The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

[DragoMaster009]

Don't they have any other shows to fall back on when the license for Robotech and its component shows ends in a couple years and they can't renew it for whatever reason?

[Iris Scope]

Don't they have any other shows to fall back on when the license for Robotech and its component shows ends in a couple years and they can't renew it for whatever reason?

They did try with Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump in the 80s but didn't work out.

[Seto Kaiba]

Don't they have any other shows to fall back on when the license for Robotech and its component shows ends in a couple years and they can't renew it for whatever reason?

Nope. Over the years, Harmony Gold allowed pretty much all of their licenses to expire without attempting to renew or expand them. Robotech was their biggest success in anime localization, and it was a commercial flop that never managed better than mediocre ratings. They didn't see a lot of point in hanging on to licenses for works that were not profitable or had bombed in test screenings like their butchered version of Megazone 23.

They eventually broke even on Robotech, so they hung onto that one for the steady trickle of licensing revenue... but that's all.

[Iris Scope]

@Seto Kaiba Do you think personally that Robotech also came out too close to when Transformers was still on the air and kids were too busy collecting Optimus Prime and Bumblebee toys to care about the Veritechs? I ask because technically a show is like a big commercial for toy merchandise and wouldn't HG have to worry also about making a profit on that end?

[Dark Duel]

Hey, speaking of which, wasn't there a Transformers toy released back in the '80s that was basically a VF-1 with Autobot markings? I wanna say it was G1 Jetfire.

EDIT: To be more precise, it was a VF-1S. And yeah, it was Jetfire.

[False Prophet]

So besides Robotech, what else does Harmony Gold do?

Other than Robotech, I believe they were the first company before Funimation to attempt to dub Dragon Ball in the 80s. Also, they did a dub of the Lensman movie which had the Japanese score replaced with typical HG fashion American music.

That Lensman dub was just terrible. It and Techno Police 21C were the only two anime movies I watched not because of entertainment or quality, but for their relative notoriety amongst early American fandom.

And speaking of dub, didn't someone on this thread mentioned that there is a Macross series dubbed in English by Hong Kong/Taiwan actors? Was it true that these same two countries also dubbed a majority of kung-fu movies showed in America back in the 1960s and 1970s?

Hey, speaking of which, wasn't there a Transformers toy released back in the '80s that was basically a VF-1 with Autobot markings? I wanna say it was G1 Jetfire.

EDIT: To be more precise, it was a VF-1S. And yeah, it was Jetfire.

I have always been wondering how big the original Diaclone toys back in Japan compared to Transformers after it had been re-imported? And, if Shoji Kawamori were to have a chance creating his own Transformer today, what kind of machine would it be?

(On a side note, do you live in Austin? I noticed your "Location" tagline.)

[Seto Kaiba]

@Seto Kaiba Do you think personally that Robotech also came out too close to when Transformers was still on the air and kids were too busy collecting Optimus Prime and Bumblebee toys to care about the Veritechs? I ask because technically a show is like a big commercial for toy merchandise and wouldn't HG have to worry also about making a profit on that end?

Ironically, the first link in the chain of terrible decisions that led to Robotech's existence was the model kit company Revell fairly drooling over the money Hasbro was raking in with Transformers.

You see, Revell was basically the regifted fruitcake of the model kit industry. They were fresh off another brief period of having been bought by another company and spun off as a non-performing asset after not even 3 years when some imbecile on staff noticed transforming robot toys were hot and decided the company should get into that. Those familiar with Revell's history will note that this wasn't the first time Revell's leadership made a very stupid decision to go all-in on a trend they didn't understand that was only peripherally related to the company's core business and lost flipping great wodges of cash in the bargain. So, green-eyed jealous of the money Hasbro was raking in with Transformers, Revell went to Takara and licensed a bunch of robot kits from the various Takara kit lines like Macross, Orguss, and Dougram and brought in Andrew Helfer to try to get a Transformers knockoff out there as a comic book series published by DC. Robotech Defenders was a complete and unqualified disaster that was canceled two issues into a three issue limited series.

