My Journey Through Mobile Suit Gundam

[Nikkolas]

So I realize I've now made three topics but I hope you guys can forgive me. I wanted to use this topic as both a repository for my thoughts on previous Gundams I watched through the month of February and also for future thoughts on 00 and Wing.

\For MSG, 08th MS Team and Stardust Memory, I'll just summarize what I wrote since for all of these I was actually making a post every five episodes or so elsewhere before giving an overall review. But since I can't do that now, I think just a mini-review will do.

Mobile Suit Gundam

really didn't like it. I'm told that what it suffered from most - pointless, repetitive fights every damned episodes - was "the norm" for mecha of that time and one way in which super robots effected it. But that doesn't change the fact there was so much action and a vast majority ofit was meaningless. Meanwhile I found none of the crew of the White Base interesting except Kai when he met Miharu. Bright also had his moments. But Amuro was unbearably whiny to me. He literally steals the Gundam because he overheard them talking mean about him. OOOOH! I think the real stars of the show were the Zeon characters - be they the Zabi family, Char or Ramba Ral. Dozle Zabi has to have my favorite death in any Gundam I've seen so far and Garma's was also great in how much it made me detest Char. The problem with all of these great characters is they aren't on-screen enough. The Zabi's are the real villains but they are in, what, ten episodes collectively? Maybe eleven or twelve Whenever they were around they stole the show but they just weren't around enough for my liking.

Verdict: The high points are really good. But they are so few and far between that I see little reason to ever watch it again.

The 08th MS Team

Fresh off the bland and unlikable White Base contingent, I was blown away by how much I loved almost everyone here. Shiro, Sanders, Karen, the little kid who kept writing his girlfrind - they were all so fun. I'm not the biggest fan of Shiro's and Aian's love story but it didn't detract from me enjoying the show. My favorite aspect of course was Kiki and her resistance friends. Episode 8, where everyone wants to avoid a battle but it just goes to hell because of an unlucky stream of events, shows the reality of war in a way MSG never managed. My only complaint about this is the final episode and I hear that is because the director died. That is a bummer.

Verdict: Very enjoyable, will watch again.

0083: Stardust Memory

Ooh boy... I did not like Kou, I kinda liked Gato, and I hated Nina. No one else stood out to me at all. I know a lot of people liked Cinna but I'm afraid reading her backstory on Gundam Wiki just didn't evoke much of an emotional response for me. She just came off as an evil woman to me while at least Gato had ideals. I will say this - "The Winner" is by far my favorite Gundam OP so far.

Verdict: Nina betraying everyone because she wants another taste of Gato's mobile suit/10.

And with those brief thoughts out of the way, I would like to repost my final thoughts on Zeta and SEED:

Zeta

Now I've finished Zeta and had some time to think, I'd like to just address my impressions of it. To start though, I hope you'll forgive me a moment of self-indulgence.

I've been looking for an enduring anime franchise I could get into for a while now. I wanted to find a series with a large fanbase and a lot of installments across TV and comics and video games. I love fiction because it's a way for me to connect with other people. I love posting on boards and discussing our various opinions and perhaps even arguing about them too. To this end and in search of a franchise I could fall in love with, I bought Neon Genesis Evangelion a few months back. I jumped right into the deep end of the pool too, buying the special volume sets with the insert booklets off ebay for $140. I was all ready to love the shit out of it and start buying the Rebuild movies and the various manga and the soundtracks. Then I actually watched NGE and it....was not very good. I don't know if I'd say I hated it but I was most definitely not blown away. I have no desire to ever watch it again save for one or two episodes.

So after that flop I kinda drifted until at last I remembered my saying I was starting Gundam. I've been saying this for years by this point so I figured it was high-time I actually did it. "Gundam could be that epic franchise I was searching for" were my thoughts. And so I watched tge MSG anime, 08th MS Team and Stardust Memory. I would say I enjoyed them for the most part (except 0083) but I was again disappointed. I'd say they were okay-to-good but most definitely not great. It looked like I had put my faith in the wrong franchise again.

And theN i watched Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam. Hallelujah! My faith was rewarded!

I was warned it wasn't as great as a lot of people say. Would I say it was the best anime I've ever seen and it changed my life? Probably no to both but if it wasn't the best anime I've ever seen, it's still in the Top 10, maybe even Top 5. Whereas I was almost passed the point of caring by the end of every other Gundam series, and I just wanted them to finally be over with, I was sad to see Zeta finish. And not just because it's finish is sad.

Kamille had a rough start as a protagonist with his fits of anger and bitchiness but those really do subside fairly quickly. What's more, any bout of depression or angst he goes through doesn't out-stay its welcome. I think what I'd say about Kamille is that everything is in the right proportion; he isn't a jackass too much, he isn't moping too much, and often times when he is in one of his moods, he has every friggin' right to be. See: Emma slapping him and calling him over-emotional, to which he snarkily replies "this from someone who keeps slapping me."

The supporting cast of Zeta is so much better than any other Gundm series I have yet to see that it's kinda sad. Backing up Kamille are fantastic characters like Emma. She's probably the best female I've seen in a Gundam series. Like Kamille, everything is in the proper portion with her attitudes and moods. She has to be one of the most reasonable and level-headed and believable characters in the show. And while on the topic of Emma, Zeta had a lot of more minor supporting characters like Captain Henken who were really likable. His death was probably the most painful for me in the finale.

And of course I can't forget Char and Amuro. I've never seen characters rebound so fast. I disliked their MSG characterization quite a bit and yet they were both so much stronger in Zeta. I loved having both of them as mentors to Kamille but they were very good on their own as well. Amuro's PTSD was very believable and when he finally does get "back into the saddle" it's a raal hell yeah moment. Char meanwhile is so far removed from his evil shithead MSG personality that I can barely tell they are the same character. I'll get to that later on though.

