The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk III

[monster]

Except in SEED Kira kills Nicol and Athrun kills Tolle and that actually really strains their friendship. Then they go at each other like madmen, and mutual KO, and they have to process their feelings of confusion and regret and pick up the pieces of their friendship afterwards.

Nothing even close happens in Destiny. Athrun and Kira scream at each other, and no one really does anything to the other of consequence.

That makes sense, considering that part of the show was about Cagalli. The consequence of their actions was on Cagalli, with Athrun delaying Kira.

Then Athrun watches his best friend go down to Shinn, who himself has an understandable but narratively weak reason for going after Kira, which then convinces Athrun to defect and reunite the super friends. That's what I mean when I say that Destiny is superficial.

To be fair, Athrun defected because of Durandal's actions, not because Shinn defeated Kira. Regardless, that is also a consequence of Kira destroying the Saviour, which in turn affected Shinn. So their conversation does have consequence, even if not directly on themselves.

That said, the nature of their conflict is different than the one in SEED anyway, so the resolution is also different. That doesn't mean it's any less important to them.

[Silver_August]

They lost TM Revolution who wasn't technically Kira's fault but he still took the bulk of the blame anyways lol but yah.. its not the same.

At the same time for Athrun though, it was both Kira being "Killed" and Durandal officially unavailing that something seriously isn't right and he better get out before they axe him off in his sleep when he learns too much and doesn't go along with it.

Either way the point still stands.

[latenlazy]

That makes sense, considering that part of the show was about Cagalli. The consequence of their actions was on Cagalli, with Athrun delaying Kira.

I didn't say it didn't make sense. If there's supposed to be any takeaway from my criticism, it's that it was executed poorly. If the nature of the conflict between the two characters is supposed to be of a more complex nature (like where does Athrun's loyalties really lie), you'd have expected more complex dialogue than Athrun and Kira screaming WHYY at each other (and btw the dialogue Athrun and Kira had in SEED was far more complex than what they had in Destiny).

When Athrun and Kira are killing each other's friends and they're 16 year olds who don't understand how things could have turned out so badly it makes perfect sense to scream WHHYYY, do a bunch of regrettable things, then collect themselves and reflect on it. When you're talking about two twenty year olds who now find themselves on different sides on a political disagreement where both side understands have more agency, understand the other to some degree, and know how they got there, you'd expect the nature of the topic and maturity of the characters would lead to something more than each side screaming WHYYY to the other, or at least each side having more to say before they resort to screaming WHYY at the other.

There wasn't even really anything to reflect or explore at the end of that sub-conflict, because Athrun goes back to Team Kira a few episodes later and it's an "It's okay we're bros" moment. Nothing really gets broken and so nothing really needs fixing, and yet at least 10 episodes of the series are wasted on that "conflict". That's what people mean when they say the series really goes nowhere with its story.

To be fair, Athrun defected because of Durandal's actions, not because Shinn defeated Kira. Regardless, that is also a consequence of Kira destroying the Saviour, which in turn affected Shinn. So their conversation does have consequence, even if not directly on themselves.

That said, the nature of their conflict is different than the one in SEED anyway, so the resolution is also different. That doesn't mean it's any less important to them.

Uh, I don't see how Kira destorying Saviour had any direct effect on Shinn. And speaking of Saviour, that didn't even have any real threat of consequence to it (except for poor Saviour), because everyone, Athrun included, know that Kira's super power is to disable mobile suits without harming the pilot. And no, their conversation went nowhere. It was Fukuda taking a poorly written one layer exchange and shoving that in our face as conflict. At the end of the day the conversation Kira and Athrun had in the early 20s didn't lead to anything in the story. That is the definition of a dead end.

[monster]

I didn't say it didn't make sense. If there's supposed to be any takeaway from my criticism, it's that it was executed poorly. If the nature of the conflict between the two characters is supposed to be of a more complex nature (like where does Athrun's loyalties really lie), you'd have expected more complex dialogue than Athrun and Kira screaming WHYY at each other

It's not about Athrun's loyalty. They simply disagreed on whether Kira should interfere.

