The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

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False Prophet
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:20 pm

It's kind of weird to think that Macross 7 was that big of a change in tone. I mean, it wasn't as much as when you finished Victory and moved to G. 7 felt like a natural evolution of the metaplotline from the original.

Or maybe it was because Plus came out before 7 and was an instant favorite for almost everyone watched it? That 7 is not Plus made them uncomfortable?

And speaking of Kawamori, I''ve noticed that recently there were more people making the argument that Kawamori probably should take a step back from Macross and let someone hold the reins. They cited Zero's and Delta's failure, as well as Frontier's success by treading familiar water. Do you guys think this idea has any validity.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:20 pm
It's kind of weird to think that Macross 7 was that big of a change in tone. I mean, it wasn't as much as when you finished Victory and moved to G. 7 felt like a natural evolution of the metaplotline from the original.

Or maybe it was because Plus came out before 7 and was an instant favorite for almost everyone watched it? That 7 is not Plus made them uncomfortable?
When you think about it, Macross 7 was a pretty radical departure from what had come before... Macross II: Lovers Again followed Do You Remember Love?'s plot beats and themes pretty closely, while Macross Plus was The Un-Macross, having very few Macross tropes and themes apart from the crowbarred-in love triangle (which is explainable in that it wasn't originally a Macross project). Going from those two not-so-lighthearted stories to a brightly colored, near-super robot-like school of design with a painfully 90's Japanese rock band fighting emotion vampires by rocking out at them is a hell of a switch.

All told, neither camp really had anything unpleasant to say about Macross Plus except that it didn't feel like a proper Macross story... because it wasn't one. The fighting in the fanbase always came down to Macross II vs. Macross 7 as the "True" or "Superior" sequel. It's long since died down, since both parties came to a basic agreement that the real answer was Frontier all along.


False Prophet wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:20 pm
And speaking of Kawamori, I''ve noticed that recently there were more people making the argument that Kawamori probably should take a step back from Macross and let someone hold the reins. They cited Zero's and Delta's failure, as well as Frontier's success by treading familiar water. Do you guys think this idea has any validity.
... they cited Delta's failure?

WHAT FAILURE?

Granted, it's didn't make roughly ALL THE MONEY the way Macross Frontier did... but Macross Delta has been an unqualified commercial success. Walkure plays to packed stadiums, albums fly off the shelves, they have two feature films (one of which is not a compilation movie), several video games, several manga titles, light novel adaptations, the DX Chogokin line selling like mad as always, multiple plamodel and traditional model kit lines, a hit mobile game, and enough character goods to fill the mariana trench.

It's not the best Macross show out there, but in no objective sense is it a failure.

Frontier was an absolute crushing success because it took familiar themes to new places and presented the audience with an incredibly well-developed story and cast. There was something there for everyone. Old fans, new fans, mecha fans, idol fans, fans of lighthearted comedy and romance, fans of serious drama and action, the works. It was the story that had everything, and it still makes money more than a decade after its story ended in a way that few anime titles can.

Personally, I haven't seen anyone suggest that Kawamori needs to step back from the franchise. I've seen various fans suggest that he's phoning it right the f*ck in with his design works for Macross Delta, given how heavily Macross Delta borrows from Macross Frontier, Macross 30, and AKB0048, and how several "new" designs like the VF-31's Armored Pack are kludges of existing art assets from previous shows.

I think Kawamori'll be fine for a while yet, though I know a number of fans suspect he's grooming Tenjin Hidetaka to one day take over the franchise after their collaboration on Macross R.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by AceWhatever » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:49 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 pm
Personally, I haven't seen anyone suggest that Kawamori needs to step back from the franchise.
There was a bit of that going around in the early days of Frontier and just after the TV show ended. Mostly people saying Kawamori should just design the transforming planes and leave the story and characters to someone else. And even before Frontier the direction the franchise was taking with regards to how music went from just music to some mystical sci-fi mumbo jumbo in Zero and 7 didn't sit well with some people.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:57 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 pm
When you think about it, Macross 7 was a pretty radical departure from what had come before... Macross II: Lovers Again followed Do You Remember Love?'s plot beats and themes pretty closely, while Macross Plus was The Un-Macross, having very few Macross tropes and themes apart from the crowbarred-in love triangle (which is explainable in that it wasn't originally a Macross project). Going from those two not-so-lighthearted stories to a brightly colored, near-super robot-like school of design with a painfully 90's Japanese rock band fighting emotion vampires by rocking out at them is a hell of a switch.