Stuck with a bunch of unsellable repackaged Takara kits and an appalling amount of red ink, Revell tried to elbow its way into Harmony Gold's plans to dub Macross. They reckoned if they could get a TV series on the air for the sake of promoting the failed kit line, they could at least divest themselves of the inventory they had and turn some kind of profit. Thus, Carl Macek's wretched abortion Robotech was shat into existence to satisfy HG's new partner Revell and promptly proceeded to go almost unnoticed. The resulting loss left Revell on the ropes AGAIN and resulted in them getting bought out by Odyssey Partners and merged with Monogram to form Revell Monogram.

Stiff competition for ratings from - you guessed it - Transformers, as well as other toy-driven cartoons like G.I. Joe and practically every other 80's property people actually remember left Robotech out in the cold with an almost comically misaimed toy line of at-best indifferent quality that didn't sell worth a damn. By the time Harmony Gold decided to try for a movie, Robotech was such a hopeless nonentity compared to heavy hitters like Transformers that they couldn't even afford ad space on TV at a time that the movie's audience would be awake. The movie was basically their last gasp, being in theaters for test screenings at the same time as Transformers: the Movie would've been enough to kill it stone dead even if Carl Macek and Cannon Films hadn't made a complete pig's ear of it by completely failing to understand their audience.

That Lensman dub was just terrible. It and Techno Police 21C were the only two anime movies I watched not because of entertainment or quality, but for their relative notoriety amongst early American fandom.

I've heard it was so criminally bad that, combined with the issues in the original production, the Smith estate was convinced to refuse any further offers to adapt the Lensman books.

And speaking of dub, didn't someone on this thread mentioned that there is a Macross series dubbed in English by Hong Kong/Taiwan actors? Was it true that these same two countries also dubbed a majority of kung-fu movies showed in America back in the 1960s and 1970s?

The movie Macross: Do You Remember Love? got a Hong Kong dub and HEAVY edit before being released in select markets as Clash of the Bionoids. The film is almost gag dub levels of bad, with over 30 minutes of footage removed from the movie in editing.

I have always been wondering how big the original Diaclone toys back in Japan compared to Transformers after it had been re-imported?

The first generation Transformers stuff was just repackaged Diaclone toys IINM?

And, if Shoji Kawamori were to have a chance creating his own Transformer today, what kind of machine would it be?

His two favorite subjects for transforming whatevers are cars and planes... so one of those. Probably a fighter of some description... he REALLY likes those.

[Dark Duel]

(On a side note, do you live in Austin? I noticed your "Location" tagline.)

Guilty as charged

His two favorite subjects for transforming whatevers are cars and planes

Well, that sure explains the Nirvash spec2. A giant robot that turns into a car AND a plane.

[Seto Kaiba]

His two favorite subjects for transforming whatevers are cars and planes

Well, that sure explains the Nirvash spec2. A giant robot that turns into a car AND a plane.

In particular, he really seems to like Formula One-style rear engine racecars with the big front and rear wings for ground pressure... which is probably why almost every LFO in that series was one.

[False Prophet]

His two favorite subjects for transforming whatevers are cars and planes

Well, that sure explains the Nirvash spec2. A giant robot that turns into a car AND a plane.

In particular, he really seems to like Formula One-style rear engine racecars with the big front and rear wings for ground pressure... which is probably why almost every LFO in that series was one.

The most racecar-like part of Kawamori designs to me are always the heads, especially the VF-25 and its descendants.

And talking of real-life inspiration, the VF-1 was inspirated by the F-14, the F-117 for the VF-14, the A-6 for the VA-3, the X-29 for the YF-19, the Draken for the Draken III. Was there any other real-life analogues among Valkyries?