(and btw the dialogue Athrun and Kira had in SEED was far more complex than what they had in Destiny).

They were screaming why in SEED too. Why was Kira fighting against Coordinators? Why did Athrun join the war?

When Athrun and Kira are killing each other's friends and they're 16 year olds who don't understand how things could have turned out so badly it makes perfect sense to scream WHHYYY, do a bunch of regrettable things, then collect themselves and reflect on it. When you're talking about two twenty year olds who now find themselves on different sides on a political disagreement where both side understands have more agency, understand the other to some degree, and know how they got there, you'd expect the nature of the topic and maturity of the characters would lead to something more than each side screaming WHYYY to the other, or at least each side having more to say before they resort to screaming WHYY at the other.

They're 18 years old, actually. And they said what they had to say when they met via Mirialia.

There wasn't even really anything to reflect or explore at the end of that sub-conflict, because Athrun goes back to Team Kira a few episodes later and it's an "It's okay we're bros" moment. Nothing really gets broken and so nothing really needs fixing, and yet at least 10 episodes of the series are wasted on that "conflict". That's what people mean when they say the series really goes nowhere with its story.

About the equivalent of 1 episode was spent on the Athrun/Kira side of that conflict. The rest of that conflict had to do with Cagalli, and maybe Shinn.

Uh, I don't see how Kira destorying Saviour had any direct effect on Shinn. And speaking of Saviour, that didn't even have any real threat of consequence to it (except for poor Saviour), because everyone, Athrun included, know that Kira's super power is to disable mobile suits without harming the pilot.

Destroying the Saviour put Athrun out of business, which increased Shinn's role on the battlefield and how it affected him.

And no, their conversation went nowhere. It was Fukuda taking a poorly written one layer exchange and shoving that in our face as conflict. At the end of the day the conversation Kira and Athrun had in the early 20s didn't lead to anything in the story. That is the definition of a dead end.

Their conversation led to Kira taking a decisive action against Athrun, which, as I said above, affected Shinn's role. Also, the nature of this particular conflict isn't really about Kira and Athrun themselves. They said what they needed to say to each other and acted accordingly.

[DoubleZero]

Some info about the Destiny Plan, if anyone's curious:

Spoiler

『帰ってきちゃったSEED120%』では、デスティニープランは、各人の遺伝子特性によって社会的役割を決定する究極の管理社会実現を目的とする政策で、全人類規模で人材の適材適所が実現されるため、無能な人物が不当に高い地位につくことでおこる混乱や、自分の境遇・待遇への不満からおこる争いごとがなくなるとされ、その結果二度と戦争が起こらないようにしようという政策であり、デュランダルの考えた終わらない争いを終わらせるための政策であると説明された。しかし、このプランは人間の自由意志は認められず、デスティニープランを拒否すれば社会的に抹殺され生きていけなくなると説明されている。

『アニメディア』では、掲載されたインタビューにおいて特殊設定担当である森田繁によると、「デスティニープランとは何!?」との質問に対して、「デスティニープランとは、遺伝子を調査すれば職業適正でも何でもわかる、その適正を最優先させれば不満も生じない、そういう社会を作ろうという計画である。上から強制するのでは無くて、人々が自主的に賛同する形で実施するのが、デュランダルの真の狙いであり、彼はそうなるように世界を操ろうとしていた」との旨を答えている。しかし本編では、武力により力づくで反対分子を排除しようとして失敗、逆に反対勢力によって排除されてしまった。

2007年11月15日付で発行された『電撃データコレクション機動戦士ガンダムSEED DESTINY下巻』（メディアワークス）の「OFFICIAL REPORT」は、デスティニープランについて、「C.E.ならではの優生学とも換言できよう」と記した。さらに同書は、デスティニー・プランの内容自体に「プラント内から明確な反対論は聞かれなかった」とし、その理由を「遺伝子操作によって誕生したコーディネイターにとってデスティニー・プランは有利に働く」からだとしている。

