The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:14 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:01 pm
Yeah, a lot of times people started watching a show simply because the character designs caught their eyes, and I do remember there were occasions which shows made a big deal about who was the character designers.
Happens A LOT when CLAMP is involved.


False Prophet wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:01 pm
Anyway, there were still things like passports and visas that existed between the fleets, and travelling around in Macross is not like doing it so in the EU now, right?
Kawamori does broadly compare the New UN Government c.2059 to the European Union... though even in the EU a passport is required to travel to some members who haven't yet formally adopted the Schengen Agreement provisions regarding free travel.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:11 am

Say, is this offical manga, or simply fanwork? And if it is official, then who is the author?

https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/3345668?q=weapon

(And here is the painter's Pixiv: https://www.pixiv.net/member.php?id=36083127)

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:19 am

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:11 am
Say, is this offical manga, or simply fanwork? And if it is official, then who is the author?
That's official.

Specifically, that's one of the chapter illustrations from the light novel Macross the Ride drawn by Tomoi Okeda under the penname Tomi Otsuka. It's from Macross the Ride's first chapter "Deep Space Warbird". VF designs were by Tenjin Hidetaka, character designs were by Enami Katsumi, and the novel itself was by Ukyo Odakyu.

That scene is basically the one the kicks off the entire plot... when SMS 1st Lt. Chelsea Scarlett discovered, in the midst of her first real sortie as a member of the SMS Macross Frontier branch's Apollo Platoon, that she couldn't bring herself to pull the trigger. That's what ended up propelling her out of SMS's combat ranks and into the position of a sponsored Vanquish League racer.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:28 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:19 am
That's official.

Specifically, that's one of the chapter illustrations from the light novel Macross the Ride drawn by Tomoi Okeda under the penname Tomi Otsuka. It's from Macross the Ride's first chapter "Deep Space Warbird". VF designs were by Tenjin Hidetaka, character designs were by Enami Katsumi, and the novel itself was by Ukyo Odakyu.

That scene is basically the one the kicks off the entire plot... when SMS 1st Lt. Chelsea Scarlett discovered, in the midst of her first real sortie as a member of the SMS Macross Frontier branch's Apollo Platoon, that she couldn't bring herself to pull the trigger. That's what ended up propelling her out of SMS's combat ranks and into the position of a sponsored Vanquish League racer.
In the illustration was one of the export-variant of the VF-19A/C, right?

Also, is there anything special about the Nothung?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:54 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:28 pm
In the illustration was one of the export-variant of the VF-19A/C, right?
No, that's a VF-19EF Caliburn... the Macross Frontier fleet's locally-developed derivative of the VF-19E that was used as a Special Forces fighter by the fleet's New UN Spacy garrison force and its SMS branch. They were built to serve as a data collection platform during development of the YF-25 Prophecy. The Caliburns were used to evaluate and calibrate some VF-25 hardware like the EGP-03/05 EX-Gear and the GU-17 58mm gunpod.

(Ironically, the EX-Gear the VF-19EF was evaluating for the next-generation fighter was the closest that the VF-19 ever came to overcoming its control problems and excessive g-loadings on the pilot...)


False Prophet wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:28 pm
Also, is there anything special about the Nothung?
The Nothung itself is special.

The VF-19ACTIVE was essentially THE technology demonstrator for the Macross Frontier fleet's 5th Generation "next main fighter" program. Only a few were built, to evaluate bleeding-edge avionics and control technology, materials, and so on. The Nothung was essentially the development mule that tested technology before it went into the YF-25 prototype.