And on the opposite side of things, someone mentioned that one of Zeta's strengths was its large cast of villains. This is absolute truth. They run the gambit from evil masterminds to just plain psychos to traumatized victims. I think every show like this should have a broad selection of antagonists to choose from. That way you can have the villain you love to hate, the villain you can feel sorry for, etc.. The villain I loved to hate was Paptimus Scirocco. Yazan was great for how batshit nuts he was but I loved the fact Scirocco oozed evil even when he did nothing for most of the show. I also liked the only time we see him break his perpetually cool demeanor was when Sarah died. Adds a nice bit of "maybe there's more to him" but I'll get to that later as well. On the sympathetic villain side of things, I loved Four. She and the other Cyber Newtypes took what they were trying to do with Lalah (from a storytelling perspective I mean) and actually executed it well this time around. Giving them a backstory of a sorts was probably the key to this, as well as letting them interact with the heroes more.

The English dub was...hm, I'd say good but maybe just stopping short of great. Kamille's VA's performance seems to be a very subjective thing and it kinda reminds me of Spike Spencer as Shinji Ikari. A lot of people really hated him and attribute the Western audiences general dislike for Shinji to his acting making Shinji sound too whiny. Personally I think Jonathan Lachlan-Stewart as Kamille was the star of the dub and a big reason I likd the character. Kamille had a large range of emotions and moods so he had to be on the ball and I think he was. The recast for Amuro was a helluva lot better than the original but I'm not sure if that's Brad Swaile's fault. I know a lot of the voice-cast of the MSG anime and they are good but almost no one seemed capable of turning in a good performance there. Other standouts include Jonathan Love as Scirocco and Lisa Christie as Emma. And while I don't consider it an amazing dub, it's still the best Gundam one I've heard. I thought maybe MS Team was better but you can't compare the two. This is one reason why I don't agree when people say Cowboy Bebop was the greatest dub EVAH. It was relatively short and had so few characters that you can't compare its dub to a long-running series with much larger casts. Same is true for Zeta to MS Team.

My thoughts on the final episode itself... Well Newtype stuff had becoming increasingly more blatant comic book superpowers instead of the little precog or increased empathy of before. Do I have a problem with Kamille gathering the consciousnesses of those who have died around him as a source of power to defeat Scirocco? Uh...not really, even though it took the power creep to a whole new level. Emma dying like that did irk me however. I do not think it was necessary. The abrupt ending with Kamille having his mind destroyed by Scirocco was very disconcerting too. I knew it was coming but leaving everything so open? Annoying.

Now...to criticism. Being a true fan of something means you acknowledge its weaknesses as well as its strengths.

I mentioned addressing Char and Scirocco later and now is the time. I've seen many people complain that his character - and more importantly how everyone else reacts to his character - is very bad writing. Now...I'm not sure how I feel about this. Does everyone on the AEUG looking at him as some sort of idol, especially those who fought against him back in the One Year War, make sense? I'm really not sure. I'm gonna guess the extent of his douchebaggery isn't well-known. As the viewers we know it all too well but my impression was that the characters only knew the romanticized account of a poor kid who had his father murdered and then spent his life trying to fight against the evil monsters who had done it. Together with this semi-fantastical account of his life, his very real charisma and intellect make him someone I can believe people would gather behind.

Now. Scirocco. He stayed in the background TOO long for my taste. Even if he didn't make his move for power any earlier, he should have been featured more prominently. And speaking of making his move...it's really not clear what he was after. He mentions in one of his first appearances that he believes a woman will rule the inevitable empire they create. He also later extols the greatness of having a female leader. All this while he draws in feeble, broken women to serve as his puppets. I'm really not sure what he was after.

Also you might have noticed I left off Jerid when assessing the bad guys. Jerid was an asshole but I'm not sure how much we were supposed to like or dislike him. He had very likable female companions like Lila and that Newtype girl and when they die he is shown to be distraught. So he's human. But then he goes around gassing colonies and attacking cities full of innocent people without blinking an eye. I just don't get him.

My final criticism is actually very minor to me but I can see why it would perhaps prevent others from liking Zeta or taking it seriously. That problem is that the philosophy or themes or whatever you want to call it underlying the conflict don't mke a lot of sense. Under all the very legitimate and physical reasons for battling there is a message of how being in space and being on Earth have resulted in two irreconcilable groups of humanity. I'm reminded of one part of 0083 that stood out to me because of how absurd it was. Kou has these books to learn about picking up Nina and one of them had a title like "Learning About Spacenoid Women." My immediate thought then was "....how the hell is she any different from other women?" And so the same applies to the two warring groups in Zeta. I just don't really buy into being in space has somehow changed people that much that they feel they are a whole different group from those who live on a planet.

And so those are my thoughts as best as I can sum them up at the moment. Knowing me, a lot of other stuff will come back after I post this and I'll be like "I should have said this, this and this!" But for now, I will conclude with saying I loved Zeta Gundam and if any future Gundam series I watch even comes close to it, I will be more than satisfied.

SEED

"But the real world isn't as kind as the one in pop songs."

That....that has to be one of the best lines ever in a Gundam series.

And so my trek through Gundam SEED comes to an end. Before I talk about the anime as a whole, I wanna focus just on the last ten episodes.

Things started off pretty rough, I will admit. The first two or three episodes were filled with entirely too much Lacus. Her relentless bullshit made me think of two things:
1. The "1000 Words" Concert in Final Fantasy X-2. Only this is the entirely wrong setting for that and Lacus isn't essentially The Messiah like Yuna was. I could believe people gave Yuna's words weight because she saved them from a thousand years of misery. Lacus by contrast made me suffer through a thousand years of misery in a few days.
2. Frasier is one of my favorite sitcoms ever and there was a quote from the good doctor himself in the Honey Snow episode I believe. After being exposed to such saccharine levels of idealism he said something like "suddenly I yearned for the worldly cynicism of Barney the Dinosaur." I think that sums up my feelings on Lacus and everything she said.

But I needn't have feared. Everything got so much better after that. Rau hamming it up was perfection, even if that whole clone thing is really stupid and unnecessary. Do they continue that plotline in Destiny? i just see no purpose at all for it beyond explaining why he's unstable. It really added nothing at all to the actual plot of the show. And yet Rau's character almost makes me forget about all those little details.

I will say without fear of having mud slung at me that I think Episode 49 of SEED is one of my favorite episodes in all of Gundam so far. Hell, it reminds me a lot of Zeta's episode 49 which was also amazing. The actual climax and all of episode 50 really suffered because of how much I loved 49.

Now...to the show as a whole.