[Seto Kaiba]

And talking of real-life inspiration, the VF-1 was inspirated by the F-14, the F-117 for the VF-14, the A-6 for the VA-3, the X-29 for the YF-19, the Draken for the Draken III. Was there any other real-life analogues among Valkyries?

You've got a few incorrect ones in there... but most of the main designs have real world inspirations:

• SV-51: Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker
• VF-0 Phoenix: Grumman F-14 Tomcat
• VF-1 Valkyrie: Grumman F-14 Tomcat (design), North American XB-70 Valkyrie (name)
• VF-4 Lightning III: North American XB-70 Valkyrie (design), YF-22 Lightning II (name)
• VF-5: Convair F2Y Sea Dart
• VF-5000 Star Mirage: Dassault Mirage 2000
• VF-X-7 Ghost Valkyrie: Martin Marietta X-24A
• VF-9 Cutlass: Grumman X-29
• VF-11 Thunderbolt III: Sukhoi Su-27K/Su-33 Flanker-D (design), Republic P-47 Thunderbolt/Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II (name)
• VF-14 Vampire: Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird
• VF-17 Nightmare: Lockheed F-117A Nighthawk
• VF-19 Excalibur: Grumman X-29, Sukhoi S-37
• VF-22 Sturmvogel II: Northrop YF-23-2 Gray Ghost (design), Messerschmitt Me 262 A-2a Sturmvogel (name), Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Schwalbe (name, for VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei)
• VF-171 Nightmare Plus: Lockheed F-117A Nighthawk
• YF-24 Evolution: Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor
• VF-25 Messiah: Grumman F-14 Tomcat, Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker
• VF-27 Lucifer: Grumman F-14 Tomcat, Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker, Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird
• YF-29 Durandal: None acknowledged, probably Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut
• YF-30 Chronos: Sukhoi Su-57/T-50 PAKFA
• VF-31 Kairos: Sukhoi Su-57/T-50 PAKFA
• Sv-262 Draken III: Saab J 35 Draken (Saab 210 Lilldraken for the Lilldraken drones)
• VA-3 Invader: Grumman A-6 Intruder
• VAB-2/FBz-99G Zaubergern: None acknowledged, almost certainly the Horten Ho 229
• VA-X-3: None acknowledged, but it's obviously the Northrop YB-49 considering its designation in the non-Macross developmental material it's from was AF-49
• V-BR-2: None acknowledged, but pretty obviously the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird
• Feios Valkyrie: None acknowledged, my money's on the Vought V-173

Of course, there are a number of designs that are technically inspired by existing in-universe designs like the VF-0 being based on the VF-1 (retroactively), the VF-31 being based on the YF-30, the M3 version of the VF-14 being based on the Fz-109, or the VAB-2 being based on the FBz-99G.

[False Prophet]

You've got a few incorrect ones in there... but most of the main designs have real world inspirations:

• SV-51: Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker
• VF-0 Phoenix: Grumman F-14 Tomcat
• VF-1 Valkyrie: Grumman F-14 Tomcat (design), North American XB-70 Valkyrie (name)
• VF-4 Lightning III: North American XB-70 Valkyrie (design), YF-22 Lightning II (name)
• VF-5: Convair F2Y Sea Dart
• VF-5000 Star Mirage: Dassault Mirage 2000
• VF-X-7 Ghost Valkyrie: Martin Marietta X-24A
• VF-9 Cutlass: Grumman X-29
• VF-11 Thunderbolt III: Sukhoi Su-27K/Su-33 Flanker-D (design), Republic P-47 Thunderbolt/Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II (name)
• VF-14 Vampire: Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird
• VF-17 Nightmare: Lockheed F-117A Nighthawk
• VF-19 Excalibur: Grumman X-29, Sukhoi S-37
• VF-22 Sturmvogel II: Northrop YF-23-2 Gray Ghost (design), Messerschmitt Me 262 A-2a Sturmvogel (name), Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Schwalbe (name, for VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei)
• VF-171 Nightmare Plus: Lockheed F-117A Nighthawk
• YF-24 Evolution: Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor
• VF-25 Messiah: Grumman F-14 Tomcat, Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker
• VF-27 Lucifer: Grumman F-14 Tomcat, Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker, Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird
• YF-29 Durandal: None acknowledged, probably Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut
• YF-30 Chronos: Sukhoi Su-57/T-50 PAKFA
• VF-31 Kairos: Sukhoi Su-57/T-50 PAKFA
• Sv-262 Draken III: Saab J 35 Draken (Saab 210 Lilldraken for the Lilldraken drones)
• VA-3 Invader: Grumman A-6 Intruder
• VAB-2/FBz-99G Zaubergern: None acknowledged, almost certainly the Horten Ho 229
• VA-X-3: None acknowledged, but it's obviously the Northrop YB-49 considering its designation in the non-Macross developmental material it's from was AF-49
• V-BR-2: None acknowledged, but pretty obviously the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird
• Feios Valkyrie: None acknowledged, my money's on the Vought V-173

