Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

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Nikkolas
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Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by Nikkolas » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:04 pm

Sorry for the proliferation of threads... It's just I've been reading a lot about these SRW games. That plus a quote from some guy who does Build Fighters where he said he wants to give all the series happy endings just kinda inspired this.

Apparently in these Super Robot War games Char and Haman can both be redeemed. Same for some characters from Victory I think? Well villains are almost always my favorite thing about any series and Gundam is no exception. If Char Aznable of all people can be helped then surely there is hope for almost anyone. Or so was my thinking but it seems that is not the case by and large. The rest of the villains are just treated as...well, villains. They just die.

So what Gundam baddies do you think could be redeemed? Are there any where there's just no hope? (also I'm not actually talking about the SRWverse here. They are in their own universe for this)

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Raikoh
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by Raikoh » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:39 pm

Outside of the common SRW choices (I'll list out who I mean by that right now)
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Char, Haman, Four, Bernie, both Purus, Master Asia, and Nicol being the most common.
I think that many antagonists could easily be saved. Again, I'll spoiler this for size and, well, spoilers natch. Also note that not all of them might be "antagonists" per se, but I'm looking at it from what side the main story sees as being protagonistic (which apparently isn't a word...).
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- Pretty much all of Amuro's main rivals from the OYW, obviously.
- Norris Packard. He never really was antagonistic, and was a pretty cool dude. If he survived his battle with Shiro, he could probably chosen to just support Aina's happiness.
- All the major character deaths in IGLOO, except the ones in "Zaku Hunting." Honestly, they could and likely should have survived. For the most part, especially in cases like the Hildolfr, they actually won their battle and only something like terrible luck is what axed them.
- Jerid, Lila, Mouar, Sarah, and Reccoa. None of them are really bad people, they're just people with ambitions and have some unlucky streaks. Sarah and Reccoa, in fact, I heavily see as victims to being manipulated by Scirocco's charm (and likely some Newtype suggestion as well).
- Quess. Because, let's face it, by the time she died, she WAS redeemed, more or less.
- In all honesty, I think that Team Trinity could've had some sort of redemption possible, or at least Nena. If she had some character development after having both her brothers killed and realized how much it sucks to lose loved ones, maybe.
- Zeheart and Fram. If AGE ever appears in SRW, you know that one or both of them are going to be secrets.
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Nikkolas
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by Nikkolas » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:51 pm

Four seems to be a popular choice to save in all spinoff material (and for good reason!!! Must protect my waifu!) but would she count as a villain? Or were you just listing people who tend to be saved?
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Also since you brought up Scirocco, is he savable in your eyes? What about Rau or Treize?

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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by Kratos » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:09 pm

I don't think Rau is salvageable.

He was motivated by how crappy the CE world is and his own abandonment issues, and neither are exactly easy to fix without fundamentally changing the setting that he lives in (especially considering that the latter is probably a byproduct of the former). Maybe in a SRW context, but that probably would depend on how far gone he actually is in SEED; it's a bit difficult to tell when his only defining character traits for 2/3rds of the series were "takes pills sometimes" and "has a Mysterious Mental Link with Mwu". I definitely don't think he could be redeemed in the context of his own world, though.
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:38 pm

Super Robot Wars tends to stick with antagonists who have some degree of good in them; Raikou's post covers the most common ones. Regarding Chronicle and Kathejina, that's so far only happened in a single game and there were a lot of extenuating circumstances behind it. But final boss-level villains like Scirocco and Rau? Never gonna happen. The closest we've ever seen was in SD Gundam G Generation DS, where they had an alternate storyline focusing on antagonists like the Titans, OZ, OMNI Enforcer, etc.

But certain characters can't be saved if their deaths are too important to the story's overall plot; in the recent SRW Z2, we had a couple of obvious examples from Gundam 00's first season and Gurren Lagann, while Code Geass had a possible save depending on how you played. (I don't even need to say the characters' names, really; if you know the shows you KNOW who I'm talking about.)
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by Nikkolas » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:56 pm

What about the good Zabis? I guess Garma surviving is kinda common but how about Dozle? As legendary as Big-zam's Last Stand was (best death in a Gundam series for me) it be cool if he could survive.