1. Kira Yamato. The UC fans/SEED haters I used to mostly talk to about Gundam dragged his name down to the lowest levels and I just don't see it. They made him sound like the second coming of Shinji Ikari in terms of angst and I think one of those crosover games even supposedly had Shinji telling Kira to man up? The dude really wasn't that bad at all in...any way as far as I'm concerned. I feel no strong love or hatred for him. he went through the "I hate killing people" stuff like Amuro and Kamille and then he got a backbone in last 15 or so episodes. (although I did notice how he kinda proved Rau right when he shouted "DIEE!!!" at him when the latter killed Fllay....)

2.Speaking of Fllay....her character certainly did not end up anywhere near my expectations. I had this final post of mine sort of planned out way back at the beginning where I'd say people are wrong for calling her "believable" because I don't think it's believable that a grief-stricken teenage girl can become some ultra-committed manipulative genius with extermination on her mind. But she became wishy-washy on that sort of fast and I think that is believable. Her subsequent time with Rau though was pretty flimsy bullshit as far as I'm concerned. She thought he was her dad? I don't think anything new had happened to her to cause this massive detachment with reality.

3. Now the best female character was Natarle. Her story arc was very easy for me to swallow and she rose to prominence that I never once expected. Her death, coming on the heels of La Flaga's, and happening simultaneously with Azrael's, was perfect. i got a little choked up just because the bastard kept shooting her so many times that when she finally said "fire!" you could tell how much agony she was in.

4. Sadly every other woman sucked or was unremarkable. Lacus all on her own nearly sinks the entire show, let alone the women roster. Our captain never did anything particularly memorable, Kira's friend's most noteworthy action was trying to kill a prisoner, and Cagalli...man, Cagalli. Why is she popular at all? How can Destiny ruin her? She didn't do anything. She tried to do stuff I guess, and she had some gumption, but in the end she was utterly unremarkable. In the end only Natarle can be compared to Emma in greatness.

5.SEED focused a lot more on heavy, personal drama than MSG did, but I'm not sure how effective it was in actually making me like any of the Archangel's crew. I mean who is gonna say their favorit epart of SEED was Kuzzey or Sai? The ones who stole the show were La Flaga and later Natarle, and Kira on occasion, and by and large they were not great because of relationship melodrama.

6.In the end I can see why people say this is more "shounen" than previous Gundams. I felt like I was watching Naruto with Kira and Rau debating Idealism vs. Cynicism. The problem is that, yes, previous Gundam series had their heroes lamenting how "we can't understand each other." But there is a time and a place for that kind of thing and having Lacus and everyone else shout about LOVE AND PEACE in the middle of a battle is just ridiculous. Even Vash the Stampede knew when it was time to clam up and get down to business.

7. But man...SEED's English dub. Best dub I've heard in a Gundam so far and it's not even close. Can't say the same for the show itself though as I still prefer Zeta by a good margin. I'll take SEED over the original anime because I kinda hated it. But do I have any desire to re-watch SEED any time soon? Not really. I am ready to move onto Destiny and hopefully it won't be as terrible as everyone says.


Now I have a question for you all - who is your favorite "Char Clone?" Rau was very good and I'm eager to see if any future CC's come close. The most popular ones seem to be Rau and Zechs.

And Destiny...I'm just gonna pretend I didn't watch that.

So over the course of February i watched about 200+ episodes of Gundam and my ranking goes:
The Best-
Zeta

The Great-
High points of MSG
SEED

The Good-
08th MS Team

The Okay-
Most of MSG

The Bad-
Stardust Memory
Destiny

Of these I only really want to re-watch Zeta or own the DVDs. Sadly that's a pain but it's worth it once I have te cash.

So there ya go. I hope you can forgive me for this self-indulgent post and I am very eager to hear all your thoughts on...well, my thoughts. I also look forward to posting my thoughts on 00 and Wing as I go through them.

[Dark Duel]

I do look forward to hearing what you have to say about 00. Personally, I enjoyed the show, especially the first season. The movie, however...I would say skip it.
Honestly, it's really not that great, and to me comes across as a second-rate Fafner* rehash more than anything else.
I'm equally curious to hear your thoughts on Wing, which was my personal introduction to the franchise (as I'm sure it was to most people on this continent). Upon rewatching recently, I found that I still enjoyed it - mostly - but it's not among my favorites.

But yeah, I'll be waiting to see your opinion

(*Fafner, by the way, is a BADASS show. Definitely check that out if you get the chance)

[zetatype]

0079:
I wonder if the original movie trilogy would change your mind about original series since it does cut out most of the excess flup that you find meaningless and tells a better story. Though then again you don't seem to be interested in the characters a lot so probably not much.

Personally, I love the original TV series. It has a lot of fights that i really enjoyed such as "Garma's Strikes" and "The Duel in Texas". It also has "The Trap of Mi'quve" which was sadly cut from the movies.

Zeta:
I'm actually quite surprised that you found Kamile likable compared to Amuro. I was sure you were gonna hate Kamile when i read that you thought Amuro was too whiny for your tastes.

You ever gonna take a look at 0080: War in the Pocket?

[Nikkolas]

No, I have to get back to that one, along with F91. I'm gonna save those for after I finish 00.

Which reminds me however, I also watched Char's Counterattack...and hated it.

Here's something I want to complain/ask about. All I know about Zechs from Wing is that "he goes through all 3 stages of Char." A popular reason to hate him for people on the forum I normally post at is that "he goes through development that took Char 2 TV series and a movie."

I don't know what these people watched but I didn't see any "development." What I saw was three radically different characters all sharing the same name. What I saw were three entirely different personalities that came about with no explanation. MSG Char was a bastard who could laugh while killing his supposed friend. He didn't care one bit when his men died horrifically. His only interest was revenge and later Newtypes and he certainly didn't give a thought to the Earth. Zeta Char is almost the complete opposite in how much wiser and more in-control he is. He has a problem identifying with people but you don't get the sense that he has all that burning anger inside like he did in MSG. He had moved on and grown as a human being. TheN CCA comes and BAM. Forget all that. He's now more petty and vindictive and cruel than ever before. Far from the Zeta Char who could not even comprehend Reccoa's need for affection, CCA Char understands this need all too well which is why he can so easily use Quess.