Of course, there are a number of designs that are technically inspired by existing in-universe designs like the VF-0 being based on the VF-1 (retroactively), the VF-31 being based on the YF-30, the M3 version of the VF-14 being based on the Fz-109, or the VAB-2 being based on the FBz-99G.

The VF-5 actually has linearts? That I don't know. And considering the Sea Dart's small size and delta configuration, do you think it has any connection to the VF-5000?

Say, why did Kawamori refused to stop working on Macross after Flashback? And why did he came back after Macross II?

[Seto Kaiba]

The VF-5 actually has linearts? That I don't know. And considering the Sea Dart's small size and delta configuration, do you think it has any connection to the VF-5000?

None that we've seen, but curiously its real-world design basis is one of the few things we know about it.

Say, why did Kawamori refused to stop working on Macross after Flashback?

According to the man himself, it was because he didn't want to do sequels.

In his view, both Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Macross: Do You Remember Love? had resolved the love story and war story completely so there was no more story left to tell after Macross: Flash Back 2012 did the epilogue that'd originally been planned for the TV series. Doing a sequel would've meant undoing what he saw as the story's natural conclusion.

And why did he came back after Macross II?

Money talks.

Kawamori had a couple non-Macross projects that'd stalled because he'd been unable to get (or keep) a sponsor including Advanced Valkyrie. He was invited to submit pitches for a new Macross series and took a chance to get funding to make Advanced Valkyrie conditional to it becoming a Macross story... Macross Plus.

[Henyo]

so, i recently joined an SRW group in FB. i mentioned what has been said about a Macross being in an SEA localized SRW.

one replied this

"not exactly: harmony gold continues to hold the trademark on macross outside of japan until 2021 since they lost against tatsunoko in court. until then, macross won't get back into another SRW if the intent is for bamco to localize that installment for SEA"

me wants more clarification/details on this.

[pirx]

I wonder, will Macross Delta will go down in MAHQ history as the only Macross series Chris hasn't reviewed completely?

[Seto Kaiba]

"not exactly: harmony gold continues to hold the trademark on macross outside of japan until 2021 since they lost against tatsunoko in court. until then, macross won't get back into another SRW if the intent is for bamco to localize that installment for SEA"

Would it be OK if I gave the short version of the explanation? The long version usually takes forever to tell and puts people into a shallow coma with the legalese.

A LONG TIME AGO, IN A GALAXY FAR, FAR AWAY...

Well, OK... not so much. It was 19 years ago (1999) right here in this galaxy where we are now.

After over a decade spent tossing cards into a hat and farming the Robotech license out to whichever small-time licensee was willing to pay for it, the malingering maladroit mental midgets at Harmony Gold USA had got it into their heads that what the world really needed was a new Robotech TV series. Carl Macek, armed as he was with barely enough brains to fill a thimble and utterly convinced of his own genius even though anyone could have told him what little success Robotech achieved was in spite of his contribution rather than because of it, came forward with a concept for a new far-future Robotech series set in the year 3000 with zero ties to the previous TV series and animated in the all-CG style of ReBoot. Harmony Gold started gearing up for a grand return to the prominence it'd deluded itself into believing Robotech enjoyed in the 1980s, including attempting to strongarm its licensee Palladium Books into buying a license to the series sight-unseen for a huge sum and starting a proposal for an official website, DVD re-release of the original series, and various toy lines in partnership with Toynami.

