The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk III

[Quiddity]

14 episodes in now and the show is starting to drop in quality. 2 episodes in a row where Shinn and the others have been completely ignored in favor of giving Kira the spotlight again. I generally like Cagalli and feel bad for her being in the situation she was in (and hopefully is out of now) but wish Athrun could have instead taken the role that Kira ended up having. First 12 episodes were fairly good, and things were escalating a lot quicker than in Seed, although how quickly things got back into war again showed just how rushed and futile the peace that we got at the end of Seed was. Hoping we start focusing on the main cast again but I figure this must be around the time when Kira steals the spotlight the rest of the way.

[excalibur2008]

I dislike the whole OS thing because it really plays into the badly fumbled anti-racism message they attempted in CE. "Everybody is equal, we're all human! ...Except for those designer babies, they're better than you stupid Muggles in every way."

Though, other than the OS stuff I don't see anything that makes Coordinators look better than Naturals.

[excalibur2008]

wish Athrun could have instead taken the role that Kira ended up having. \

What and have the old cast get slaughtered becuase of his twitishness?

[monster]

I dislike the whole OS thing because it really plays into the badly fumbled anti-racism message they attempted in CE. "Everybody is equal, we're all human! ...Except for those designer babies, they're better than you stupid Muggles in every way."

They may be physically/mentally better than the average naturals, but the idea that you should be respectful to other people only if they are no better than you would be the wrong kind of message to send.

Though, other than the OS stuff I don't see anything that makes Coordinators look better than Naturals.

On average, their bodies are more resistant to diseases and some harmful environments (see Strike's atmospheric entry) and have increased physical and mental potentials.

[excalibur2008]

Though, other than the OS stuff I don't see anything that makes Coordinators look better than Naturals.

On average, their bodies are more resistant to diseases and some harmful environments (see Strike's atmospheric entry) and have increased physical and mental potentials.

And yet they still die like regular old soldiers in fire fights. And I've never really seen many physical feats ordinary people couldn't do.

[monster]

And yet they still die like regular old soldiers in fire fights. And I've never really seen many physical feats ordinary people couldn't do.

Of course, the point is that they're still humans. Aside from being resistant to diseases, everything else they do could've been done by a natural. It just comes easier for a coordinator.

[excalibur2008]

And yet they still die like regular old soldiers in fire fights. And I've never really seen many physical feats ordinary people couldn't do.

Of course, the point is that they're still humans. Aside from being resistant to diseases, everything else they do could've been done by a natural. It just comes easier for a coordinator.

Which makes me wonder why genetic enhancement is such a big deal instead of a passing fad people got bored with especially since it sounded expensive.

Which also makes me wonder why Coordinators aren't running the world seeing as they would need rich parents to exist, and well rich people kind of have most of the power on this planet.

[monster]

Which makes me wonder why genetic enhancement is such a big deal instead of a passing fad people got bored with especially since it sounded expensive.

Just the fact that they're more resistant to diseases would be enough enticements for certain parents. And then there's the fact that they could potentially be more accomplished.

Which also makes me wonder why Coordinators aren't running the world seeing as they would need rich parents to exist, and well rich people kind of have most of the power on this planet.

Apparently there are plenty of rich people who decided not to do it, for one reason or another, perhaps with pressure from peers or because they simply have no desire for messing with their children.

[LightningCount]

14 episodes in now and the show is starting to drop in quality. 2 episodes in a row where Shinn and the others have been completely ignored in favor of giving Kira the spotlight again. I generally like Cagalli and feel bad for her being in the situation she was in (and hopefully is out of now) but wish Athrun could have instead taken the role that Kira ended up having. First 12 episodes were fairly good, and things were escalating a lot quicker than in Seed, although how quickly things got back into war again showed just how rushed and futile the peace that we got at the end of Seed was. Hoping we start focusing on the main cast again but I figure this must be around the time when Kira steals the spotlight the rest of the way.

As I bolded in your comment, for me, the beginning of Destiny really did a solid job of building off of the narrative and loose ends of SEED, focusing on some of the strongest elements from said prequel.

However, the drawn out (and borderline goofy) wedding-crashing, that for me was probably the first significant bump in the road in the overall narrative. I would say, though, that there are still spurts of episodes where it will get back on track, and have some moments one could highlight with the best of Gundam. I'm not 100% convinced yet that Destiny deserves to be singled out to the extent that it does around here.