監督の福田己津央は放映終了後のいくつかのインタビューにおいて、「あえてデスティニープランは間違っている内容であると、小中学生にもわかる形で描いた」「同じ遺伝子を持つクルーゼと違った答えを出したレイ、これはプランが間違いであったと表現したもの」と言っている。しかし「デュランダルという実行者を失ってもデスティニープランという政策自体は人々に知れ渡ってしまったので、また次の実行者が現れるかも知れず、消滅したわけではないからやっかいである」という趣旨の内容を発言している。

オフィシャルファイルマガジン『機動戦士ガンダムSEED DESTINY OFFICIALFILE キャラ04』に掲載されたミニコーナーではラクスがデスティニープランについて語る記述があり、この中でラクスは上記の「自由意思の封殺」以外にも「遺伝子レベルでの格差の誕生」および「現段階における遺伝子解析の不確実性」と言ったその他の問題点もいくつか指摘している。

[HellCat]

As a general comment, it annoys me that basically the whole conflict in Orb and Kira vs Athrun yet again was clearly because otherwise the returning characters would have got themselves in order and used the space and naval armadas they commanded to do something.

But no, we can't have that until the last stretch of the series so we get excuses to put that just out of their reach for most of the story.

[monster]

Some info about the Destiny Plan, if anyone's curious:

Spoiler

『帰ってきちゃったSEED120%』では、デスティニープランは、各人の遺伝子特性によって社会的役割を決定する究極の管理社会実現を目的とする政策で、全人類規模で人材の適材適所が実現されるため、無能な人物が不当に高い地位につくことでおこる混乱や、自分の境遇・待遇への不満からおこる争いごとがなくなるとされ、その結果二度と戦争が起こらないようにしようという政策であり、デュランダルの考えた終わらない争いを終わらせるための政策であると説明された。しかし、このプランは人間の自由意志は認められず、デスティニープランを拒否すれば社会的に抹殺され生きていけなくなると説明されている。

『アニメディア』では、掲載されたインタビューにおいて特殊設定担当である森田繁によると、「デスティニープランとは何!?」との質問に対して、「デスティニープランとは、遺伝子を調査すれば職業適正でも何でもわかる、その適正を最優先させれば不満も生じない、そういう社会を作ろうという計画である。上から強制するのでは無くて、人々が自主的に賛同する形で実施するのが、デュランダルの真の狙いであり、彼はそうなるように世界を操ろうとしていた」との旨を答えている。しかし本編では、武力により力づくで反対分子を排除しようとして失敗、逆に反対勢力によって排除されてしまった。

2007年11月15日付で発行された『電撃データコレクション機動戦士ガンダムSEED DESTINY下巻』（メディアワークス）の「OFFICIAL REPORT」は、デスティニープランについて、「C.E.ならではの優生学とも換言できよう」と記した。さらに同書は、デスティニー・プランの内容自体に「プラント内から明確な反対論は聞かれなかった」とし、その理由を「遺伝子操作によって誕生したコーディネイターにとってデスティニー・プランは有利に働く」からだとしている。

監督の福田己津央は放映終了後のいくつかのインタビューにおいて、「あえてデスティニープランは間違っている内容であると、小中学生にもわかる形で描いた」「同じ遺伝子を持つクルーゼと違った答えを出したレイ、これはプランが間違いであったと表現したもの」と言っている。しかし「デュランダルという実行者を失ってもデスティニープランという政策自体は人々に知れ渡ってしまったので、また次の実行者が現れるかも知れず、消滅したわけではないからやっかいである」という趣旨の内容を発言している。

オフィシャルファイルマガジン『機動戦士ガンダムSEED DESTINY OFFICIALFILE キャラ04』に掲載されたミニコーナーではラクスがデスティニープランについて語る記述があり、この中でラクスは上記の「自由意思の封殺」以外にも「遺伝子レベルでの格差の誕生」および「現段階における遺伝子解析の不確実性」と言ったその他の問題点もいくつか指摘している。

Is this supposed to be new information or is this from 10 years ago?

As a general comment, it annoys me that basically the whole conflict in Orb and Kira vs Athrun yet again was clearly because otherwise the returning characters would have got themselves in order and used the space and naval armadas they commanded to do something.

But no, we can't have that until the last stretch of the series so we get excuses to put that just out of their reach for most of the story.