It was the worst disaster in the history of Harmony Gold's Robotech franchise until the 2014 crash-and-burn failure of the Robotech Academy Kickstarter and the 2018 admission that Palladium had misappropriated a huge sum from the Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter budget and caused the project to fail.

So while Carl Macek was politely shown the door after incurring half a million dollars in development losses alone, Harmony Gold plowed ahead with the rest of its plans for a revival. During this, they noticed that various import toy dealers were doing a brisk trade in Japanese Macross toys that were at least as good (and generally a lot better) than the Toynami toys they were planning to sell and comparably priced to boot. So Harmony Gold went nuclear and started sending cease and desist letters to those toy importers, threatening them with lawsuits and demanding they surrender all unsold inventory of Macross goods while (falsely) claiming that their license gave them exclusive rights to ALL things Macross outside of Japan.

It didn't take long for word of this to get back to Macross's co-owners in Japan: Big West Advertising Co. Ltd. and Tatsunoko Production Co. Ltd., whose reaction was essentially "WTF?".

So, because of Harmony Gold's false claim, Big West and Tatsunoko were obliged to petition the Japanese courts for a contract review to ensure that everyone owned precisely what they thought they owned from their original contract back in 1982. It took over a year for the petition to wind its way through the system, finally resulting in the courts confirming that everyone in Japan owned precisely what the original contract said they did. Harmony Gold's claims were baseless, and Harmony Gold promptly shat a brick.

Desperate to keep the higher-quality Macross goods and shows from Japan from demolishing Robotech's modest remaining fanbase and the market for its third-rate collectables from Toynami, Harmony Gold went to the US Patent and Trademark Office and filed for trademark protection on the Macross title card, the Japanese and English titles of Super Dimension Fortress Macross, the word "Macross", and a number of other pieces of key art and terms like "UN Spacy". Harmony Gold intended to use those trademarks to keep Macross out of the west by threatening any Macross licensee or importer of Macross goods with a lawsuit for violating their exclusive trademark rights to the various art, logos, and terms they'd trademarked. Because US trademark law is based on first use rather than ownership of a particular term or property, this strategy actually worked... Harmony Gold was able to stop import toy dealers in the US from carrying Macross goods and prevent more Macross titles from being licensed outside of Japan except in select markets. Harmony Gold also sought and obtained similar trademarks in various other key markets for anime distribution like the European Union, the UK, and several nations in Asia.

Tatsunoko Production wasn't inclined to put a stop to it, since the Japanese courts had shot down their claim that they should be entitled to a share of the profits from subsequent Macross works because of their role in the production of the original. They were receiving a small but steady trickle of licensing revenue from the Harmony Gold license. This status quo would stick until January 29, 2014.

On 29 January 2014, Nippon Television Network Corporation formally announced that it had purchased a 54.3% stake in Tatsunoko Production and adopted the company as a subsidiary. This brought about changes in senior management at Tatsunoko, and the new managerial direction was for Tatsunoko to exercise tighter control of properties in its catalog of works. The license agreement with Harmony Gold was reexamined, and Tatsunoko audited their royalties payments and reported sales and came to the rather surprising conclusion that Harmony Gold had shorted them on royalty payments for home video and streaming use of their properties. Tatsunoko's lawyers and Harmony Gold's lawyers exchanged arguments for a while and the situation blew up in arbitration overseen by the California Central District Court. Arguments got rather heated at several points, with Harmony Gold at one point claiming (in apparent ignorance of how copyright law works) that having used Tatsunoko's IP in its own "original" works gave it partial ownership of that IP and that they could continue using it even after their license expired. Tatsunoko's counsel and the arbitrator explained that that was not the case, and then steered matters back to the subject of royalties. The arbitration ended with a judgment in Harmony Gold's favor on a point of their license agreement that provided Harmony Gold permission to deduct legal fees from its royalties owed provided those legal fees were incurred in legal actions in defense of the IP. Tatsunoko was ordered to pay Harmony Gold's court costs and attorney fees as well, which they resolutely refused to do... forcing Harmony Gold to, in turn, sue Tatsunoko for refusal to abide by the binding arbitration.


