Rewrite Gundam ZZ

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DarthYAM
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Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by DarthYAM » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:50 am

ZZ is generally considered one of the more controversial series in the Universal Century, due to its comedic tone early on, the moon moon people, and the radical tone shift in the second half.

Imagine that in the aftermath of Zeta, you were the one assigned to create the story and had to decide the overall tone?

Personally, I didn't mind the Haman Judau relationship (well aside from that she was 21 and he was 14. Ew!) I understand why she had feelings for him (he reminded her of when she was young and idealistic, and his power and drive reminds her of Char), so I think they had a pretty nice dynamic. She finds his idealism curious and appealing, he feels some degree of sympathy for her even though she's a horrible person. Judau also is pretty well adjusted and fairly likable (granted I only really saw the second half, when he was fairly mature) but all in all the fact he was 14 is ZOINKS. I get it; Tomino likes kid heroes but 14? Really?

Chara Soon: either eliminate or tone her down. She was annoying in the second half, and if the first half was even worse I can only shudder.

Finale: This was rushed. Glemmy's revolt should have had more development (i.e. we see the battle last longer, we see him start to recruit allies while acting like a politician). Judau's duel with Haman was kind of a let down. I liked that Haman was still winning up until Judau did the whole spirits channeling, and that even then the battle was a draw, but I think the attack drones was done before. Maybe Haman is in an even more advanced quebeley with attack funnels and another gimmick. The idea of a small force caught between two titanic forces was a solid idea, where the heroes need to use stealth and guile to win, where they and a smaller AEUG force, not to mention some earth forces that defy orders and help out, have to outmaneuver and play both sides against the others (or use surgical strikes on both sides to make them weaken each other even more before moving in for the kill by assassinating Glemmy and Haman respectively, could work

A Darker Tone: I can understand why the approach was originally lighter, but it kind of jarred. Even though the second darker half was awesome it still wa jarring. Maybe have it be somewhat serious but still lighter, and have an extendered period where Judau and the others go through intense training. They don't take it seriously, but after they almost get killed they suck it up and actually become stronger (another thing, they an be weak kids recruited out of necessity who mature into real soldiers over the course of the show)

mechachap
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by mechachap » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:09 am

And how would you introduce Elpeo Ple in this darker rewrite?

DarthYAM
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by DarthYAM » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:27 am

I was throwing stuff out there, what I thought worked and what the problems were. This is a suggestion thread (how would you rewrite it?)

Kratos
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by Kratos » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:30 am

mechachap wrote:And how would you introduce Elpeo Ple in this darker rewrite?
About the only thing that's stopping me from saying the character should just be axed is Marida. Ple is very much "early ZZ" in tone - FFS, she's named after a Lolicon magazine! - and she's basically just a fetish character, like how some shows have characters designed exclusively to draw in the moe crowd.

Now that I think about it, Ple herself doesn't factor into Marida at all, who's just a cyber Newtype clone. Ple 2 could still exist in the show in some form without Ple. So, yeah, axe her.
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Zeonista
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by Zeonista » Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:04 pm

Now if you had asked me about 15 years ago, I would have earnestly stood up and said "Scrap everything and start over again!" in forthright earnest fan outrage. However, with years and perspective (and watching some truly torturous AU story developments) I have warmed up some to the ZZ story. And the Zeta movies helped my mood, they really did. :D But I do admit to having some "if I were in charge" moments as well.

Here is my humble list of editorial changes for Tomino-sama if he feels like green-lighting a redo.

1. Judau blows away Yazan Gable.

He doesn't have to do it in episode #5, or even episode #25. But do it, so we can lay some flowers on Emma nee-sn's grave and get closure.

2. Beecha & Mondo die a horrible death if they betray the Argama and stick around.
The #1 complaint from all my friends who have watched the series is why those two are still alive after betraying their so-called friends three times! Honestly, after the first blatant betrayal they ought to have been sucking vacuum for their actions. If Beecha wants to screw his friends over & join Neo Zeon, he should stay Neo Zeon, and get a post worthy of his talents. ;) If he wants to hang around Argama as Judau's self-declared rival, that's OK, but keep him there. 9I don't care about Mondo, since he has no individual will of his own.)

3. Judau gets/keeps Elle as a girlfriend at the end of the series.

My friend (whom you all previously knew as Dominion at GOUF forum) would want that. They had some nice chemistry building, then they are abruptly splitsville, and she winds up with Beecha of all people while he runs off to Jupiter with Roux. :?: It's not a big worry of mine, but I don't mind helping a friend.