Within the actual setting of 0079, do you think they could be saved?

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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by monster » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:02 am

If any of the adult Zabis had survived, Char would probably hunt them down and might never become part of AEUG, among other changes.

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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by Kratos » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:12 am

Even considering Dozle survived, and even assuming he escapes Char's wrath, I'm not sure whether he'd be redeemed. One the one hand, he's very clearly a family man, caring far more about his fellow Zabis than the actual Zeon cause, and by the end of MSG he has a new family of his own to care for. But he's also more than a bit of a war dog. If he stuck around the Earth Sphere, he'd almost certainly be involved in the various remnant uprisings; if he went to Axis like Mineva and Zenna do in the actual story (and avoided being assassinated by Char), then there's a chance he might settle down a bit, but he'd probably end up serving as a rallying point for the remnants there. Unless he went out of his way to avoid that, I don't see him being anything but a villain - an affable villain, sure, but still a villain.
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by BrentD15 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:39 am

Raikoh wrote:Outside of the common SRW choices (I'll list out who I mean by that right now)
Spoiler
Show
Char, Haman, Four, Bernie, both Purus, Master Asia, and Nicol being the most common.
I think that many antagonists could easily be saved. Again, I'll spoiler this for size and, well, spoilers natch. Also note that not all of them might be "antagonists" per se, but I'm looking at it from what side the main story sees as being protagonistic (which apparently isn't a word...).
Spoiler
Show
- Pretty much all of Amuro's main rivals from the OYW, obviously.
- Norris Packard. He never really was antagonistic, and was a pretty cool dude. If he survived his battle with Shiro, he could probably chosen to just support Aina's happiness.
- All the major character deaths in IGLOO, except the ones in "Zaku Hunting." Honestly, they could and likely should have survived. For the most part, especially in cases like the Hildolfr, they actually won their battle and only something like terrible luck is what axed them.
- Jerid, Lila, Mouar, Sarah, and Reccoa. None of them are really bad people, they're just people with ambitions and have some unlucky streaks. Sarah and Reccoa, in fact, I heavily see as victims to being manipulated by Scirocco's charm (and likely some Newtype suggestion as well).
- Quess. Because, let's face it, by the time she died, she WAS redeemed, more or less.
- In all honesty, I think that Team Trinity could've had some sort of redemption possible, or at least Nena. If she had some character development after having both her brothers killed and realized how much it sucks to lose loved ones, maybe.
- Zeheart and Fram. If AGE ever appears in SRW, you know that one or both of them are going to be secrets.
Any room for Stella in there?
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:17 pm

Stella does tend to be saveable, in the times Destiny's been part of the roster. The unfortunate one was SRWZ, where you had to choose between her and Four.
Sakuya: "Whatever. Stop lying and give up your schemes, now."
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by yazi88 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:01 pm

AmuroNT1 wrote:Stella does tend to be saveable, in the times Destiny's been part of the roster. The unfortunate one was SRWZ, where you had to choose between her and Four.
Actually, they are BOTH saveable in SRW Z, only if you do the Real Robot route with Setsuko I believe and get enough SR points.

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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:29 am

The only then-active Zabi I could really see "savable" would be Garma. Even when Char betrayed him to die, Char says it wasn't personal and only due to the "misfortune of his birth" into the Zabi family and seemed to get along with him outside missions too. Then again, Char could've also just been mocking him given his "because he was spoiled" statement during Gihren's propaganda speech at Garma's funeral.
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by Kratos » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:48 am

Garma did always come across as being more cut from the same cloth as, say, Dozle rather than Gihren.