So... where we stand today is that Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko's relationship is on the rocks, and with Nippon TV pushing Tatsunoko to exercise tighter control over their properties it's looking increasingly unlikely that HG will be able to renew their license and continue using Macross, Southern Cross, or MOSPEADA after their current license term ends on 14 March 2021. Once their license expires, their trademarks become unenforceable because they no longer have a right to use those materials themselves. Tatsunoko has also been visibly cosying up to Big West at Macross events, suggesting they're hoping to get involved with Macross again or at least strike a deal with Big West to handle international distribution in exchange for a share of the profits.

The catch is that, for now, Harmony Gold's trademarks are still in force so they can threaten legal action to stop distributors from releasing Macross goods in areas where they hold trademarks on the various art, terms, and so on. Some of their trademarks have been successfully challenged, but others remain in force, so depending on where a new SRW game with Macross was going to be released they could conceivably threaten legal action to prevent it from being released there... until their rights expire in 2021.

I wonder, will Macross Delta will go down in MAHQ history as the only Macross series Chris hasn't reviewed completely?

I'd have a hard time complaining about it if it did... barring one or two stumbles like Messer's death being a complete anticlimax and the episode attempting to eulogize him as a great guy coming off as hilariously forced and stupid, the first half of Macross Delta was pretty good. The second half was such a complete and utter train wreck that it felt like a chore to even watch it, and Macross is pretty much my #1 favorite anime series.

[pirx]

Which makes it even more painful is that we get new Macross series approx once per 10 years, so every new Macross is eagerly avaited and then we get this...
New Gundam shows come out almost every year for comparison.

[Seto Kaiba]

Which makes it even more painful is that we get new Macross series approx once per 10 years, so every new Macross is eagerly avaited and then we get this...
New Gundam shows come out almost every year for comparison.

We get new Macross titles rather more often than once a decade... but it's mostly OVAs and movies.

Of late, Big West and Bandai have begun doing an end run around Harmony Gold's obstructionist behavior using the scope of HG's own license. As with practically all anime and manga distribution licenses, Harmony Gold's license to Macross, Southern Cross, and MOSPEADA is geographically limited in scope and doesn't grant them any rights to the material in Japan. By putting English subtitles on Japanese domestic market Blu-rays and simply making them available to Japan-based online stores that cater to international customers like CDJapan, HMV, and AmiAmi, they can sell to fans outside Japan without any interference from Harmony Gold because the transaction takes place in Japan where they have no say in the matter whatsoever.

International sales of the Macross Delta Blu-rays seem to have been good enough for them to also subtitle the Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure movie in English, and hopefully any forthcoming Blu-rays will have similar treatment.

[Henyo]

@seto kaiba. Informative. very informative. i do like reading up on the licensing issues of Macross. even if a quarter of the time it flies over moi head. thank veggies Ultraman had it's own licensing problems finally sorted.

so if i were to put it in fewer words: as long as the BAMCO releases an English SRW with a Macross(or even the other 2 series used for robotech) themselves HG has no power whatsover to roadblock it?

on a related note: Mospeada and Southern Cross has never been in any SRW right?

[yazi88]

Mospeada and Southern Cross have not been in any SRW yet.

There are quite a number of 80s mecha anime that have yet to debut in SRW. Votoms got in SRW for the 1st time in 2009's SRW Z2.