The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:25 am

DragoMaster009 wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:35 am
I take it you're not a big fan of Build Fighters or its sequels?
Gosh, what gave it away? :lol: :P

Seriously... not only is it a creatively bankrupt cash grab, it's the franchise equivalent of masturbation. They made a TV show about their own merchandise line and filled it with self-referential in-jokes. It's an ad campaign masquerading as a half-assed ripoff of Angelic Layer. F*CK. THAT. NOISE. It's the third most pathetic thing I've seen the industry do in the 2010s... and the most pathetic thing I've seen the industry do in the 2010s that didn't involve Robotech.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:25 am

Seriously... not only is it a creatively bankrupt cash grab, it's the franchise equivalent of masturbation. They made a TV show about their own merchandise line and filled it with self-referential in-jokes. It's an ad campaign masquerading as a half-assed ripoff of Angelic Layer. F*CK. THAT. NOISE. It's the third most pathetic thing I've seen the industry do in the 2010s... and the most pathetic thing I've seen the industry do in the 2010s that didn't involve Robotech.
I'm not so sure about that. Even the creators knew that Build Fighter was a cash-grab, yes, but they were aware and passionate enough that there were some moments that shone through, like the Reiji vs. Felini fight.

If anything, Age was the bigger Gundam blunder of this decade. A shame really, since I do like Level 5.

Anyway, was there any galactic congressional body to NUNS? What do colonist have to do when they want to express their opinion to the central government?

Also, why is the VF-4 named "Lightning III". Was there a Lightning II, or did they named it in memory of the F-35 (does the thing even existed in-universe, considering the VF-0's development date and all?) And what did the Vampire inherited from the Lightning III? They were both long-range heavy VF, right?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:46 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 am
I'm not so sure about that. Even the creators knew that Build Fighter was a cash-grab, yes, but they were aware and passionate enough that there were some moments that shone through, like the Reiji vs. Felini fight.
Rarely do I start watching a series and not finish it. I stopped watching Strike Witches partway through when I could no longer contain my discomfort at its blatant lolicon fanservice or shake the feeling that watching it would be enough for Chris Hansen to bust through my wall like the ZOINKS Kool-Aid Man. I stopped watching Stratos4 when it became apparent it was an excuse plot for softcore lesbian fanservice.

Gundam Build Fighters was the first time I stopped watching a show because it felt like it was actively out to insult my intelligence. I was disgusted enough with a franchise that was founded on NOT producing shows just for the sake of selling robot toys turning into a toy commercial that I was only too happy to stop watching. I wouldn't lend anyone on the creative staff bus fare, I'm that appalled by it.


False Prophet wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 am
If anything, Age was the bigger Gundam blunder of this decade. A shame really, since I do like Level 5.
Gundam Age was a mediocre series, true... but they were at least committed to telling a story there, not simply advertising gunpla kits with an excuse plot. I can respect Gundam Age. I can't respect Build Fighters.


False Prophet wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 am
Anyway, was there any galactic congressional body to NUNS? What do colonist have to do when they want to express their opinion to the central government?
That'd be the New UN Government.

Every member nation - be it a planetary government, space colony cluster, or emigrant fleet - has some elected representatives in its parliament. Those elected representatives are responsible for expressing the viewpoint of the member nation they were elected to represent when parliament is in session.

We've seen relatively little of how the New UN Government actually functions. Usually when a MP or some other government functionary shows up they're being held hostage by some terrorist group. The exception is Chelsea Scarlett, protagonist of Macross the Ride, who is mentioned in the Macross Delta novelization to be representing the Macross Frontier emigrant fleet government in the New UN Government c.2067.


False Prophet wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 am
Also, why is the VF-4 named "Lightning III". Was there a Lightning II, or did they named it in memory of the F-35 [...]
Well, there's a bit of a story there.