So basically we go from a scheming monster to a mentor looking to preserve the planet to a guy who wants to wipe out Earthlings because LALAH DIED! There is no subtle shift froM A to B to C - they just happen with little rhyme, reason or explanation. Some peopl eI've met offer the interpretation that "Quattro" never was as good as he made himself out to be and that Char throughout Zeta was just playing a part he never actually believed in. It's a fine theory, and goes well with the chosen venue for the final debate of the show (with Char on a stage in a theatre) but it still leaves you feeling...disappointed. I hated MSG Char but I came to really admire him in Zeta and then 50 episodes of that Char were all brushed away in an instant thanks to Char's Counterattack.

And so we come back to Zechs. If his "changes of heart" are handled faster, I can't see it being a bad thing. I won't have a whole anime of him being sane and reasonable and then all of a sudden he wants to kill everyone. Obviously I can't say one way or another about how well it's executed but it's hard to imagine anything having worse execution than Char Aznable.

[HellCat]

I think one way to look at it is everyone has breaking points. Char spent the first 20 years of his life following a vendetta drummed into him. Near the end of said crusade, the woman he'd planned to transition with is killed. 7 years later he tries and fails to stops the Zabi legacy gaining power yet again AND the Federation that he never really believed in gets worse, including the fate of Kamille. It wouldn't be too hard to believe that after all that Char lost any faith he had in being subtle and respectful of others and just slipped into his darker emotions he'd been repressing.

[Raikoh]

To me, the development Char took actually has a solid flow to it. In MSG, his goal is the destruction of the Zabi legacy. It's a bit of a simple motivation, but that's his main drive in the series. Char has never been able to feel empathy, which is the root of basically all his problems. Even Garma, who he actually liked, he had no reservations about killing. Then, you know, Lalah dies which leaves Char with a permanent mental scar (more on this later). I think that with Lalah's death, Char had taken on her philosophy that humanity should become Newtypes. This motivation makes him go from one extreme, of "kill all Zabis," to another extreme, of "everyone needs to be in space." To take the character analysis a step further, look at Char's piloting style in MSG (a lot can be found out about a person based on how they fight): he has a very direct approach, putting pressure on his opponent with a powerful offense. All of the suits he uses, with the exception of the Zeong (which came after a major turning point in his character) he uses in close-quarters combat. I'd say this is reflexive of Char's MSG character, that he is very laser focused on his goal, and is more than willing to stake his life by not wearing a Normal Suit. But after meeting Lalah, he finds a new reason to survive, a reason to not take any gambles with his life. Once Lalah dies, Char becomes intent on making her vision of the future a reality, thus giving him a more defensive, range-based piloting style with the Zeong. He's intent on surviving at all costs, going as far as to wear his Normal Suit.

In Zeta, Char (or rather Quattro) is trying to fix his problems, or at least he's trying to do so on the surface. He wants to be more empathic, but he's just faking it. When he tells Bright things like, "There's no need to worry about White Base," he doesn't understand just how rude that is to the captain. Again, this shows that he is just incapable of seeing things from others' perspective, which also ties into Reccoa's character arc (and a little bit of Haman's). Since the Zabi legacy is more or less gone, Quattro has turned to a newer idea, likely based on his memory of Lalah. He wants to usher in a Spacenoid era. He sugar coats it by saying he wants to protect the Earth, but his actual goal is to bring everyone into space and let them become Newtypes. This time, Tomino's direction makes Quattro feel very fake. His big sunglasses hide his eyes in a manner that feels like he's hiding himself even more than when he was wearing a mask, and all his movements and dialogue just feel a bit more staged, like he's merely going through the motions. Going back to his piloting style, in Zeta, Quattro has lost most of what made Char's piloting so memorable. He's still a great pilot, but as Quattro everything he does in his Mobile Suits has a lot less energy and personality to it. It's reflexive of how Quattro is closing off his true nature in the pursuit of what's "right."

CCA has Char removing his mask entirely, which ties into it being the "real" Char Aznable, or perhaps rather Casval Rem Deikun... Though I'd say Casval Rem Deikun died at the end of the One Year War, since he never went back to that. The failures he experienced in the AEUG have more or less shattered his perceptions and all his scars opened up more powerfully than ever before. He's given up trying to be empathic, because, let's face it, when he tried that he failed fairly miserably. I personally think that Char's actual main goal in the film was to get even with Amuro, and the idea of dropping Axis on Earth was just a side goal, or maybe something that would give Amuro a reason to show up. If he only wanted to drop the rock on Earth (he even tells Amuro that he isn't trying to change the world), why would he have bothered giving Amuro information about the Psycoframe? Giving Amuro the Psycoframe was the only reason he lost in the final battle, as well as the only reason Axis didn't break into Earth's atmosphere. His desire to have an even, fair fight where he could kill his rival, was a central element of his loss. It's petty, but considering also that one of Char's last line was "Lalah Sune could have been a mother to me," ties everything all back to that. He is a petty man and that's always been a part of him. If you're saying, "He's forgotten about Earth and trying to destroy it," again, Char is being manipulative there. He never cared about Earth. He views Earthnoids with relative contempt, and even Quattro's speech at Dakar was less about protecting the environment and more about moving into space. As for an analysis of Char's piloting in the film. He's gone back to a style that's really similar to how he fought in the original series, but he's completely unrestrained I think. Just look at how he uses Sazabi's beam sabers, flailing them wildly to cut his opponent to ribbons. Another thing that I would note is his willingness to take cheap shots at Amuro, who was distracted having to deal with the mission of stopping Axis, ultimately making it so that in their final one-on-one, Amuro is down to just his beam sabers while Sazabi had a nearly full loadout. Heck, he even chops through swarms of Jegan pilots just out of his desire to fight Amuro. It shows that he is unashamed of who he really is here, he wants to settle the score once and for all.

Amuro, however, fully understands Char's motivation in CCA. In the final battle, his speech to Char shows just how much he knows what Char's doing. He says, "Revolutions are dreamt up by intellectuals, but reality forces them to take drastic measures. Following a revolution, the dreams for rebirth get taken over by mediocrity. Intellectuals hate this, and withdraw from society and politics to become recluses." That's what he thinks Char was, a man tormented by the desire to change society. Char, however, saw his own desire for a parental figure in Quess and says "that's why I found her annoying and turned her into a machine." showing some sort of self-hatred. Regardless, both ways Char was a broken man who was beyond saving by the time Counterattack came (unless we're talking Super Robot Wars).