Throwing it into the Vanquish League Ultimate Class races was a sort of "the best place to hide something is in plain sight" sort of data collection methodology, since the league already had plenty of complaining that megacorporations were trying to win by throwing obscene sums of money at the sport (like Team Shinsei fielding a VF-19A custom with improvements drawn from the Fire Valkyrie and other late model customs).
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:51 am

Say, I am reading into the early anime fandom. Kaiba, did C/FO clubs in the yore have any role in the proliferation of Macross or Mecha shows in general?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:02 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:51 am
Say, I am reading into the early anime fandom. Kaiba, did C/FO clubs in the yore have any role in the proliferation of Macross or Mecha shows in general?[/quot]
... my engineering brain isn't coming up with anything coherent for possible meanings of C/FO?
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:22 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:02 pm
... my engineering brain isn't coming up with anything coherent for possible meanings of C/FO?
Well, Cartoon/Fantasy Organizations, before the time people started calling anime as "Japanimation" and these organizations became known as anime club? (They were the first people to fansub, or so I have read.) Was there any Macross fans in America in the 1980s, and did they do anything to bring the show to the West?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:07 am

False Prophet wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:22 pm
Well, Cartoon/Fantasy Organizations, before the time people started calling anime as "Japanimation" and these organizations became known as anime club? (They were the first people to fansub, or so I have read.) Was there any Macross fans in America in the 1980s, and did they do anything to bring the show to the West?
Must be a regional thing, because that's not a term I've heard used before. The ones I know of liked to call themselves things like Japanese Media Club or Foriegn Sci-Fi Society.

There were some western viewers who were exposed to the series either by living on the military bases in Japan when it aired or in bootlegs that made their way to the US, but they're relatively few and far between. America's first real flirtation with Macross was the aborted straight dub by Harmony Gold.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:34 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:07 am
Must be a regional thing, because that's not a term I've heard used before. The ones I know of liked to call themselves things like Japanese Media Club or Foriegn Sci-Fi Society.

There were some western viewers who were exposed to the series either by living on the military bases in Japan when it aired or in bootlegs that made their way to the US, but they're relatively few and far between. America's first real flirtation with Macross was the aborted straight dub by Harmony Gold.
The old guys whom I talked to said organizations what that name existed in places like Denver, Los Angeles, and Philadelphia. But it seems like lately the people who are really into old anime fandom have started using C/FO as an umbrella term that also covers Japanimation Society, Animation Society, etc.

So, can we say that when it comes to the real Macross and not Robotech, Macross Plus makes the series a thing in the West?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:33 am

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:34 am
So, can we say that when it comes to the real Macross and not Robotech, Macross Plus makes the series a thing in the West?
I'd say it was Macross II, honestly.

The Macross II: Lovers Again OVA was the first undiluted Macross title released in the West, and it got an impressive amount of media attention. Practically every anime/manga fanzine in North America devoted the cover article of at least one issue to the OVA. One of North America's longest-lasting anime/manga fanzines, Animerica, devoted a significant portion of its inaugural issue (Vol.1 No.0) to covering the OVA.

(Amusingly, the OVA's release roughly coincided with a peak in the demand for accurate dubbing, so a fair amount of Macross II's coverage also implicitly or explicitly bags on Robotech when discussing the franchise's history. Several articles even took rather overt cheap shots at Robotech II with rather bold statements like "Forget Robotech II, Macross II has landed with a vengeance!".)
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:37 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:33 am
'd say it was Macross II, honestly.

The Macross II: Lovers Again OVA was the first undiluted Macross title released in the West, and it got an impressive amount of media attention. Practically every anime/manga fanzine in North America devoted the cover article of at least one issue to the OVA. One of North America's longest-lasting anime/manga fanzines, Animerica, devoted a significant portion of its inaugural issue (Vol.1 No.0) to covering the OVA.

(Amusingly, the OVA's release roughly coincided with a peak in the demand for accurate dubbing, so a fair amount of Macross II's coverage also implicitly or explicitly bags on Robotech when discussing the franchise's history. Several articles even took rather overt cheap shots at Robotech II with rather bold statements like "Forget Robotech II, Macross II has landed with a vengeance!".)
Even then Robotech was hated? How much then? Did you guys have the definition of "antifans" and "hatedoms" within the anime community back then?

Also, does the Macross fandom has any "superfan"--some one who has contributed a lot to the spreading of the show to America or other countries? Kind of like our Mark Simmons.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:32 am

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:37 pm
Even then Robotech was hated? How much then?
Eh... I wouldn't say "hated" so much as "scorned" or "dismissed".