Now, balancing Kira and crew is one of Destiny's biggest and most legitimate issues (those scenes often feel sandwiched in or too lengthy for the amount of value they give following the rather enjoyable ASH sequence; however, when I run through the narrative in my mind without them, I realize the show's themes wouldn't carry though properly. The execution may be flawed, but it later becomes apparent in the bigger scheme of things that this Archangel "perspective" was needed. I'm not saying I liked the way it was handled, but I do, in retrospect, see what the initial idea/intention was of bringing back Kira, and it wasn't about fanboy/fangirl-writer hijacking.

As it is, the show's strengths are with the Minerva's crew, the unconventional war it is facing, and the interesting philosophical exchanges that occur as a result. (In terms of dialogue exchanges, if you like abstract discussions, I think Destiny has some of the best outside of Wing.)

I am currently on Episode 32 of my rewatch, and I wish I had been taking notes these past months as I was going. From recent memory, though, I can say: Episodes 15-19 will get back on track. Episode 20 is a missed opportunity, but serves its purpose, and is a minor hiccup at worst. Episodes 21-25 are a mixed bag, having some great moments right next to segments that give at least a mild sense of tiresome repetition. Episode 26-27 seemed to drag on. Episode 28 again has a sense of tiresome repetition, yet manages a few big highlight moments that elevate it. Episode 29 is again a bit of a missed opportunity on one level; and yet, it manages to be VERY memorable and much more important to the plot than Episode 20. In fact, Episode 29 is the crux of the series, and is an prime example of what I was talking about with Destiny's dialogue exchanges. Episodes 30-32 have been a bit more choppy than I remembered, but have proven to be an entertaining and poignant arc. That's as far as I am on the rewatch. I would note that I think Destiny, while it has far too many flashbacks* and certainly reuses more animation than it needs to, has some very good animation and choreography that I believe is a step up from Gundam SEED.

*I wonder if all the flashbacks were a result of schedule/budget problems, or if it was more to the point that the writers thought some of the longer dialogue exchanges would be boring for younger viewers without interspersed scenes of fighting or "classic SEED moments/characters."

Now, going from memory from years ago, it's somewhere between Episode 34 and Episode 37 where the series last feels like it's largely under control. As I recall, it has some okay ideas after those episodes, but the majority of it is rushed and the animation takes a nosedive in quality.

We shall see...

By the way, I think that a number of the seeds from Gundam 00 were planted in the narrative of Destiny. 00 changes the trappings, but some of 00's structural concepts seemed to be brought forth here.

[HellCat]

I dislike the whole OS thing because it really plays into the badly fumbled anti-racism message they attempted in CE. "Everybody is equal, we're all human! ...Except for those designer babies, they're better than you stupid Muggles in every way."

At least SEED attempted it. By Destiny, the story might as well have just been 'Earthnoids vs Spacenoids' for various reasons.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I'm talking from the point of view of the writing. The Freedom is repaired and is still able to obliterate anything on sight. When has an "old" machine in Gundam be so powerful before or after?

The one thing that astounds me about some Gundam shows is how unlike with more realistic space militaries some of the ones in Gundam will have their equpiment outdated in two years, hell ZZ probably has the record at what a few weeks.

Actually ZZ may actually be the opposite case, with the main example being the infamous Gundam team which included the Gundam Mk II, a MS that was already considered outdated during the previous war to the point it was given an update in the form of the G-Defensor.

There's also the bunch of old units that keep popping in the series, many of which end up going 1 on 1 against the ZZ Gundam: Desert Zaku, Dowadge, Gelgoog, Zaku II, ReGelg, etc.

I guess the ultimate example is the final battle between the Gundam ZZ and Haman's Qubeley, which remains unchanged from the Gryps war. According to Mark, the Qubeley is completed on U.C. 0086, which means that by early U.C. 0089 it's already more than two years old:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 6&start=20

As for mass produced units, although Axis/Neo Zeon end up rolling many new machines, the Gaza C (also produced on U.C. 0086) remains the most widely available Zeon MS during most of the war.

It's only by early U.C. 0089 (towards the end of the war) that the Gaza D finally seems to have replaced it. By U.C. 0096, the Gaza D also seems to be the most widely available MS at Palau (at least according to what we see in the OVAs).