And this is why I love the character so much in all three of his major incarnations. He's so complex that the more you think about him, the more you learn about him as a person. Is he admirable? No. But he certainly is interesting. And mind you that if you're seeing three radically different characters, there are massive time gaps between 0079, Zeta, and CCA, and I think many viewers give those huge skips in history that we don't see some leeway to help buy that Char developed.

I'll conclude by saying that I personally didn't find Zechs nearly as interesting. It isn't that his development is done in one series and a film and more that he takes massive leaps, suddenly going from "Ace pilot who wants to fight Gundams" to "nutball trying to drop a space station on the planet" to "nutball who thinks total pacifism could ever work" in a nanosecond. Though that's mostly since the writing in Wing I found to be really sloppy.

[Nikkolas]

That is a very fine analysis and I'm hardly in a position to question it. I've been a fan for a month adn only watched the various series through once. i will say that one thing I enjoyed about CCA was the duality of Char to the people and Char in reality. To the people, on the outside, Char is a visionary. he is a man with a great plan for the future and it will improve all mankind. On the inside and in reality though he is motivated by simple grudges. He is doing everything for his own extremely selfish reasons. This is very realistic characterization I feel because everyone WANTS to believe they do stuff for noble reasons. However we are all plagued by our subconscious. We are ruled by old desires and motives that we don't even really acknowledge. We may try to act like we do this and this for grand reasons but the truth is often so much simpler and more personal.

Also I will say that I detest the character of Lalah. I never liked her but CCA made me hate her. Why? Because it's been over ten years and yet her "psychic ghost" is STILL present and torturing Amuro. Four and the rest hung around with Kamille and helped him defeat Scirocco but Lalah's continued presence is nothing but a hindrance. If she was popping up in Char's head just like she was in Amuro's, no wonder the poor guy never recovered and only got worse.

[LightningCount]

Couple of side notes/replies:

1.) I have to say, from my experience (and it's been a while), that it was the villains of 0079 that made it work. I never cared too much for Amuro or even Bright. Sayla, Sleggar, Mirai, and to some extent Kai and Ryu helped make the heroes more palatable than they otherwise would have been. However, despite some weirdness due to its vintage, the overall structure and elements of the story are so classic "hero's journey"-type material that I can't help but respect it. And Char, as a wild card, really is a game changer in the story. If you take him out, it all comes off a lot less inspired, so I've got to give that piece extra credit. Maybe I'd change my mind if I saw it again, but some of the late-game Lalah stuff bugged me, though.

2.) To this day, I have yet to find the time or interest to finish the second half of Zeta. While there were some solid stretches of episodes, I just couldn't get into it or a majority of its cast, heroes or villains. Maybe this will change with time.

3.) 0083's strengths are its villains (especially Gato), its battles, and its conspiracy-intrigue; however, many of the heroes (particularly the main/younger ones) and the awkward relationships take it down several notches.

4.) 0080 is very tightly written and the most emotionally powerful Gundam series (G-Gundam being the other one probably). 08th MS Team is the only one that perhaps rivals 0080 in my spot for top UC animated tale. Its opening scene is one of the best in all of Gundam or anime.

5.) Char's Counterattack is a mixed bag that can be both compelling and annoying all at once. It's been a while since I've watched it, so I can't say too much about it. But the fact that it's not clear to me whether it or F91 is the more enjoyable UC movie says something about my opinion of it.

6.) F91 is a weird production. It was supposed to be part of larger TV series that never happened. As a result, you get a to-be-continued/cliffhanger-type movie that might take multiple viewings to even understand. That said, it feels like a more emotionally genuine 0079 to me, and I actually find a number of its characters to be fairly memorable. I think it has the best main character and couple for a mainline (non-side-story) UC entry. It has a lot of cool new design work and notable animation, and some of its ideas sometimes seem to make it an Alternate Universe tale as much as a UC reboot. For a one-shot, it seems to have had an influence on the future of Gundam. Like 0080, it has some really unique and iconic scenes. Oh, the dub is really solid on this one, too. One of the more naturalistic dubs.

7.) I hated SEED when I first saw it, but thought it was pretty good when rewatching it. The beginning plays it a little too close to 0079 for my tastes, but the supporting cast and certain villains like Rau really help, and when it goes in its own directions, it has some interesting and fairly unique spins on Gundam. It really drives home the dangers of "eye for an eye." The Desert, Alaska, and Orb arcs are my favorite.

8.) SEED Destiny is something that has a lot of good elements, but it doesn't execute well enough, especially down the stretch. It gets wrapped up in too many petty story/character elements that don't matter. I think the early episodes are among some of the most compelling in Gundam, though, and while not used to the best effect, it's cast of new characters (like Durandal) are far more interesting overall than SEED's.

9.) Gundam 00 has a great First Season with just a few slight (but perhaps necessary) annoyances in the 3rd quarter of the series, and a fantastic ending. Second Season starts out all right, and has some nice ideas and scenarios, but feels very rushed and messy, not unlike Destiny for me, but maybe even less interesting in its character decisions. The Movie does have some Fafner and Yukikaze anime elements to it, but despite being a bit jarring at points, it accomplishes a fair amount successfully in what it set out to do despite its limited run time. Weird as it can be, after watching it a second time, it does seem a somewhat logical conclusion toward where the plot was shifting in Season 2. I found it more enjoyable than the Second Season, but not as good as the First Season.

10.) Gundam Wing, despite a few animation hiccups and episodes lost to scheduling problems, I've got a lot of love for. The series is great. The sequel, Endless Waltz, can feel a bit contrived in some of its plot points, but does wrap up things pretty well, and has great animation to boot. Endless Waltz is best taken as a curtain call.