You have to understand, Robotech made its debut only a few years before the demand for accurate dubs of anime series began to overtake the entrenched industry practice of localizing anime via rewriting. Some of those localization-by-rewrite titles like Voltron, StarBlazers, and Speed Racer had been extremely well-received, and the fact that the shows were originally Japanese did not go unnoticed. The knowledge that these shows had been edited both for localization and for content, partly to make them more appropriate for children, created interest in the uncensored versions of the shows they'd seen as young children. It didn't help that these localization-by-rewrite titles tended to be somewhat... irreverent... with the content of the original shows and by 1989 were starting to prove less profitable as a growing audience for anime started to feel a bit patronized by the rewriters apparent belief that content from another culture would cause their heads to explode. One of the more notorious rewrites that bombed right out of the gate is Harmony Gold's "lost" dub of Dragon Ball, which was so poorly received because of heavy-handed rewriting that changed the names of all the characters (like calling Korrin "Whiskers the Wonder Cat") and edited out the "extreme" violence.

By the time 1992 rolled around, interest in accurate dubbing had grown to the point where distributors had started to take the demand seriously. Rewrites had become "uncool", and were increasingly seen as disrespecting the original Japanese creators, the material itself, and/or the audience watching it.

So, as Macross was taking its first tentative steps into western markets under its own name, Robotech was catching increasing amounts of flak for being a rewrite series. This is largely because Carl Macek, his new company Streamline Pictures, and Harmony Gold refused to just let it die despite its increasing unpopularity. At the same time that US Renditions was releasing an accurate (by the standards of the time) dub of Macross II: Lovers Again with the hobby media gushing about how popular the franchise was in Japan, Macek's Streamline Pictures was grappling with an attempt to resuscitate Robotech by releasing it on VHS. In a rare moment of self-awareness, Macek had tried to meet the growing no-rewrites movement halfway with the "Robotech Perfect Collection" VHS release that included both the Robotech versions of episodes and the original Japanese versions with subtitles. Streamline's staff did a crap job with the subtitles and Robotech and Macek had long ago worn out their welcome, so when it came out opposite Macross II: Lovers Again, Tenchi Muyo! Ryo-Ohki, Porco Rosso, Yu Yu Hakusho, and other 1992 releases that was less front page news and more "a single paragraph in the reviews page". One review I remember reading basically boiled down to "How great it is that we finally have these shows in their original format! Also, Robotech is on the tapes on the off chance anyone gives a sh*t." It was this period where Macek's habits while directing dubs of several fairly big-ticket properties for Streamline earned him the nickname "The Antichrist of Anime" that stayed with him until his death in 2010.

So, really, Robotech wasn't really hated the way it is now that it's actively blocking Macross licensing outside of Japan... it was just sort of dismissed as a product of "the way things used to be", like when that one elderly relative that everybody seems to have busts out the old-timey casual racism at a family gathering all roll their eys and try to gently remind them that you can't talk like that anymore in polite society.

Robotech was pretty much self-hating, as the fandom tore itself apart over whether the TV series, novels, or comic book adaptations were the "true" Robotech throughout the late 80's and into the fandom's first flirtations with the internet in the 90's. They didn't really become hated by other fandoms until Harmony Gold started to actively "protect" Robotech by stopping Macross imports and suing other franchises for increasingly spurious reasons after the franchise officially went online in 2001.


False Prophet wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:37 pm
Did you guys have the definition of "antifans" and "hatedoms" within the anime community back then?
I'm not sure the concept was quite so well-defined as it is now, but the idea was definitely there. When I was a kid the hobbyist community around where I lived liked to call them "bashers" (and, later, "haters"). There wasn't really a sense that they were an organized thing like an anti-fandom, just that they were ZOINKS who liked to verbally beat on whatever you happened to love.

There wasn't even really the modern sense that that kind of person is inherently hypocritical... they were just seen as a course hazard for fandom.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by yazi88 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:08 pm

I have a question, I know its likely because of anime logic... why does Mylene, compared to her other blood related sisters, not adopted ones, have completely different hair color from Max and Milia?

Also, is it common for Zentradi to have pointy ears as the case with Mirage? I believe Veffidas and Klan-Klang had it too, but Mirages seemed more pointy, although I dunno if that was because of her un-named father who might not be human or Zentradi?