When the VF-X-4 prototype first debuted (as a model) in Super Dimension Fortress Macross it had no name... it was just "Next Generation Variable Fighter Prototype VF-X-4". This trend continued when it had a cameo in the Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie as a model in Hikaru's quarters. When the production version made its debut in Macross: Flash Back 2012 it was referred to just as "VF-4" or as "VF-4 Valkyrie" in the Macross: Flash Back 2012 Graffiti book.

Macross II's creators were the first ones to assign a name to the VF-4 in 1992 when Masaya was developing a pair of PC Engine video games to accompany the release of Macross II: Lovers Again. The VF-4 was the late-game upgrade in the TRPG Macross: Eternal Love Song. Since it had no transformation and no name, a new transformation was developed for it and it was given the name VF-4 Siren. The VF-4 Siren transformation was more VF-1-like, and the version in Eternal Love Song was given an S-type head and several unique new weapons like funnels and a large beam rifle.

Once Kawamori returned to the franchise for Macross Plus and Macross 7, they went back and filled in some of the history between the ending of the original series in 2012 and the start of Macross Plus in 2040 using a featurette called Macross: A Future Chronicle and a lengthy technical paper in one of the Macross Plus artbooks called Variable Fighter's Aero Report. This is where the VF-4 first got the name Lightning, in honor of the Lockheed P-38 Lightning, which had a similar airframe structure. The name was later changed to Lightning III once it became public knowledge that Lockheed and the USAF had unofficially nicknamed the YF-22 prototype "Lightning II" in honor of the P-38. It seemed a little silly after the YF-22 dropped the name and was officially designated "Raptor", but the F-35 came along and picked up the "Lightning II" name in 2006.

The VF-4's official setting materials do contain an unusual nod to the Macross II version, with a notation that the VF-4's pilots and maintenance personnel nicknamed it the Siren for its exceptional beauty. One of the popular fan nicknames is similarly acknowledged, with some crews calling it the Arrow instead. (AFAIK, it's the only VF to have two known nicknames.)


False Prophet wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 am
(does the thing even existed in-universe, considering the VF-0's development date and all?)
Well, we can say with some certainty that the Lockheed YF-22 would still have existed in Macross history... the YF-22 Lightning II was flown in 1990 and the name wasn't officially changed to Raptor until 1997. Likely they started producing the F-22 (the first EMD lot rolled out in April 1997) and then stopped once it became clear the Raptor would shortly be obsolete due to the introduction of OTM.

Odds are the F-35 doesn't exist in the Macross universe... or at least never got past the experimental phase. The Joint Strike Fighter program was launched in 1993 but the first experimental airframes (X-32 and X-35) didn't fly until September-October 2000. The crash of Alien Starship One and the discovery of overtechnology would've rendered them essentially obsolete before they got past initial flight trials.

The parts of the Unification Wars we see suggest that 5th Generation fighters never gained a foothold, and that the gap between the 4th Generation and the 1st Generation Variable Fighters was bridged by OTM-enhanced 4th Generation fighters like Shin's F-14A+ and original developments built on OTM and rushed into service for the UN Forces and Anti-Unification Alliance like the F203 Dragon II and MiM-31 Karyovin.


False Prophet wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 am
And what did the Vampire inherited from the Lightning III? They were both long-range heavy VF, right?
General Galaxy's VF-14 Vampire basically inherited its space-optimized airframe design from Stonewell/Bellcom's VF-4 Lightning III. I don't believe the VF-4 was ever referred to as a heavy fighter though. I'm pretty sure the VF-14 got that particular title because of its massive size, while the VF-4 was barely bigger than a VF-1.

General Galaxy took the VF-4's basic design and improved on it to address the VF-4's inferior agility in atmospheric flight.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Iris Scope » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:58 pm

Well, it's official! Entirely new Delta movie expected to be released next year according to Kawamori:
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/daily- ... 20/.142917

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by pirx » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:09 pm

I guess that means we won't see any Macross shows this year?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:22 pm

Iris Scope wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:58 pm
Well, it's official! Entirely new Delta movie expected to be released next year according to Kawamori:
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/daily- ... 20/.142917
It's official... we're not getting anything good on the animation front in 2019 or 2020, just more weaksauce Walkure commercials thinly disguised as a Macross story.


pirx wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:09 pm
I guess that means we won't see any Macross shows this year?
Yup.