On the other hand, I have personally speculated that the Geara Doga might have been the actual competition of the Dooben Wolf rather than the Zaku III, which some sources indicate that just like the Dreissen, was based on the old MS of the Principality in order to speed up development (thus confirmign that it was deployed early during the conflict, as hinted by the units briefly seen during Neo Zeon's occupation of Dakar). Either way, the Geara Doga itself is said to have been produced based on the blueprints from a MS from the previous Neo Zeon movement, so it's still technically a MS from the First Neo Zeon. The Shamblo is supposed to have a similar background.

Add the fact that the little info we have on the Geara Zulu's relative performance to the Geara Doga basically refuses to call the former an actual improvement over the later, and we could oversimplify things and say that the majority of the units used by the Sleeves by U.C. 0096 are designs dating from the late U.C. 0080's:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 88#p285608

[latenlazy]

Also keep in mind that during constant intense warfare the iteration of new weapons happen much faster. We see for example the clip of new weapon creation during world war II compared to the cold war. This is for two reasons. The first is simply a matter of demand and industrial focus. The second is because testing time is compressed to field the latest sooner. The latter point doesn't always immediately mean mass production though. Instead what you have is limited production with testing folded into the field with active missions. In fact this is EXACTLY what we see in UC. It's highly significant that despite the diversity of mobile suits few make it to mass production, and even fewer are mass produced quickly. Most of the mobile suit iterations we see are experimental and few are more than one offs. Time to mass production is tightly related to the complexity of the machine, or highly complex prototypes are stripped down or simplified. We also see a cool down of development after the second Neo Zeon war. Then add the unique modularity of mobile suits as a concept (aided by Anaheim's double dealing no less) enabling both high variation and quick iteration top these points. All these factors considered the pace of new machines in UC is not as extreme as initial impressions may suggest.

[BrentD15]

On the other hand, I have personally speculated that the Geara Doga might have been the actual competition of the Dooben Wolf rather than the Zaku III, which some sources indicate that just like the Dreissen, was based on the old MS of the Principality in order to speed up development (thus confirmign that it was deployed early during the conflict, as hinted by the units briefly seen during Neo Zeon's occupation of Dakar). Either way, the Geara Doga itself is said to have been produced based on the blueprints from a MS from the previous Neo Zeon movement, so it's still technically a MS from the First Neo Zeon. The Shamblo is supposed to have a similar background.

Spoiler

I still say it was the Zaku III Late Production Type.
By the end of the First Neo Zeon War, the Doven Wolf (no way am I calling it "Dooben Wolf") would've been too expensive to consider further production, so Neo Zeon had to go back to the Zaku III Late Type to figure out a method of refining it while keeping production costs low. The result was the Geara Doga series.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Spoiler

I still say it was the Zaku III Late Production Type.
By the end of the First Neo Zeon War, the Doven Wolf (no way am I calling it "Dooben Wolf") would've been too expensive to consider further production, so Neo Zeon had to go back to the Zaku III Late Type to figure out a method of refining it while keeping production costs low. The result was the Geara Doga series.

I had partially addressed that issue on another thread:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... &view=next

But now, after the last UC OVA showed us another Zaku III, I'm more inclined to think that the Zaku III Late Type and its land type cousin might simply be units with different add-ons. That's precisely what the profile of the AMX-011S says about Mashymere's unit. The Zaku III seen on U.C. 0096 has the left shoulder armor seen on the AMX-011S and replaces the standard beam gun/sabers of the standard AMX-011 with sub-arms equipped with beam sabers.

What about the AMX-011C? IF we take artistic differences aside and check the lineart without backpacks of both units, we see that they pretty much share msot traits, and much liek the unit from U.C. 0096, the AMX-011C uses a left shoulder armor that seems similar to the one first seen on the AMX-011S:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/AMX-011_Zaku_III
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/AMX-011C_Z ... _Late_Type

Also, while I don't knwo the source, the profile of Zaku III includes lineart of more optional weapons, backpacks and skirts for the standard Zaku III.

I think it would be a safe assumption that the Zaku III Late Type is simply a common configuration for the Zaku III during the late stages of the 1st Neo Zeon War. There do is a precedent for a similar situation: IIRC such is the case of the RGM-79SC which was used by Francis Backmayer and which became the most popular configuration of that unit, though it initially wasn't the standard configuration.