All told, neither camp really had anything unpleasant to say about Macross Plus except that it didn't feel like a proper Macross story... because it wasn't one. The fighting in the fanbase always came down to Macross II vs. Macross 7 as the "True" or "Superior" sequel. It's long since died down, since both parties came to a basic agreement that the real answer was Frontier all along.
I still think 7 wasn't that weird of a transition. I mean, just look at how Mazinger, Getter and UC Gundam got into the "weird" territory as time went on. As for 7, a lot of the rules the events played by had been set down or implied in the original series, right?
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:26 pm
WHAT FAILURE?

Granted, it's didn't make roughly ALL THE MONEY the way Macross Frontier did... but Macross Delta has been an unqualified commercial success. Walkure plays to packed stadiums, albums fly off the shelves, they have two feature films (one of which is not a compilation movie), several video games, several manga titles, light novel adaptations, the DX Chogokin line selling like mad as always, multiple plamodel and traditional model kit lines, a hit mobile game, and enough character goods to fill the mariana trench.

It's not the best Macross show out there, but in no objective sense is it a failure.

Frontier was an absolute crushing success because it took familiar themes to new places and presented the audience with an incredibly well-developed story and cast. There was something there for everyone. Old fans, new fans, mecha fans, idol fans, fans of lighthearted comedy and romance, fans of serious drama and action, the works. It was the story that had everything, and it still makes money more than a decade after its story ended in a way that few anime titles can.

Personally, I haven't seen anyone suggest that Kawamori needs to step back from the franchise. I've seen various fans suggest that he's phoning it right the f*ck in with his design works for Macross Delta, given how heavily Macross Delta borrows from Macross Frontier, Macross 30, and AKB0048, and how several "new" designs like the VF-31's Armored Pack are kludges of existing art assets from previous shows.

I think Kawamori'll be fine for a while yet, though I know a number of fans suspect he's grooming Tenjin Hidetaka to one day take over the franchise after their collaboration on Macross R.
I saw that idea mostly on Vietnamese forums, so it can just be a regional things. Fans here rarely buy any merchandises, since they are quite expensive and you've got to go out of your way to find, place order, and then wait forever until they finally import them (This is why I only buy my non-Gunpla model kits by asking my relatives in Japan to buy and ship them). CD albums? At best they care just enough to pirate the MP3. They might not know or care that much about merchandise or spin-off material in general.

(That said, are there even any successful mecha mobile game released outside of Japan? I know that the SRW games have been doing not so bad.)

With that said, from here Delta really seemed like a failure when putting next to Frontier. Frontier came out just around the time the Vietnamese fansub scene grew exponentially, and it, Gundam 00 and Code Geass (and Gurenn Lagann to a lesser extend) basically became the mecha anime of a generation. When I started talking with people on the Internet, which was around 2012-2013, there were still heated discussions and ship wars about Frontier. But when Delta came out, there was... nothing? Nada. People just promptly forgotten about it even when it was airing.

And about Frontier's "treading familiar water", I just think that it is something of a generational counter-reaction. You know, like a lot of children thinking what their parents like is lame. And then as fansubbing became bigger, people got access to more mecha shows, which could be a cause making them to think that Frontier seems a bit too safe. At least there were a lot less holes in Frontier for anti-fans to poke when compared to Code Geass and Gundam 00.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:31 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:57 am
I still think 7 wasn't that weird of a transition. I mean, just look at how Mazinger, Getter and UC Gundam got into the "weird" territory as time went on. As for 7, a lot of the rules the events played by had been set down or implied in the original series, right?
Mazinger and Getter Robo are super robot shows... they already have a VERY strained relationship with reality. Gundam's Universal Century likewise already prominently featured psychic powers that were already crossing the line into the realm of the truly supernatural like speaking with the dead from a very early point. Even the stuff in more recent titles like Unicorn and Narrative isn't very far outside the norm already set by the earliest Gundam features.

Macross 7 was a much more radical divergence from the norm, given that Basara wasn't a soldier and actively disliked the military, that the enemies were space kaiju and not a clone army, and that music was now the primary weapon instead of being a tool for peaceful communication.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:57 am
I saw that idea mostly on Vietnamese forums, so it can just be a regional things.
... yeah, that's definitely a regional attitude... and one with no factual basis.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:57 am
(That said, are there even any successful mecha mobile game released outside of Japan? I know that the SRW games have been doing not so bad.)
Most aren't, but that's not really my thing so I cannot say for sure.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:57 am
With that said, from here Delta really seemed like a failure when putting next to Frontier. Frontier came out just around the time the Vietnamese fansub scene grew exponentially, and it, Gundam 00 and Code Geass (and Gurenn Lagann to a lesser extend) basically became the mecha anime of a generation. When I started talking with people on the Internet, which was around 2012-2013, there were still heated discussions and ship wars about Frontier. But when Delta came out, there was... nothing? Nada. People just promptly forgotten about it even when it was airing.
Most any Macross title is going to come off looking a little lacking compared to the gargantuan impact and success that Macross Frontier enjoyed... it's like declaring every other mecha anime franchise a failure on the grounds that they don't sell as much merchandise as Gundam. In other words, it's just a downright silly claim.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Mafty » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:50 pm