Thank goodness there's some decent stuff coming out from other sources, like Cycomi's serialization of Macross the First and the VF-11 Master File.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:40 pm

Say, by the time he started producing that copycat Fire Bomber, had Lynn Kaifun fortune gone down spectacularly?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:52 am

Kaiba, in your opinion, how high is the quality of Arcadia-made VF? I am thinking about picking up this VF-0D.

Also, before the QF-2000D, had unmanned aircrafts become common on Earth? And was there a QF-2000A/B/C?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:19 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:40 pm
Say, by the time he started producing that copycat Fire Bomber, had Lynn Kaifun fortune gone down spectacularly?
One could make an excellent case for saying that Kaifun's fortunes hit rock bottom when Minmay fired him, cut off contact with him, and went running straight to the guy he hated most.

We don't know what he did with himself between being fired and joining the civilian contingent of the 41st Large-Scale Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet, but odds are it wasn't exactly high-flying. Running an unlicensed cover band that's ripping off the Galaxy Network's newest chart-toppers does seem like a "hit rock bottom" sort of thing, and doubly so when the cover band is hopelessly unpopular outside of its home fleet.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:52 am
Kaiba, in your opinion, how high is the quality of Arcadia-made VF? I am thinking about picking up this VF-0D.
I'm not much of a toy collector, so take what I say here with a modest ocean's worth of salt.

I've only bought two pieces from Arcadia, and I've been favorably impressed by both... the VF-4G Lightning III and VF-0S. The die-hard collectors tend to consider Arcadia to be overpriced for what you get though, in light of the recent improvements Bandai has made in overall build quality.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:52 am
Also, before the QF-2000D, had unmanned aircrafts become common on Earth? And was there a QF-2000A/B/C?
We should probably make an important distinction between unmanned aircraft that are remotely piloted like the RQ-1/MQ-1 Predator drone currently used by the US and autonomous or semi-autonomous unmanned aircraft like the AI-controlled unmanned fighters of the Macross universe.

Autonomous or semi-autonomous unmanned aircraft built on Overtechnology-based AIs were not very common in the Unification Wars. They were built in limited quantities for the UN Forces using conventional turbofan engine systems, and they generally weren't deployed in full autonomous mode because the AI technology available was kind of flaky. The first unmanned fighter to truly get mass produced was the all-regime QF-3000 Ghost using the initial-type thermonuclear reaction turbine engine (the type seen in the original series).
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by pirx » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:21 am

All these Macross news makes me a very sad panda. No any good shows in foreseeable future :(
Ah well... maybe Mr. Leiji Matsumoto comes up with something

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:52 am

pirx wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:21 am
All these Macross news makes me a very sad panda. No any good shows in foreseeable future :(
Ah well... maybe Mr. Leiji Matsumoto comes up with something
Well, the book front will hopefully not disappoint...

We've got another Master File book coming early next month, for the VF-11 this time, and before that there's one for the M9 Gernsback from Full Metal Panic!. I should be getting that one in tomorrow afternoon.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:12 am

Say, Kaiba, can you please give me a gist of the story behind the Macross-Flying Dog/Victor collaboration? When did it started?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by pirx » Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:54 pm

I wonder - is Flashback 2012 only Macross work featuring VF-4?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:35 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:12 am
Say, Kaiba, can you please give me a gist of the story behind the Macross-Flying Dog/Victor collaboration? When did it started?
That goes all the way back to the beginning.