4. No Moon Moon arc.
This was one of the elements that back in the day I thought was Too Silly, even for Tomino's heavy-handed brand of comic relief. It also did nothing to advance the story & was jarringly at odds with the Universal Century's hard-nosed SF tone. Lose it and spend that share of the series budget on making awesome MS fights. :)

5. Develop Glemy Toto's path to rebellion.
I have no objection to Glemy as a villain, but if he's going to be Haman-sama's rival, build it up more so when he does go for broke it doesn't seem impulsive or rushed, but as a true dramatic climax. If Haman-sama hasn't seen it coming by then, or hasn't seriously tried to stop him, she deserves everything that happens.

6. Judau is no substitute for Char Aznable.
This is my most recent gripe. After all the hype about Haman-sama chasing after her Red Comet and making him chose Zeon, she loses him at the Big Fight at the end of Zeta Gundam and he disappears. And then she does nothing to find him, and spends her time obsessing about some scavenger punk turned AEUG ace instead. Really? :o Sure, Haman-sama should try to recruit Judau, until the fight at Dakar he has no real quarrel with Neo Zeon. But, he's not Char, and that's a fact. I would like to see Haman-sama wanting to mend fences with Char (on her terms of course :wink: ) and posting rewards & reminding her lieutenants that she wants him alive...and unspoiled. And what do you know, one of the UC's chief characters is back in the story.
"I am fire. I am death. I am Hashmal."

"Discontent is the first step in the progress for a man or a nation." - Oscar Wilde

DarthYAM
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by DarthYAM » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:06 pm

This might sound silly but in the game sly cooper sly and his friends have to pull off a heist against a powerful criminal while said criminal is under siege from mercs. In order to avoid getting crushed between the two sides they must play both against the other (escalating the conflict by say attacking one hq and pinning it on the others); as silly and cartoonish as the game was I liked that angle because it showed stealth and guile, and I think a similar situation could work in gundam. The civil war's the one thing keeping the Earth Federation alive, so they try to exacerbate the civil war so as to bleed both sides dry than move in for the kill by decapitating the head of the beast. It would also be a far more fitting way of beginning another war; say "we were winning before traitors undermined our glorious cause" and have Char exploit that.

Haman's interest in Judau was there because it reminded her of when she was herself idealistic. She's surprised when Judau's genuinely trying to find Leina, and Char's deleted affair shows that she was one of those kids who thought that if you just understand each other then people can get along. Judau's idealism reminds her of that period in her life, so she's definitely going to be curious about him.

Judau and the others being immature worked because at the end they are mature soldiers (even Beecher realizes that being captain is about making painful decisions.). Having them evolve into actual soldiers who accept that war isn't a game is a pretty fine arc

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Brave Fencer Kirby
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:31 pm

DarthYAM wrote:all in all the fact he was 14 is ZOINKS. I get it; Tomino likes kid heroes but 14? Really?
That's hardly something unique to Tomino. When I first watched ZZ, I honestly thought Judau was somewhere in the 17-19 range. It's been my experience that 90% of ages in Japanese fiction, from Gundam to Final Fantasy to Pokemon to nearly anything else you care to name, work a lot better if you add about 5 years to the "official" age.
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DarthYAM
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by DarthYAM » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:40 pm

the fact that haman is hitting on him makes it creepy though.

Kratos
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by Kratos » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:15 pm

I know lots of people like him because he's so different from the awkward teenage shenanigans of Amuro and the angry outbursts of Kamille, but I think Judau might one of my least-favourite Gundam protagonists. I have difficult articulating EXACTLY why, but something about him really rubs me the wrong way, and the whole Haman thing is just another part of that. Judau is the Best Newtype! Pfft, military? What military! He'll make a mockery of your military with a grin and a wink and still save the day anyways! ALL the ladies love him, and he can thaw the frozen heart of any ambitious dictator because he is just THAT good.

Him, and a lot of ZZ as a whole, really feel like a troll character/series at times, and dammit, I mad.
"The beast of opportunity finds its master and soars through a shaken cosmos"

DarthYAM
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by DarthYAM » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:32 pm

Judau actually does become more disciplined as time passes. He's powerful, and yeah thats annoying but he's not as good as amuro and haman was still able to fight to a draw. I bought his thing with Haman because he hit the right spots (reminder of her own past, the fact that he's the first genuine idealist she's encountered in years, power, and drive). EVen then he doesn't unfreeze it. She's still pretty damn ruthless (Judau returns mineva because he realizes that haman's not bluffing when she threatens to kill him and mineva if it will keep mineva from escaping.) Even though both understand the other point of view (Judau does understand Haman's past and how it shaped her into who she is)…..it still ends in a battle to the death with haman ending her own life. Judau actually offers to let her come with him, and she says no.

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The Green Flame
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by The Green Flame » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:41 pm

More Moon Moon! *ducks*

But seriously, a lot of what I'd like was already mentioned. Develop Glemmy's rebellion by showing it slowly gain steam and him being the charismatic fellow he is would go a long way to making the last episodes go smoother. Showing how Haman herself deals with it would be great as well since, to my knowledge, they don't show how she deals with the rebellion until it happens.