11.) So let me comment on Wing and Zechs for a sec. Yes, as you've heard, Wing gets flak for remixing various elements of Universal Century (not that other Gundams haven't). But in spite of this, outside of the later X and 00, you won't find another Gundam (or anime) series that's even similar. Nevertheless, one of those things inspired by UC is Zechs. I'm not going to spoil the specifics, but comparing him to Char is somewhat understandable but ultimately unfair, and viewing him as just that coming in will warp your experience to see some things that aren't there. Yes, both men go through dramatic changes, but each has completely different reasons/motives for those changes. Pay attention to what it is, deep down, that drives Zechs as a character, and the situations that arise because of it, and you can see why he reacts and/or changes as he does. Gundam Wing involves a lot of viewer involvement, as it can be more subtle, showing not telling, with its cast. It's one of the reasons it's my favorite, but also one of the reasons people find its characters odd or annoying. Regardless, I heard you ask a while back about masked men. From my experience, Zechs is my favorite, followed by Rau (for being crazy like a fox) and Iron Mask Carozzo in F91 (for being utterly different and the most intimidating), and then I give an honorable mention to Neo in Destiny for being the most casual.

12.) One last note about Wing. Unlike nearly every Gundam series/timeline, there isn't a defined "Newtype" or "Coordinator" etc element of human evolution. So, it loses that semi-supernatural element.

[HellCat]

9.) Gundam 00 has a great First Season with just a few slight (but perhaps necessary) annoyances in the 3rd quarter of the series, and a fantastic ending. Second Season starts out all right, and has some nice ideas and scenarios, but feels very rushed and messy, not unlike Destiny for me, but maybe even less interesting in its character decisions. The Movie does have some Fafner and Yukikaze anime elements to it, but despite being a bit jarring at points, it accomplishes a fair amount successfully in what it set out to do despite its limited run time. Weird as it can be, after watching it a second time, it does seem a somewhat logical conclusion toward where the plot was shifting in Season 2. I found it more enjoyable than the Second Season, but not as good as the First Season.

At least 00 didn't keep changing its mind on who the lead was. Speaking personally, after the sheer mess that was Destiny it was 00 that made me interested in Gundam again. I think it's a consistent three part story and don't really understand why people act like the ideas in season two and the movie come out of nowhere instead of the intentional difference between how we enter and exit that world.

[latenlazy]

9.) Gundam 00 has a great First Season with just a few slight (but perhaps necessary) annoyances in the 3rd quarter of the series, and a fantastic ending. Second Season starts out all right, and has some nice ideas and scenarios, but feels very rushed and messy, not unlike Destiny for me, but maybe even less interesting in its character decisions. The Movie does have some Fafner and Yukikaze anime elements to it, but despite being a bit jarring at points, it accomplishes a fair amount successfully in what it set out to do despite its limited run time. Weird as it can be, after watching it a second time, it does seem a somewhat logical conclusion toward where the plot was shifting in Season 2. I found it more enjoyable than the Second Season, but not as good as the First Season.

At least 00 didn't keep changing its mind on who the lead was. Speaking personally, after the sheer mess that was Destiny it was 00 that made me interested in Gundam again. I think it's a consistent three part story and don't really understand why people act like the ideas in season two and the movie come out of nowhere instead of the intentional difference between how we enter and exit that world.

I can see where the criticism of 00 S2 comes from, but it is a bit overblown. 00 S2's biggest problems were that there just weren't enough compelling layers to what was ultimately a rather bland setup to a final conflict. The individual character conflicts were interesting, but otherwise the entire S2 revolved around what surmounted to a Ribbons vanity project. The series would have been better if the fate of humanity's "innovation" involved more than the single dimension of CB/ vs the Innovades/A-Laws. One of the most awesome ideas in S2, the occupation of the elevator and the coup, was a prime example of this critical flaw, because it would have been far more compelling if we had a better idea of what the world was like after the formation of the Federation, and how that related to the goals of CB and Aeolia Schenberg. In other words, S2 didn't continue what was one of the strongest points of S1, which was very efficient but effective world building. Without it, the major themes of S2 lacked any real punch and substance.

Still, S2 was good enough, and will never be the confused trainwreck that SEED Destiny became.

[Kratos]

Good analyses, and welcome to the forums! Some thoughts:

1) While I don't entirely disagree about MSG, MAN did we ever have different reactions to the White Base crew. While they certainly went through their rough moments early on, the dynamic that it provided was a big part of the early-series tension: Zeon was a threat, sure, but so was the situation on the White Base itself. That situation never really dipped into over-wrought melodrama, but still managed to keep things tense. On top of that, I found that the development that they go through both individually and as a whole to be a huge contribution to how satisfying the series feels at its conclusion. Yeah, Amuro was a petulant child, but teenagers are often petulant children (and he has NOTHING on Kamille). It's like complaining about Shinji, or ANH Luke Skywalker: a character need not be a perfect, likable human being to be a good character, so long as their imperfections serve a purpose within the narrative being told. Actually,　that reminds me of something that I really disliked about SEED: the Archangel crew (including Kira himself) were all so blandly likable that there was almost NO dynamic, and yet it still managed to be filled with over-wrought melodrama. Natarle was indeed the best of the bunch, but she got such little screen time and really only ever interacted with Murrue. Every character on the White Base had a distinct personality and a distinct way of interacting with each other.

But you're right - being a fan of something means acknowledging its faults. MSG has weird pacing (both in storytelling and actual technical execution) and plenty of things about it make it a relic. I like the episodic stuff, but mostly only because it's that time spent with the characters that makes the later, genuinely great later part of the series the payoff that it is; otherwise, it's a bit of a slog to get through. People remember MSG fondly, but sometimes it isn't entirely clear whether they're remembering the series or the movies, and I think the existence of the latter cemented its legacy more than the series alone would have.

2) Though it probably will do less for you if you're not a fan of the core characters, I find that the manga Gundam THE ORIGIN is the best version of the original story and really shows how well it holds up once you fix up the pacing a bit.

3) I disagree about Char, but Raikoh covers that really well. That said, while Char didn't want to "kill all humanity" because of Lalah, Rau's motivation came off as exactly that petty to me (Ignored by daddy? KILL EVERYTHING!) I don't think I've ever felt more cheated by a Motivation Reveal.