Actually, without the conflict at Orb, Orb would just stay out of the war altogether.

[Heaven Piercing Man]

"But Cagalli is crying" replaced KIRAAAAAA ATHRUUUUUUN in Destiny, lel

[monster]

Apparently, there were some additional visual changes in the disc release: http://www.reddit.com/r/Gundam/comments ... t_changes/

[Blazer-X]

Great, now to wait for the comparison screenshots.

[Kuruni]

"But Cagalli is crying" replaced KIRAAAAAA ATHRUUUUUUN in Destiny, lel

You have to understand. During GSD run, it's also when Chronicle of Narnia movie arrived at theater. So if they recycle ATHRUUUUUUN, Japanese audiences will have mental image of Kira calling a lion .

[Quiddity]

So after what must be around 10 years since its original release, having never seen a single episode of it, I have finally decided to take the plunge and watch Seed Destiny. Just finished a rewatch of Seed for the first time in years and seems natural to jump right into this. I know next to nothing about the series, other than the "Jesus Yamato" thing and that the show is criticized big time. Halfway through watching the first episode on GundamInfo on Youtube, my computer crashes. Is there some force out there trying to stop me from viewing what might be quite the disaster?

In any case, an enjoyable first episode. I liked them starting off the show with what I'm sure is just one of many personal tragedies that came out of Kira's actions in the first series. Interesting that despite being the supposed main character Shinn was hardly there the rest of the episode.

[LightningCount]

So after what must be around 10 years since its original release, having never seen a single episode of it, I have finally decided to take the plunge and watch Seed Destiny. Just finished a rewatch of Seed for the first time in years and seems natural to jump right into this. I know next to nothing about the series, other than the "Jesus Yamato" thing and that the show is criticized big time. Halfway through watching the first episode on GundamInfo on Youtube, my computer crashes. Is there some force out there trying to stop me from viewing what might be quite the disaster?

In any case, an enjoyable first episode. I liked them starting off the show with what I'm sure is just one of many personal tragedies that came out of Kira's actions in the first series. Interesting that despite being the supposed main character Shinn was hardly there the rest of the episode.

I've been rewatching the original on DVD recently. First time I've rewatched it chronologically. I'm about halfway through. I enjoyed the series overall the first time I saw it, and have had mixed feelings about it ever since, especially with the constant bashing it has gotten. But rewatching it, despite its flaws, I have to say that there is still a lot of compelling material and ideas, and a number of interesting new characters. The pacing early on is honestly pretty amazing, though it's gotten a bit muddled as of late. I think some of the complaints haven't been fair if one stops to analyze all facets

Spoiler

(particularly regarding Cagalli)

, and some have been right on

Spoiler

(too many flashbacks, especially as the series has gone on)

. Anyway, it's best to go in with an open mind like you're doing. It has its ups and downs, but it's a fun watch if nothing else. I'm still trying to decide on my overall verdict as I rewatch it. I wonder how the latter episodes will affect my view. I will say, however, that I would have liked the SEED movie to wrap up CE.

[latenlazy]

So after what must be around 10 years since its original release, having never seen a single episode of it, I have finally decided to take the plunge and watch Seed Destiny. Just finished a rewatch of Seed for the first time in years and seems natural to jump right into this. I know next to nothing about the series, other than the "Jesus Yamato" thing and that the show is criticized big time. Halfway through watching the first episode on GundamInfo on Youtube, my computer crashes. Is there some force out there trying to stop me from viewing what might be quite the disaster?

In any case, an enjoyable first episode. I liked them starting off the show with what I'm sure is just one of many personal tragedies that came out of Kira's actions in the first series. Interesting that despite being the supposed main character Shinn was hardly there the rest of the episode.