When you compare Macross 7 to G Gundam (oddly both were released in 1994) they are both notably different (and way less serious) than their previous entries. However when you compare Macross to Gundam, Gundam is often darker to begin with(I'm not saying one is better than the other, just they have different tones). So the tone shift is a bit more jarring in that case; especially because Gundam went back to being realtivly dark, While Macross remained more optimistic and a bit whimsical in it's setting.
Compare Gundam Seed ( Genetic War, War Crimes) and Gundam 00 (Anti Heroes as leads, Terrorisms, Child Soldiers,) to Macross Frontier (it does have an Alien War, Relationship issues and conspiracies; but its mitigated with romantic comedy aspects, in-jokes to previous series, and bubbly idol music). So while neither franchise every really got as silly as those two entries, Macross generally managed a lighter tone overall.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:46 pm

Okay, so we can all agree that Delta is not a failure, right? But then how should we response to people saying in that case, what can stop Satelight to do it again with the next entry? If they can get away with recycling a lot of stuffs from Frontier once, then what stop them to do it the second time?

Personally, I think that it's too soon to say anything. There is an equal chance for Kawamori to take the experimental route the next time around, right? Satelight seems like they are in a good financial position to take a risk.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:26 am

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:46 pm
Okay, so we can all agree that Delta is not a failure, right?
Yes, in strictly objective terms there is no argument whatsoever for the series being a failure.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:46 pm
But then how should we response to people saying in that case, [...]
I'm told the best approach to dealing with trolls is to ignore them.

Alternatively, you can point out that the series has been a commercial success and that Walkure still sells out whole stadiums at lightning speed well after their series ended, and that shows that don't make money don't get one film, never mind two.


False Prophet wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:46 pm
[...] what can stop Satelight to do it again with the next entry? If they can get away with recycling a lot of stuffs from Frontier once, then what stop them to do it the second time?
Kawamori hates doing the same thing repeatedly, so his own natural artistic tendencies are the most likely thing to prevent the next Macross story from being similar to this one.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Mafty » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:30 am

Kawamori does seem to like experimenting with the mech genre. In fact many of his shows(Escaflowne, M3, Nobunaga The Fool, Aquarion) are more Science Fantasies with Mech's than Sci Fi. Macross usually avoids going the fantasy route (though the bird human in Zero, and Some mystical elements in 7 and Delta come close).

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:13 am

Mafty wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:30 am
Kawamori does seem to like experimenting with the mech genre. In fact many of his shows(Escaflowne, M3, Nobunaga The Fool, Aquarion) are more Science Fantasies with Mech's than Sci Fi.
Kawamori does seem to like playing with various aspects of mysticism in some of his work, something he seems to have developed a taste for starting from Air Cavalry Chronicles, the project that became The Vision of Escaflowne.

(Mind you, like in Macross, some of the seemingly magical technology in shows like Nobunaga the Fool or The Vision of Escaflowne is actually veering into Clarke's Third Law territory like Isaac Newton's machine for altering fate or da Vinci's war armors tapping into leylines as a power source.


Mafty wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:30 am
Macross usually avoids going the fantasy route (though the bird human in Zero, and Some mystical elements in 7 and Delta come close).
In Macross, it's more a product of Clarke's Third Law.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

One of the more amusing "reality ensues" developments that's occurred in the Macross franchise starting in the Macross 7 TV series is the ought-to-have-been-obvious point that the fantastically advanced alien technologies Earth acquired from the Supervision Army and Zentradi were the Protoculture's Keep It Simple Stupid, lowest bidder mass-produced military hardware built as economically as possible with the intention of being disposable. It was in Macross 7 that we got our first look at the ancient Protoculture's more advanced toys, which shifted the whole civilization over the line into being "Sufficiently Advanced" aliens under Clarke's Third Law. Later titles simply kept that aspect of them, but didn't really shift them any further in that direction.

The ancient Protoculture had, as a species, reached a level of technological prowess where warping space and time was utterly unremarkable and they'd hit the level of tampering with the fundamental forces and laws of reality with varying degrees of success. We know they had the technology to suspend or slow down entropy, had invented semi-perpetual energy generation, and come up with a way to violate conservation of mass to build things without all of that fuss about acquiring raw materials.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by DragoMaster009 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:50 pm

Say Seto Kaiba, what's your opinion on Macross Zero anyway?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:43 pm

DragoMaster009 wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:50 pm
Say Seto Kaiba, what's your opinion on Macross Zero anyway?
My opinion?

It's a beautifully-animated OVA with some of the best-choreographed VF combat sequences in the entire franchise.