4) Perhaps it's obvious from my last couple points, but I don't care much for SEED at all. I thought it was an alright series in its first, like, third and had a huge amount of potential, but it dropped the ball so consistently in its execution that I sometimes wondered if Fukuda was doing it on purpose. As for Kira, my issues with him stem not from him being angsty - they stem from him being PERFECT. He's always right, both in his actions and his morals. While this merely made him boring early in the series, it really becomes a narrative problem after his Resurrection (and continuing into Destiny). As such, I'm not a huge fan of SEED's endgame - it was all so contrived, from Kira's background and moral domination (ULTIMATE COORDINATOR!) to the ridiculous snivelling evil of the Federation to Rau's motivation.

5) We pretty much completely agree on 0083.

6) I think my favourite series are probably 0080, Turn-A, 08th, MSG, and (unless it REALLY drops the ball in its last episode) Unicorn. The anime for THE ORIGIN is likely to fall second to 0080 if it does the manga any justice.

[Nikkolas]

Just finished episode 5 of 00.


1. Graham Aker: "What are the odds? You and I meeting like this... Ya know, being a sentimental Virgo and all, I can't help feeling we were destined to meet."

"That was a surprise. Did you foresee that happening?"
Graham Aker: "My godlike powers must be slipping."

Gundam's message of how adults are responsible for all the evils of the world is really undercut by how adults tend to be so much more awesome than the teenagers. When will a Gundam protagonist have the suaveness of an Aker or even La Flaga?

2. I was gonna say the Meister who interested me most was Allelujah, even before episode 5. He just seemed to have the most emotional range as of that time, expressing his apparent distaste for how Celestial Being was basically curb-stomping and bullying everyone. With episode 5 and the hints at his backstory, and this apparent multiple personality, I am even more intrigued. He's also voiced by Richard Ian Cox who's voice is a bit too distinct to change wholly but he's made it much more subdued than usual and I like it.

3. Speaking of voice-actors, Brad Swaile is amazing. To think he did Amuro, Dearka and now Setsuna. They each sound very different to me. And on the topic of Setsuna, he also is pretty different from the Gundam heroes I've known thus far who were all essentially Ordinary high School students dropped in a war. Setsuna though, with his obvious intense trauma rendering him apathetic and cold, maybe isn't the best choice to handle your amazing technology. Or hell, handing it over to a guy with an id personality? Then again, maybe nobody knows about that. Plus I'm gonna exercise my super-genius and say that Celestial Being ISN'T just about stopping war. Bold words I know but even as morally ambiguous as it is that they just attack whoever they please, it doesn't seem ambiguous enough. They have to actually be after world domination or something.

4. I'm having a hard time figuring out how Saji and Louise fit into all this. Their little romantic hijinks just seem out-of-place.

5. Was that newsroom stuff important? It be cool if one of the characters was like a journalist or something. I dunno, just seeing the FUTURE News like that was something I haven't seen before in Gundam and it be cool if it stuck around in some capacity.

6. Celestial Being helped stop the IRA? Wow...that's quite the feat. I guess I can see what people mean when they say this series more than any other tries to tackle current political issues. It is certainly a change of pace. And hey, even SEED never was so obvious about the US being outright manipulative and evil. 00 pulled that card right off the bat.

7. Oh and one more thing episode 5 did - I WAS gonna say that "[about Supersoldier #1] Oh hey, we already have our Cyber Newtype/Extended. That was quick. Although she seems nice and sane compared to the others." And then episode 5 happened and well...that didn't last long. I guess artificial superhumans are just never going to work out well in Gundam.

Overall I'm enjoying it quite a bit. The pacing feels much quicker than what I've seen in other Gundam TV series and a lot of characters are being introduced all at once I'm trying to keep up with all the factions and stuff. There's the three big ones, Celestial Being, some princess girl, and I have no idea what any of them are up to. So much intrigue.

[Sinquser]

One of the most awesome ideas in S2, the occupation of the elevator and the coup, was a prime example of this critical flaw, because it would have been far more compelling if we had a better idea of what the world was like after the formation of the Federation, and how that related to the goals of CB and Aeolia Schenberg....

They did actually. Interchanging in between episodes 5, 6, abit of 7 and then 8. The thing I can agree a bit was that the world building was not as interesting as Season 1. There were up to 5 factions going around (plus Saji`s/Kinue's insight as civilians) the tune in first season, with all of them going all out at the end. In Season 2, there are only 3 or 4 important ones, but only focus on 2 at a time until the end.

[latenlazy]

One of the most awesome ideas in S2, the occupation of the elevator and the coup, was a prime example of this critical flaw, because it would have been far more compelling if we had a better idea of what the world was like after the formation of the Federation, and how that related to the goals of CB and Aeolia Schenberg....

They did actually. Interchanging in between episodes 5, 6, abit of 7 and then 8. The thing I can agree a bit was that the world building was not as interesting as Season 1. There were up to 5 factions going around (plus Saji`s/Kinue's insight as civilians) the tune in first season, with all of them going all out at the end. In Season 2, there are only 3 or 4 important ones, but only focus on 2 at a time until the end.

I know, but it wasn't enough, especially depth wise. The worst part is that all fell to the wayside in the last fourth of the season, which made all the development of those factions feel like a waste. They tried though and it did good enough so it wasn't terrible, just not great.

[LightningCount]

Hey, everyone, no specific spoilers for the guy just watching it now! Tag the spoilers!

When will a Gundam protagonist have the suaveness of an Aker or even La Flaga?

Off the top of my head, Roybea, pilot of the Gundam Leopard from Gundam X might count. He's a smooth and poetic talker. First appears at the end of Episode 1. (http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Roybea_Loy). As an aside, Gundam X has one of the most amazing casts of characters in all of Gundam.

Speaking of voice-actors, Brad Swaile is amazing. To think he did Amuro, Dearka and now Setsuna. They each sound very different to me. And on the topic of Setsuna, he also is pretty different from the Gundam heroes I've known thus far who were all essentially Ordinary high School students dropped in a war. Setsuna though, with his obvious intense trauma rendering him apathetic and cold, maybe isn't the best choice to handle your amazing technology. Or hell, handing it over to a guy with an id personality? Then again, maybe nobody knows about that. Plus I'm gonna exercise my super-genius and say that Celestial Being ISN'T just about stopping war. Bold words I know but even as morally ambiguous as it is that they just attack whoever they please, it doesn't seem ambiguous enough. They have to actually be after world domination or something.