Another thing I'd like to see requires a bit of a change to Zeta itself: Jerid Messa and Emma Sheen living and making it into most of the ZZ plot. Emma I'd like to see as an extra experienced pilot to mentor the new guys. And a final showdown between her and Yazan would be pretty cool too. With Jerid, I'd like to see how he'd deal with things given that he pretty much lost everything to the Kamille (and the AEUG by extension). Plus, the possibility of Jerid meeting a post-mind fry Kamille and not knowing what to do with himself from that point on is great too. He'd have Kamille right where he wanted him but seeing Kamille all messed up would likely do wonders to his ego and give him some new direction.

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Angelo Sauper
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by Angelo Sauper » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:46 pm

I'm not a big fan of Moon Moon, but the Tigerbaum sub-arc is one of my favourites.

As much as I like it, I think that the whole series is a bit disjointed. The earth arc is reasonably solid, but the final arc should have been so much more. Needs a better build up and a better execution. That said, what we got is still fairly epic, the beginning and end was just rather abrupt.

Zeonista
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by Zeonista » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:20 pm

The Green Flame wrote:More Moon Moon! *ducks*
That would be the SyFy rewrite, "Dinocroc versus MS God in the Lost Colony". :P

Angelo Sauper: I wouldn't mind an extension of Tigerbaum that made it more than a kung fu movie with MS.
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:11 am

Uso still wins out on youngest protagonist at 13, so Judau being 14 (Amuro was only 15 in MSG himself) isn't that big a deal, lol.

The thing that really sets Judau apart from Amuro and Kamille (at the time anyway) was that, right from the get-go, he was forced to be a bit more mature due to having to raise Leina by himself and while living in a slum, barely scraping by with a job at a junkyard, so you really have to mature and take responsibility or die in his situation. His lighthearted and impulsive nature, however, shows that despite his situation, he's still just a 14 year old kid too and, obviously, trying to be positive about things.

I also partially blame the Haman/Judau thing on Newtype magic, sort of like Amuro and Lalah, or Kamille and Four or something ("understanding" eachother and such). The difference between them and the latter two is, at least that relationship develops throughout the series and isn't simply "concluded" after just knowing eachother for a day (as in "knowing" or something). In ways, Haman and Judau could be looked at as somewhat like Amuro/Lalah/Char with the idea that Haman simply met Char first. Perhaps if Haman had never met/got involved with Char and met Judau first, things could've turned out differently.
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mechachap
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by mechachap » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:45 am

After having experienced ZZ last year, I didn't dislike it as much as most fan most likely did when it first aired. (I grew to like it a lot more over time as well) Though after hearing the folks at Gundamn reference an earlier draft which had Char going up against Haman, I did feel a little sad that that little plotline didn't happen. I would've written in Kamille's involvement a lot sooner as a capable pilot / older brother figure.

I would've liked stronger female characters, including rewriting Roux Louka's character, have her develop a real relationship with Judau over the course of the series.

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DoubleZero
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by DoubleZero » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:28 am

"Rush hour, during the Dark hour..."

DarthYAM
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by DarthYAM » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:11 am

Can't read it.

mechachap
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by mechachap » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:51 am

The last paragraph seems very interesting, but the translated version on Google is virtually unreadable.

Heaven Piercing Man
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by Heaven Piercing Man » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:57 pm

Personally I liked the silly first half, I felt it was a necessary breath of fresh air after the deathfest of late Zeta.

But the second half would need a rewrite regarding the battles. It was rushed and feels incomplete, some mobile suits barely appear and show off their abilities, the Doven Wolves didn't even use their incoms, the Bawoos' transformation was forgotten outside of the Glemy Custom, the final battle was so rushed the MP Qubeleys are just a footnote that somehow changes color.

And the biggest disappointment: Hayato going out like a chump. Seems like he had a death wish after learning of Katz's death. Hello? You have a family! At least make him fight Rakan in a GM III instead of a puny Dodai that got swatted like a fly.

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HellCat
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Re: Rewrite Gundam ZZ

Post by HellCat » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:29 am

Make it so the colony that lands doesn't have a massive end of days build up and then just kind of comes to a gentle stop. Reminds me of a joke in an episode of Stunt Dawgs where the bad guys plane was about to crash and came to a gentle stop because it ran out of fuel moments from crashing.
The issue of the colony fall for me goes on the list arguing against people who take Gundam too seriously.

I don't mind Judau that much. It was actually nice after Kamille was just a more depressing Amuro. When it's done well I think using younger protagonists actually makes some valid points about how bad the war has become, that innocent children are now having to fight and try to comprehend a screwed up war started by their elders.
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