Mind you, that's about all the praise it deserves. Its story so badly paced and so impenetrable at times that it's very easy to be left feeling like the OVA has an old school Excuse Plot intended to justify a string of action scenes. It has many of the usual prequel problems, some of which are explained away in supplemental publications. It would have been less problematic if they hadn't been so dead-set on using Roy Focker. Then, having some other VF test pilot be involved with Aries Turner and Hikaru-substitute Shin Kudo would've been less awkward. Its music is forgettable and its events are inconsequential in the greater Macross setting. It's mostly remembered for being weird, and for its amazing battle scenes.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by pirx » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:38 am

Macross Zero gave us only time where we can observe transformation sequence from inside the cockpit. When i watched it i felt like arround middle of Episode 3 storyline fell apart and at the end it was like "meh". Frontier's "movie" sort of rectified Zero's ending also tying some of the characters to the Frontier - like Ranka and Sheryl are descendants of Nome line.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:42 am

pirx wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:38 am
Macross Zero gave us only time where we can observe transformation sequence from inside the cockpit. When i watched it i felt like arround middle of Episode 3 storyline fell apart and at the end it was like "meh".
Yeah, it didn't really have a lot of impact.

pirx wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:38 am
Frontier's "movie" sort of rectified Zero's ending also tying some of the characters to the Frontier - like Ranka and Sheryl are descendants of Nome line.
Just Sheryl, actually... and that connection was drawn in the TV series as well.

Sheryl Nome is the orphaned granddaughter of Macross Zero's Mao Nome. Mao Nome became a xenobiologist in the years after Macross Zero and led the infamous 117th Research Fleet in their investigation of the Vajra after first contact in 2040. Mao's daughter and her husband lived and worked in the Macross Galaxy fleet, and the two were staunch opponents of the fleet's plans to mandate adoption of implant tech among its residents. Sheryl was orphaned after her parents were assassinated for their views by the pro-implant faction, and would later end up being taken in by one of Mao's former students, Grace O'Connor, and was deliberately infected with the V-type bacterium as a candidate (Code: "Fairy 9") to replace the missing (and presumed dead) Ranka (Code: "Little Queen").

Ranka Lee is the orphaned daughter of 117th Research Fleet xenobiologist Ranshe Mei, a student of Dr. Mao Nome's who was deliberately infected with the V-type bacterium by fellow researcher Grace O'Connor so her baby (Ranka) would contract it in utero and produce a being that would theoretically be able to communicate with (and in practice, control) the Vajra. Ranka's only connection to Mao Nome is that her mother was one of Mao's proteges in the 117th Research Fleet.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by pirx » Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:05 pm

Sorry Seto, by "movie" i meant that feature they were shooting in Frontier - about Macross Zero events. Where Ranka had to play Mao and Alto - Shinn.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Mafty » Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:54 pm

So are Ranka and Brera really siblings? If so why did nobody try to make Brera into a V-Type carrier? Or was he born before the project started? Sorry if I'm overthinking this but I know there's a novel, does that explain things in more detail?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:44 pm

Mafty wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:54 pm
So are Ranka and Brera really siblings? If so why did nobody try to make Brera into a V-Type carrier? Or was he born before the project started? Sorry if I'm overthinking this but I know there's a novel, does that explain things in more detail?
Yeah, Brera is Ranka's actual biological brother.

The only way to make a V-type carrier who wasn't going to contract an Incurable Cough of Death and die as a result was to infect them in utero. It's not clear when exactly Grace conceived of the idea to create her own phony Vajra queen, but Brera's a bit over 3 years older than Ranka so likely wasn't a candidate due to lack of access to the V-type bacterium at the time.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by False Prophet » Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:26 am

Okay, so any thought on this news: https://twitter.com/kusaikaze11/status/ ... 9450473472

A Frontier short movie in the 2020s?... Okay, are we bringing back every big mecha show in the mid-2000s? We've got that 00 stageplay, then the Code Geass movies, and now this. What is next? Gurenn Lagann?

What is the chance of this being a concert movie?

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Mafty » Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:18 am

I do hope there is at least some mech action in the short.

It would also be neat to have more mecha shows, even if they are sequels/ reboots.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:19 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:26 am
Okay, so any thought on this news: https://twitter.com/kusaikaze11/status/ ... 9450473472

A Frontier short movie in the 2020s?... Okay, are we bringing back every big mecha show in the mid-2000s? We've got that 00 stageplay, then the Code Geass movies, and now this. What is next? Gurenn Lagann?

What is the chance of this being a concert movie?
I think it's a risky move, putting a short for a much more popular Macross title ahead of a movie for one that's a pale shadow of its popularity. Good move for getting buns in seats, BAD move in that it might lead to a two hour film being overshadowed by a couple minutes of animation from a better series.
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