Brad Swaile started his Gundam acting gig with Quatre Rebaba Winner in Gundam Wing, which was a big boost to his visibility in voice acting. As for Setsuna being different, let's just say the trend of "different" Gundam heroes began with G-Gundam and carried on through Wing, X, and Turn-A (as far as I can tell) before SEED reset things, and AGE and Unicorn reinforced that viewpoint of an ordinary/chance pilot. As for the overall plot, wait and see. Maybe you're onto something?

I'm having a hard time figuring out how Saji and Louise fit into all this. Their little romantic hijinks just seem out-of-place.

Hmm. This is a tough call. I felt most annoyed by them the first time through. That said, without saying too much, they're supposed to be the civilian narrators that show you how the world is changing from Celestial Being and what those changes do to ordinary people. It works up to a point, but for me, when all is said and done, their role is both understated and then overstated to an awkward end result.

Was that newsroom stuff important? It be cool if one of the characters was like a journalist or something. I dunno, just seeing the FUTURE News like that was something I haven't seen before in Gundam and it be cool if it stuck around in some capacity.

The newsroom stuff serves as extra narration. There is a little bit of this in Gundam Wing, as well, though here, you will get recurring characters from the news. Some of it works really well. The 1998 mecha political thriller by Sunrise called Gasaraki really played up the newsroom angle to tell its story, and there seems to be vestiges of Gasaraki in Gundam 00 at points.

Oh and one more thing episode 5 did - I WAS gonna say that "[about Supersoldier #1] Oh hey, we already have our Cyber Newtype/Extended. That was quick. Although she seems nice and sane compared to the others." And then episode 5 happened and well...that didn't last long. I guess artificial superhumans are just never going to work out well in Gundam.

I think the idea is a little more fitting and palatable here in some ways; but yes, this is another series with that element. Like I said before, just as a point of contrast, while one might read between the lines, Wing doesn't ever blatantly claim to have any sort of archetypal Newtype or Cyber Newtype elements, which makes it really different even from the 00 series that it's been compared to in recent years.

Overall I'm enjoying it quite a bit. The pacing feels much quicker than what I've seen in other Gundam TV series and a lot of characters are being introduced all at once I'm trying to keep up with all the factions and stuff. There's the three big ones, Celestial Being, some princess girl, and I have no idea what any of them are up to. So much intrigue.

Intrigue, fast pacing, tons of characters and organizations all at once, etc. You're being prepped well for Wing. Some of the fun of these alternate universes is figuring out how everything fits into place compared to the archetypal Zeon vs. Federation-type story (though that isn't without its own charms).

[Nikkolas]

Thanks for all the insight LightningCount! I really appreciate it. With any luck my Wing DVDs will be here in 2 weeks (3 weeks max) and we can start talking about that too.

To continue the Char talk though, what do people make of how the one and only time "Quattro" really loses his cool is when he meets the young Mineva and listens to her parrot everything Haman has drilled into her head? If part of what "broke him" was the restoration of the Zabi family to power, why was he apparently so outraged by Mineva being used?

Also there is one thought I wrote about when going through Zeta that I want to repost here:
http://i.imgur.com/0EJl4oc.png
http://i.imgur.com/cz7kixc.png

Yeah...all my love for Zeta Char almost died there. Garma would like to offer a counter-opinion but unfortunately he's dead.
Because you betrayed him.

[latenlazy]

To continue the Char talk though, what do people make of how the one and only time "Quattro" really loses his cool is when he meets the young Mineva and listens to her parrot everything Haman has drilled into her head? If part of what "broke him" was the restoration of the Zabi family to power, why was he apparently so outraged by Mineva being used?

Also there is one thought I wrote about when going through Zeta that I want to repost here:
http://i.imgur.com/0EJl4oc.png
http://i.imgur.com/cz7kixc.png

Yeah...all my love for Zeta Char almost died there. Garma would like to offer a counter-opinion but unfortunately he's dead.
Because you betrayed him.

Char's enmity probably ended when he killed the last of Dozle's children. Mineva was a child who was up to then unspoiled by the poison of the Zabi family, and he probably didn't want her to be tainted by that association. After all, deep down inside Char believes in decency and honour and the stuff.

Furthermore, I personally think he probably hates more than anything to see innocent people being used for ideology. For those who point out that he later goes on to use others himself, by then I imagine that Char was motivating his actions and himself with a fair amount of either conscious or subconscious self loathing. Part of his fall into cynicism was also an abandonment of principles he might've held more dearly earlier in his life. One could also make an argument that Char used women as mother figures a lot, but I do not think that was conscious on his part.

As for Char and betrayal...I don't think Char thought of his "betrayal" of Garma as a betrayal honestly. His intention was always to kill Garma. He became his friend solely for that reason.

[HellCat]

Mineva very much seems to be an issue of atonement for Char. He'd helped kill all the blood stained Zabis and here was this innocent young girl he'd had a bond with from a very young age. He leaves her for a number of years and suddenly she's spouting a script about a fascist regime she doesn't even comprehend. It ties in pretty neatly to the idea Zeta-era Char is a man doing his best to make sure humanity can actually progress from the mistakes of the One Year War. It was made several years later, but Unicorn has the now teenage Mineva talk at length about what Char taught her and how it helped her to see the truth of Zeon.

The finale of CCA adds to this, when Amuro calls out the fact that Char has given up weighting for humanity to mature. Unicorn itself has actually served as a solid addition to this, raising the idea of if it's worth hoping and fighting for a better future you won't personally live to see or make a comfortable life in the time you personally have.

[Nikkolas]

Garma's hands were blood-stained because he was like...9 or so when Char's father was killed?

Also MSG made me feel more sympathetic to Sovereign Zabi than I ever did for Char. He spends the entire anime heartbroken over his son's death and then he even tries to foster peace with the Federation. If I was supposed to view him as some sort of evil mastermind, the storytelling failed on that front.

[HellCat]

I find it hard to feel sorry for Degwin when he only tries to stop the war when one of his own children has been killed. How many men, women and children from either side had died at this point? I don't think it's too far from the mark to see Degwin's actions as selfish, especially since he realised Ghiren had his eyes set on taking his place as supreme leader.