I'm curious as to what kind of man married into the Jenius family and survived Max/Milia's judgement, lol

Gamlin had Milia's approval for Mylene, although he was her protege as a pilot.

Its been a very long time since I saw Macross 7 but either I didn't know or that I forgot that Gamlin was Zentradi...

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:08 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:08 pm
I have a question, I know its likely because of anime logic... why does Mylene, compared to her other blood related sisters, not adopted ones, have completely different hair color from Max and Milia?
There's no in-universe justification given for it.

Mikimoto-sensei did experiment with a number of different hair colors for Mylene before settling on pink. The earliest iterations of the character design had more of a punk aesthetic, and blue-green hair. Cleaned-up versions of Mylene's character design that closely resemble the finished version were drawn in four different hair colors: pink, bright green, orange, and a bright blonde. Orange and pink seem to have been the two it came down to in the end (they're the ones with the most sketches).


yazi88 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:08 pm
Also, is it common for Zentradi to have pointy ears as the case with Mirage? I believe Veffidas and Klan-Klang had it too, but Mirages seemed more pointy, although I dunno if that was because of her un-named father who might not be human or Zentradi?
Zentradi character designs first started being drawn with pointy ears in Macross: Do You Remember Love?. Their ears came to a very subtle point, even less visible than those of the Vulcans in Star Trek. That was their standard design up until Macross Frontier, and even in many works after Macross Frontier. It was the Zolans who had the full-on anime elf ears.

Macross Frontier put more of a point on the ears of the Zentradi, though for some reason just a few of the female Zentradi characters have those large pointy ears that fan out to either side. Most are drawn with the same ears as the males or the more subdued DYRL? pointed ears, like Chelsea Scarlett or Angers 672.

Klan Klan was a pure-blood (but natural born) Zentradi, and she had the aberrant elf ears. There's no explanation for it except possibly fanservice or making them easier to tell apart from the human characters when they're not green or a similarly visible color.


yazi88 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:08 pm
I'm curious as to what kind of man married into the Jenius family and survived Max/Milia's judgement, lol
Well, Gamlin Kizaki supposedly passed muster... but he and Basara are the only known love interests for one of Max and Milia's daughters in the main timeline. Komilia in the DYRLverse was romantically involved with her wingman Lott Sheen, who looks suspiciously like a squarejawed version of Lupin III.


yazi88 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:08 pm
Gamlin had Milia's approval for Mylene, although he was her protege as a pilot.
Well, yeah... and Milia was doing that stereotypical Japanese mom schtick of trying to arrange a marriage for her kid, so naturally she was picking handsome young men with good career prospects. As one of Milia's proteges and a natural ace who graduated from flight school a full year early, he was obviously marked out as a future high-flier. (Considering that he made Captain by the time he'd turned 20, that's nothing to sneeze at.)


yazi88 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:08 pm
Its been a very long time since I saw Macross 7 but either I didn't know or that I forgot that Gamlin was Zentradi...
Gamlin is a human, but he's at least slightly unconventional since his family are Mars colonists from H.G. Wells City.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by yazi88 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:20 pm

Thank you. For some reason the Macross wiki is saying that Gamlin is Zentradi... I know its a wiki and that its not the best source of info but I found that to be very odd since I never recalled it ever being mentioned by him in the show or any actual source material...

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by AceWhatever » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:37 am

Odd. Where'd this misinformation about Gamlin's species come from? It's been on that wiki page since the first revision in 2013 and NOBODY ever challenged the claim? Nothing in M7 ever remotely implied that Gamlin was Zentradi in any way, especially since Macross in the 90's had already settled on Zentradi's identifying characteristic being their pale green-ish skin which Gamlin doesn't have (and also Milia for some reason and OH GOD I'm falling down that rabbit hole again). Ignorance is a helluva drug...