I've been rewatching the original on DVD recently. First time I've rewatched it chronologically. I'm about halfway through. I enjoyed the series overall the first time I saw it, and have had mixed feelings about it ever since, especially with the constant bashing it has gotten. But rewatching it, despite its flaws, I have to say that there is still a lot of compelling material and ideas, and a number of interesting new characters. The pacing early on is honestly pretty amazing, though it's gotten a bit muddled as of late. I think some of the complaints haven't been fair if one stops to analyze all facets

Spoiler

(particularly regarding Cagalli)

, and some have been right on

Spoiler

(too many flashbacks, especially as the series has gone on)

. Anyway, it's best to go in with an open mind like you're doing. It has its ups and downs, but it's a fun watch if nothing else. I'm still trying to decide on my overall verdict as I rewatch it. I wonder how the latter episodes will affect my view. I will say, however, that I would have liked the SEED movie to wrap up CE.

Wait till you get to the mid 20s. Things start looking a bit weak there. All hell breaks loose only once you hit the mid 30s though. That's where most of the criticism and bashing emerged from.

[HellCat]

In general, I've never understood people who say the first leg of Destiny isn't that bad. I know personal opinions differ but I think from day one the show was already rocky with various problems. I don't really like anyone on the Minerva, two years seems too short for both sides to be ready for an all out war again, the Extendeds are just kind of there, the mecha design seems uninspired and curious (I'm still convinced Impulse's complicated launch must be a hinderance), Neo and Rey are very poorly masked in terms of what they are and as a whole.....ehhh.

[Quiddity]

I'm up to the point where they are dropping Junius Seven on the Earth and things have been good so far. Liking it better than Seed to this point. I agree on the Impulse launch sequence though, and have since the first episode. In that first episode when it was taking all that time to combine I was wondering why the 3 stolen Gundams weren't blasting it down. Shinn continues to be hardly much of a presence, if anything Athrun has had the most exposure so far.

In terms of his role in the story, got no issues with Neo Roanoke to this point, although that he is even alive is what I'd consider the second biggest Seed flaw (the first being the overboard use of flashbacks). Kira, Andy and Mu were all clearly in positions in the first show where they should be dead.

[latenlazy]

In general, I've never understood people who say the first leg of Destiny isn't that bad. I know personal opinions differ but I think from day one the show was already rocky with various problems. I don't really like anyone on the Minerva, two years seems too short for both sides to be ready for an all out war again, the Extendeds are just kind of there, the mecha design seems uninspired and curious (I'm still convinced Impulse's complicated launch must be a hinderance), Neo and Rey are very poorly masked in terms of what they are and as a whole.....ehhh.

The tricky part about judging the first leg of any series is that so much of a show's quality at that stage is about setup and potential. It's hard to pick out which parts of the series are truly flawed and which parts are merely waiting for development when you're 15-20 episodes in. I would say that about 15-20 episodes in Destiny still had the potential to be good. While you could point to a lot of contrivances through those episodes, the series was setting up some very interesting character dynamics, potential conflicts, and points of tension. That gave the series a lot of potential to develop the themes, ideas, and characters that it had set up. What made the rest of the show such a subsequent failure was that all of that was abandoned for cheap, easy, convenient, one dimensional, and often fan servicey writing.

[Erisie]

I would say that about 15-20 episodes in Destiny still had the potential to be good. While you could point to a lot of contrivances through those episodes, the series was setting up some very interesting character dynamics, potential conflicts, and points of tension. That gave the series a lot of potential to develop the themes, ideas, and characters that it had set up. What made the rest of the show such a subsequent failure was that all of that was abandoned for cheap, easy, convenient, one dimensional, and often fan servicey writing.

I disagree, for the simple reason that Kira was put back into the spotlight in the most possible contrieved way, with a fully repaired Freedom (an MS more powerful than anything in ZAFT's arsenal, thanks to its illegal nuclear powerplant) that was stashed below Lacus' mansion in Orb. The problem with this is that a) the Freedom was ransacked by the Providence and b) part of the peace treaty that ended the war included a provision about prohibiting the use of NJC technology in weapons.
If memory serves right, we've never seen before or after a repaired MS in a Gundam sequel that is still capable of dominating the battlefield like the Freedom could. the Zeta in ZZ was on its way to obsolecence, AGE-1 is constantly called obsolete in its series despite the upgrades, Exia Repair lasted about two seconds against the A-LAWS.