Japan Victor (JVC) hired Mari Iijima as a singer/songwriter in '82 on the strength of her demo tape. Not long after, the label asked her to audition for the role of Lynn Minmay in Super Dimension Fortress Macross. They've been using Japan Victor to publish Macross's albums ever since. In 2007, JVC decided to compartmentalize all of the anime-related production and promotion activities into a subsidiary company. They had an existing subsidiary company that was called m-serve, which was reorganized to handle all of the animation-related projects, and inherited the name and logo from an old JVC label that'd been dedicated to rock music back in the 80's: Flying DOG.

pirx wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:54 pm
I wonder - is Flashback 2012 only Macross work featuring VF-4?
No, though most of its appearances have been in video games.

Its first post-Flash Back 2012 appearance was in the NEC PC Engine (Turbografx-16/SuperCD) game Macross: Eternal Love Song. It was a TRPG that was produced by Masaya as one of two tie-in/prequel titles for Macross II: Lovers Again. This was also the first time the VF-4 was named or given a transformation. The VF-4 Siren design is rather distinct from the ongoing continuity's VF-4 design, as it had a more VF-1-like Battroid mode and several options that Kawamori's VF-4 doesn't like a massive beam rifle and funnels.

After Kawamori debuted the VF-4's ongoing continuity design and named it "Lightning", it appeared in Macross Digital Mission VF-X for the Sony Playstation, Macross M3 for the Sega Dreamcast, and as an unlockable extra craft for the Playstation 2 game Super Dimension Fortress Macross.

The VF-4 also had a cameo appearance in the manga Macross 7 Trash, where the Macross-7 fleet was shown to use them as training aircraft for new recruits that was involved in a fatal training accident that causes Mahara Fabrio to quit the military, kickstarting the plot. In the light novel Macross the Ride, the Vanquish League ultimate class air racing team sponsored by SMS's parent company Bilra Transportation field a VF-4S as their racer of choice. There's a brief cameo by the VF-4 in Macross the First as well, in the first chapter which shows events from Flash Back 2012.

SoftBank Publishing also released a technical manual for the VF-4 as part of its ongoing Variable Fighter Master File series, though it is unfortunately a case of Critical Research Failure by the writers and doesn't line up at all with the official variant list.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:08 pm

Say, if I knew Japanese (which I would like to learn eventually) and wanted to read more about the world of Macross, which guidebook should I get? And, when will the Macross Compedium be updated?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:10 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:08 pm
Say, if I knew Japanese (which I would like to learn eventually) and wanted to read more about the world of Macross, which guidebook should I get?
Well, Macross Chronicle is the most complete reference work to date... but, as with Gundam and other similarly large bodies of work, there is no one book that would give you everything. It's for that reason that I've got several large bookshelves full of nothing but Macross publications.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:08 pm
And, when will the Macross Compedium be updated?
Your guess is as good as mine. The Macross Compendium wiki tends to get updated in fits and starts, whenever the handful of contributors working on it have a free moment or have something particularly relevant to share. I think most of us are busy with our day jobs and personal projects these days.

The relative scarcity of info for Macross Delta outside of the Blu-ray liner notes and the relative weakness of the series itself hasn't really provided us with enough material to get interested about.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by pirx » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:30 am

Maybe i missed some Frontier info but how did they explain existence of VF-29?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:22 am

pirx wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:30 am
Maybe i missed some Frontier info but how did they explain existence of VF-29?
Didn't they just show Alto the machine?

Anyway, more than one on this thread I have heard about how lazy Satelight seemed to be when it come to fleshing out Delta. Why did this happen anyway? Were they in some kind of financial or structural trouble?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:26 pm

pirx wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:30 am
Maybe i missed some Frontier info but how did they explain existence of VF-29?
Even though the existence of the Vajra was still classified at the time, the Macross Frontier fleet government knew well in advance that its course was going to take it into Vajra space. This was, in large part, because of the fleet's "secret" agenda to locate and secure fold quartz resources since that exotic and impossible-to-synthesize material's game-changing properties would have made the ensuing colony (and its sponsor, the interstellar shipping firm Bilra Transport Co.) immensely wealthy. Consequently, it was taken as read that there was probably going to be armed conflict with the Vajra at some point.