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:34 am

yazi88 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:20 pm
Thank you. For some reason the Macross wiki is saying that Gamlin is Zentradi... I know its a wiki and that its not the best source of info but I found that to be very odd since I never recalled it ever being mentioned by him in the show or any actual source material...
The Macross Wikia is wildly inaccurate at the best of times... they don't seem to have anyone there who's policing the edits for accuracy or proper source citation. So editors just throw up whatever. Wild, unfounded supposition and an array of jossed fan theories abound there.


AceWhatever wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:37 am
Odd. Where'd this misinformation about Gamlin's species come from? It's been on that wiki page since the first revision in 2013 and NOBODY ever challenged the claim? Nothing in M7 ever remotely implied that Gamlin was Zentradi in any way, especially since Macross in the 90's had already settled on Zentradi's identifying characteristic being their pale green-ish skin which Gamlin doesn't have (and also Milia for some reason and OH GOD I'm falling down that rabbit hole again). Ignorance is a helluva drug...
No idea. The Macross Wikia is a near-useless resource because there's nobody there acting to make sure things that get added are actually sourced from somewhere. The site presents a lot of baseless fan theories as fact and has an enormous amount of inaccurate information.

The official line on the Zentradi has always been that the vast majority are practically indistinguishable from your average, garden variety human. They just also happen to be an Amazing Technicolor Population among which the range of skin tones includes the standard human ones as well as more exotic colors like green and lavender. That grey-green pallor may be a variation or it may just be that they don't get much sun living perpetually in space and having no windows on their ships.

Some fans are determined to find significance in insignificant things, and will often assume any character who has an unusual appearance must be an alien even it if makes zero sense in context. One of the more popular theories like that was that any character with an unusual hair color was part-Zentradi... even though this theory obviously doesn't pan out even in the series that "inspired" it (Macross 7) given that Max has blue hair. Back when the Macross Frontier series was first airing there were all kinds of theories circulating about the characters who had unusual physical traits like Mina Roshan. Fans theorized that her dark skin and dark eyes meant that she was an alien, and a few even suggested she was a Protodeviln... she was, in fact, just a human of Indian descent.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:56 am

You know what? It would actually be amazing if any anime/manga spend time talking about where does the weird natural-born hair colors come from. Also, have anyone tried to clone human with Zentrandi technology? And Zentrandi still practice cloning in N.U.N., right? What is the citizenship status of a clone?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:27 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:56 am
You know what? It would actually be amazing if any anime/manga spend time talking about where does the weird natural-born hair colors come from.
Odds are that would result in an incredibly frustrating show to watch... the most common reason that characters in anime and manga are given unusual or impossible hair colors and/or styles is to make it easier for the audience and artists to differentiate characters who would otherwise look very similar. (There have been a few shows where the self-referential humor has made things like the huge irises on anime eyes out to be fashion contact lenses, and the exotic hair colors out to be dyejobs.)

Surely you've seen the jokes about how Akira Toriyama only knows how to draw four or five characters, or how all male Gundam SEED characters have the exact same face and can only be told apart by hairstyle.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:56 am
Also, have anyone tried to clone human with Zentrandi technology?
Yes. The New UN Government initiated a human cloning program using cloning technology obtained from Zentradi ships in May 2010. Its primary goal was to assist the population recovery of the human species, though it was also used to duplicate individuals who possessed essential skills and training to provide sufficient trained crews for the first generation of emigrant ships.

Mass cloning of humans went on for thirty years, until the program was suspended in December 2030 when sharp increases in the frequency of hereditary children's diseases were detected and traced back to overuse of cloning technology to increase the human population. (The number of individuals in the gene pool had grown massively, but the diversity of the gene pool hadn't kept up.)

At some point thereafter, the New UN Government banned the use of cloning technology on its citizens... which was first mentioned in Macross Delta's movie, when the Aerial Knights reveal that Mikumo is a clone whose creation was a violation of interstellar law.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:56 am
And Zentrandi still practice cloning in N.U.N., right?
Nope. They're making babies the natural way.

Klan Klan's issues with the micloning system are attributed to a rare genetic abnormality that randomly emerged due to her having been conceived naturally.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:56 am
What is the citizenship status of a clone?
Clones have the same rights as any living person under the New UN Government... though the government has apparently banned the creation of clones.
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