In short, I think the AMX-011C is most likely a configuration that was more useful/popular than the standard configuration, but ultimately not a new MS. The performance of such configuration would serve as the baseline for the new Geara Doga series.

Last but not least, the PS3 game Gundam Side Stories, namely the Missing Link story, gives us a fully operational Geara Doga by U.C. 0090, which reinforces the idea that the design was around long before Char's Neo Zeon began building up their military forces, thus making it more likely for it to be leftover from Haman's Neo Zeon.

[Quiddity]

Ugh, I suppose it comes with the territory given its the Seed sequel, but going into episode 20 I was really looking forward to it, hoping we'd get a lot more backstory for Shinn, who has been sorely underdeveloped to this point. Instead we get a clip show filled mostly with clips from Seed and we only get 2-3 minutes of Shinn's history. -_-

The next episode repeating several of the same flashbacks again and replaying much of the elongated dinner scene from just 2 episodes prior. At least Shinn has finally met Stella after showing them together in the opening/closing sequences for the first 20 episodes. Could it be ever more obvious that this is their version of Kamille and Four?

[BrentD15]

Ugh, I suppose it comes with the territory given its the Seed sequel, but going into episode 20 I was really looking forward to it, hoping we'd get a lot more backstory for Shinn, who has been sorely underdeveloped to this point. Instead we get a clip show filled mostly with clips from Seed and we only get 2-3 minutes of Shinn's history. -_-

The next episode repeating several of the same flashbacks again and replaying much of the elongated dinner scene from just 2 episodes prior. At least Shinn has finally met Stella after showing them together in the opening/closing sequences for the first 20 episodes. Could it be ever more obvious that this is their version of Kamille and Four?

This is Fukuda we're talking about. Subtlety isn't his strong point.

And it just gives them an excuse to repeat the tired trope of "The Lalah".

[LightningCount]

Ugh, I suppose it comes with the territory given its the Seed sequel, but going into episode 20 I was really looking forward to it, hoping we'd get a lot more backstory for Shinn, who has been sorely underdeveloped to this point. Instead we get a clip show filled mostly with clips from Seed and we only get 2-3 minutes of Shinn's history. -_-

Yeah, not sure if you missed my non-spoiler comments above in reply to your last post. Episode 20 is a missed opportunity, but it does marginally serve its purpose with a few nice mini-insights; and like its SEED-pedigreed clip shows, it isn't a total series killer, just a hiccup.

The next episode repeating several of the same flashbacks again and replaying much of the elongated dinner scene from just 2 episodes prior. At least Shinn has finally met Stella after showing them together in the opening/closing sequences for the first 20 episodes. Could it be ever more obvious that this is their version of Kamille and Four?

You said it, not us...

I don't think anyone will agree with me, but for my money, the Shinn and Stella "situation" is a lot more emotionally raw and effective than the story of Kamille and Four (which has been overrated, in my opinion). I'm not saying it's perfect or totally fresh, but with Shinn and Stella, you basically have two people who cannot communicate and are struggling to do so. Shinn is locked up with so much anger and sadness that he doesn't truly know how to develop his social skills much at all; he's desperately looking for something/someone to tangibly protect, someone to replace the sister he couldn't save and justify the path he has taken in life. Stella is someone who cannot have normal social skills because of her twisted background, but subconsciously desires comfort, safety, and a sense of freedom. What you essentially have is two wild beasts struggling with what "love" could be for them, acting on instinct and impulse, rather than two level-headed human beings with clear-headed views. The results cause a lot of strife for many viewers, but I think the results are only natural.

Side note: I notice there has been a lot of talk about UC MS development history hijacking the thread lately...

[BrentD15]

What you essentially have is two wild beasts struggling with what "love" could be for them, acting on instinct and impulse, rather than two level-headed human beings with clear-headed views.

To be honest, Four and Kamille aren't exactly the definition of "level-headed"; they just seem to gel naturally with each other. Also, I can see Kamille trying to rescue Four as an attempt to prove Amuro and Char wrong, that history doesn't have to repeat itself.
But then it ultimately does anyway.