So, when the New UN Government disseminated the partially-redacted plans for the final prototype of the federal New UN Forces' next-gen fighter (the YF-24) the Macross Frontier fleet kicked off two development projects based upon those plans in partnership with the local branches of Shinsei Industry and LAI.

The first of the two development programs was the expected Next Main Fighter development program intended to produce a 5th Generation replacement for the fleet's aging inventory of 4th Generation VF-171s. Shinsei and LAI's joint design team would swiftly produced a YF-24-derivative design that the New UN Forces designated YF-25 and pushed into immediate testing in late 2057. The first trial production lot came off the line in late 2058 and were handed over to SMS for operational evaluation.

The second was a no-expenses-spared program to develop an envelope-pushing anti-Vajra "hypervariable" fighter that would be the fleet's trump card if hostilities with the Vajra escalated to open warfare. It was designed as a completely over-the-top, impractical-for-any-other-purpose exercise in excess because the Vajra were still not a well-understood species and their combat performance was expected to match or exceed that of a 5th Gen main variable fighter. The resulting design Shinsei and LAI produced was bank-breakingly expensive thanks to the vast quantity of fold quartz necessary to manufacture it, and so it remained a largely theoretical exercise until a war with the Vajra actually began in 2059. Fold quartz obtained from slain Vajra was used to complete its prototype, which was designated YF-29 by the New UN Forces, and the prototype had its first sortie over a Vajra hive world before being abandoned by its pilot.

The Macross Galaxy fleet's own 5th Generation next main fighter - the VF-27 - is noted to have been completed in the four-engine form we know because its design was heavily influenced by YF-29 development data LAI leaked to the Macross Galaxy fleet. There was also a certain amount of cross-pollination of hardware and tech between the YF-25 and YF-29 programs, which is why they share so many parts. The VF-25's Tornado Pack was a test article to evaluate the aerodynamic impact of the YF-29's similar built-in heavy quantum beam turret and wingtip rotating engines.

(Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah's own account of the VF-25's development indicates that there was a design competition underway between the Macross Frontier, Macross Olympia, and Macross Galaxy fleets to develop one main fighter that would have been adopted by all three allied fleets. The three Project Triangler VF prototypes were Frontier's YF-25, Olympia's YF-26, and Galaxy's YF-27. Olympia dropped out early because it was unable to resolve design problems with the YF-26, and Galaxy wasn't participating in good faith since their YF-27 was a smoke-and-mirrors routine that bore a rather limited resemblance to the actual YF-27 they'd developed for their own forces. Their early/phony YF-27 shows up in Macross the Ride.)


False Prophet wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:22 am
Anyway, more than one on this thread I have heard about how lazy Satelight seemed to be when it come to fleshing out Delta. Why did this happen anyway? Were they in some kind of financial or structural trouble?
To the best of my knowledge, there were no administrative issues at Satelight.

It's generally [suspected/believed] that the show's producers were so focused on promoting the (very expensive) real idol group Walkure to ensure they got a decent return on investment that everything else about Macross Delta sort of fell by the wayside. Kind of a more extreme version of the Macross 7 problem, where the show's budget went largely to music production, leaving relatively little for animation production and necessitating heavy footage reuse.

Some speculate that the change in format early in development may have played a role. The series was proposed as one cour (13 episodes) and a movie, and was changed to two cour (26 episodes) early in development.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:53 am

Say, Kaiba, what was the Macross fandom like when you joined, or earlier? (For example, which supplementary materials did you pass onto each other, and how?) I have been talking with this guy who started watching anime at the time Macross Plus came to the US, and was instantly into it. But he wasn't aware of a Macross fanbase much later on.

Also, are you aware of any hardcore Macross merchandise collector?

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