 2014 3:18 pm

toysdream wrote:Yep, and to categorically discard everything from the less-favored version - which seems to be what gunform1010 was expecting - would reduce the pool of available material and limit the number of toys in the toybox.
This being Gundam, God forbid we remove some of our beloved toys from the shelf because some story is deemed "not official enough". :P
Like ShadowCell, I'm inclined to look back at the original roots of the term "canon" and observe that the second-century Christians who introduced the idea of the biblical canon didn't just pick one Gospel and say that all the others were rubbish. They accepted the four that they felt were most true, even if they contradicted each other in places. Why should Gundam fans take their field of study more seriously? :-)
It's also worth noting that the three Synoptic Gospels were used as "canon" because the sum of their similar features was greater than the differences, and those similarities could be used to present a coherent narrative with an eye to subjective consensus. At the same time, the Gospel of John, set down about 30 years later, was also accepted because the significant events matched the Synoptic Gospels, even if he had some events out of Synoptic sequence, and included details not found in the others that were still deemed correct/useful. In other words, the development of Biblical canon was just as focused on inclusion as exclusion. This is an attitude that should be accepted by fandoms interested in the canon approach.
When we're debating the "truth" of what happened in the U.C. history, I'd suggest we treat these rival accounts as evidence to be used in the discussion (alongside less "official" sources such as Gundam Century and Tomino's novels). That's how real historians have to do it, after all.
I should point out our recent Loum thread, which is an excellent example of this approach in comparing & contrasting the sources to find out what happened in a definitive context from official & unofficial sources. Mark tossed EB 39 out, but MS IGLOO, Tomino's first MSG novel, and Gundam the Origin meshed well, creating a "canon" account.
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