Char was definitely mocking him, but I think Garma believed their friendship to be genuine. Char used him as a means to an end (ie, getting close to the Zabis) and probably "befriended" him for that reason, but the actual betrayal itself comes across as very opportunistic, like the chance was just "too good" to pass up. If either had been in a different place at a different time, I think it's likely that Garma could have been spared, at least until the downfall of the Zabi family itself.
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by Mu La Flaga » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:11 am

yazi88 wrote:
AmuroNT1 wrote:Stella does tend to be saveable, in the times Destiny's been part of the roster. The unfortunate one was SRWZ, where you had to choose between her and Four.
Actually, they are BOTH saveable in SRW Z, only if you do the Real Robot route with Setsuko I believe and get enough SR points.
I can attest to that, as one of my playthroughs I believe my first or second playthrough I pulled this off with Setsuko.
It wasn't easy at all, but it made things interesting, not to mention I saved Sarah and Reccoa later on too.

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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by YazanGable » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:32 pm

Stella is kind of a weird case.
In SRW? Sure she can be saved.
In the context of the actual series - can she be saved? In terms of can she be persuaded to change sides, yes. But she's still ultimately pretty doomed by the nature of who she is.
Between the fact that the Extended process has ultimately mentally destroyed her, and the pill dependency all Extended are subject to, it'd be a long shot for her to really have anything close to a full redemption.
I mean, in theory, ZAFT could get a sense of what pill cocktail they were being fed thanks to the lab they hit, but in terms of keeping Stella hooked up with the stuff, it gets hairier. I mean, you're asking them to keep up a potentially costly medication regimen for a human weapon that had previously been used against them. MAYBE she could get coverage thanks to Shinn's military connections, but that's a big 'if.'

In fact, most of her survival edges here hang on some big 'ifs' with regards to how ZAFT high command would decide to handle her (a faction that, as we'll recall, was previously contented to just left their R&D dissect her once she croaked from withdrawal.)

Best case, Shinn might do his best to make sure what time she has left is relatively peaceful, but it's a VERY long shot for her to get a full blown 'happy ending' under the circumstances Destiny has given her.

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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:50 pm

That's true, but outside of a Super Robot Wars context very few Gundam villains could be saved/redeemed because they're too far down their path to even consider turning back. SRW works because they manage to find extenuating circumstances - for example, SRW R has the villains resurrect Master Asia post-series using DG Cells; if you fulfill the proper steps, the Getter Rays from Shin Getter Robo restore him to full health and Rain helps build a replica Master Gundam so he can join the heroes. Obviously that's not something that could occur within just G Gundam itself.
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:18 pm

Agreed on Stella's case.

There's also the fact that, as it was demonstrated, the Extended weren't totally reliable either considering they can be screwed with in the midst of combat while also having pretty limited combat time before they need more drugs.

And in the end, the whole point of the Extendeds were to produce Natural pilots capable of fighting on equal or greater levels with Coordinators through the use of drugs and mental programming, so it's not like Coordinators themselves would need such a program (unless they can find some variation to further enhance their own troops without the downsides) and I highly doubt the leadership as a whole would waste time and resources over ONE person, unless Dullindal does it just to further cement Shinn's loyalty to him, but even then, I'd see him eventually having Stella killed and making it look like Kira and co. did it and then direct Shinn at them thus events don't really change much.
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by yazi88 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:32 pm

SRW also has some REALLY questionable choices about saving certain enemies to have them join you, take Katejina and Chronicle Ashter from V Gundam. Katejina could (barely) be treated as regreting joining the bad guys and come to her senses but Chronicle Ashter is completely unforgivable for the heinous acts he's done, completely irredeemable.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, even though Haman Karn is a great character in Gundam, she is ALSO completely ruthless and irredeemable cause she killed many, many people with her colony drop and other heinous crimes.

Hell, Sirocco killed less people and actually CARED about some of his subordinates, and even though it was for political situations, he did warn the AEUG (via Sara) about a colony drop.

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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by Gundam420 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:15 am

Does Shinn count?
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Re: Gundam Villains - Who Can Be Saved?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:07 am

Shinn is not and never was a villain.
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