And also, why does he need Stella to feel the need to protect someone when he has the Mineva and his wingmen Lunamaria, Rey, and Athrun for that?

[monster]

And also, why does he need Stella to feel the need to protect someone when he has the Mineva and his wingmen Lunamaria, Rey, and Athrun for that?

He didn't. But just because he had people to protect, it doesn't mean he would ignore other people. Also, his teammates were fellow soldiers who worked with him. People like Stella and the civilians he rescued from the EA were victims who weren't even in a position to fight and save themselves. So their need for him was even greater than the need of his teammates, and he reacted in turn to that.

[LightningCount]

What you essentially have is two wild beasts struggling with what "love" could be for them, acting on instinct and impulse, rather than two level-headed human beings with clear-headed views.

To be honest, Four and Kamille aren't exactly the definition of "level-headed"; they just seem to gel naturally with each other. Also, I can see Kamille trying to rescue Four as an attempt to prove Amuro and Char wrong, that history doesn't have to repeat itself.
But then it ultimately does anyway.

And also, why does he need Stella to feel the need to protect someone when he has the Mineva and his wingmen Lunamaria, Rey, and Athrun for that?

*Kamille and Four were off-kilter in a different way that ostensibly came across more like "two crazy teens in love going about the town." Four seemed more outgoing despite her past, cracking Kamille's shell; the dynamic was different. It was a swift Newtype instant connection deal. I'm not saying it wasn't influential or appropriate for its series and time, but at this present moment, Shinn and Stella has more "punch" and "weight" for me, propelling home certain developments in characters, whether they were liked or disliked due to assumptions about past Gundam stories. It was a different animal. The less elaborate way a completely powerless Shinn loses his parents and sister, and the fact that he can't even acknowledge or return to his homeland of Orb--and worse, sees them propagating the very types of events that killed his family--anchors the importance of Stella in his life as something he perceives as pure. So, the events that follow, and how they come about, have a much bigger impact than Kamille's journey leading into and through Four.

*The Minerva, Luna, and Rey are "friends," and represent camaraderie in the military for Shinn, as well as his official duty to ZAFT. Further, they all chose to be soldiers, and are all theoretically quite capable of protecting themselves...

That Shinn so quickly assumes Stella is a "normal girl" who is a "war victim" tells us something about Shinn's mindset. Stella represents the innocent and helpless "real world" to him--the one he left behind, where there was seemingly pure moral lines with no gray areas and he and his sister and parents could live in peace--not the world defined by ZAFT or any military. He feels that the tragedy he experienced is an aberration that shouldn't be experienced by anyone else, and that he can be someone who can mend the wounds for the suffering "normal girl," because he sees himself as a suffering "normal boy" and a war victim himself. With "power," he believes he can surely mend those wounds.

Spoiler

(And Stella does prove to be much more vulnerable than Four, needing to be rescued and cared for by Shinn on several occasions.)

When Shinn goes off to liberate the workers camp, or challenges Athrun's authority,

Spoiler

or gives a slowly dying Stella to Neo

, we see what he believes. He wants a clear moral line of good and evil that represents his heart and champions the oppressed at any cost. It doesn't mean he's right, but Shinn is one who acts on his impulses and feelings, adapting the parameters to his needs to see those feelings through (thus making him the perfect pilot for the reconfigurable "Impulse" Gundam.)

The reason he acts this way, while reckless and impudent, is clearly defined from the first moment in his past, whereas Kamille starts off this way because of a questionable home life and being teased about his name; it takes a while before his parents are even in the equation for his motivations in a significant way. One can knock Shinn all they want, but the purity of his brash, idealistic mindset is compelling.

Spoiler

(Even if it leads to his downfall. Which makes him a cautionary tale, as well. Who can say that every "hero" ends up the "hero"? After what Shinn went through, it makes sense that he's a tragic "anti-hero," and that's a big change for Gundam. Orb promoting war and then Stella being forced to fight and dying at the hands of Kira, who may also have been involved in the death of his family, was the absolute last straw for Shinn. If that wasn't, Athrun's seeming betrayal was, because Athrun was someone Shinn admired deep down, even if they didn't see eye to eye. Sure, the execution overall could have been cleaner, especially near the end, but I'm not prepared to throw out the coordinator with the bathwater just yet--and this is coming from a guy who originally disliked C.E.)