From the point of view of storytelling, it was difficult for the new cast to compete against Kira's portrayal since that point, considering that he had little conflict as a character (except for that thing with Athrun) and there was barely any intersection between him and Shinn in those episodes. If Morosawa and/or the execs at Sunrise/Sotsu/MBS wanted Kira so bad in the story, they could've been turned him into, say, an engineer for Morgenröte, or a Murasame test pilot. And give some agency to Cagalli now that we're on it.

The "cheap, easy, convenient, one dimensional, and often fan servicey writing" you speak of, Lazy, was clearly there on episode 13. Not later. There was little to salvage from the show from there on.

[latenlazy]

I would say that about 15-20 episodes in Destiny still had the potential to be good. While you could point to a lot of contrivances through those episodes, the series was setting up some very interesting character dynamics, potential conflicts, and points of tension. That gave the series a lot of potential to develop the themes, ideas, and characters that it had set up. What made the rest of the show such a subsequent failure was that all of that was abandoned for cheap, easy, convenient, one dimensional, and often fan servicey writing.

I disagree, for the simple reason that Kira was put back into the spotlight in the most possible contrieved way, with a fully repaired Freedom (an MS more powerful than anything in ZAFT's arsenal, thanks to its illegal nuclear powerplant) that was stashed below Lacus' mansion in Orb. The problem with this is that a) the Freedom was ransacked by the Providence and b) part of the peace treaty that ended the war included a provision about prohibiting the use of NJC technology in weapons.
If memory serves right, we've never seen before or after a repaired MS in a Gundam sequel that is still capable of dominating the battlefield like the Freedom could. the Zeta in ZZ was on its way to obsolecence, AGE-1 is constantly called obsolete in its series despite the upgrades, Exia Repair lasted about two seconds against the A-LAWS.

From the point of view of storytelling, it was difficult for the new cast to compete against Kira's portrayal since that point, considering that he had little conflict as a character (except for that thing with Athrun) and there was barely any intersection between him and Shinn in those episodes. If Morosawa and/or the execs at Sunrise/Sotsu/MBS wanted Kira so bad in the story, they could've been turned him into, say, an engineer for Morgenröte, or a Murasame test pilot. And give some agency to Cagalli now that we're on it.

The "cheap, easy, convenient, one dimensional, and often fan servicey writing" you speak of, Lazy, was clearly there on episode 13. Not later. There was little to salvage from the show from there on.

And I would say that even with the inclusion of Kira and all the potential problems that brought along, that could have been turned into a positive from a storytelling point of view (if you introduce problems, you have room to write resolutions, for good or bad). When you hit episode 13 you didn't know what they were going to do with Kira at that point. It was only later on by episode 20 where the Archangel only showed up to be holier than thou that you began to see the slide (and we got confirmation that whatever truly interesting thing they could have done with the Kira wrinkle, they weren't going to). They could have played everything from episode 13 onward differently than they did to do something really compelling (like if Shinn and Kira met earlier, or if the Archangel were wrapped into the conflicts the Minerva was encountering much earlier, or if the situations the Archangel encountered challenged the Archangel and Kira more). Of course they didn't.

[monster]

Kira was put back into the spotlight in the most possible contrieved way, with a fully repaired Freedom (an MS more powerful than anything in ZAFT's arsenal, thanks to its illegal nuclear powerplant) that was stashed below Lacus' mansion in Orb. The problem with this is that a) the Freedom was ransacked by the Providence and b) part of the peace treaty that ended the war included a provision about prohibiting the use of NJC technology in weapons.
If memory serves right, we've never seen before or after a repaired MS in a Gundam sequel that is still capable of dominating the battlefield like the Freedom could. the Zeta in ZZ was on its way to obsolecence, AGE-1 is constantly called obsolete in its series despite the upgrades, Exia Repair lasted about two seconds against the A-LAWS.

Just some things to point out:

1. It's not Lacus's mansion, it's Cagalli's.
2. The Freedom can be repaired as it wasn't destroyed like the Justice.
3. The treaty prohibits the use of NJC in the military. The Freedom wasn't used by the military.
4. The newer generation of mobile suits were intentionally toned down in terms of technology by the prohibition of NJC. The Freedom was also suited for battling multiple targets and it has a pretty decent pilot.