Red Comet's Real Plan?

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Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Tangerine » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:22 am

What is Red Comet's real plan? I used the word Red Comet and not Char since I want to remind us that this is the young Casval Rem Deikun that we talked about and not the old bitter war ace Char Aznable that wanted to drop big lump of rock to exterminate life on Earth.

So, the young ace pilots with fake ID and plots against the ruling family. What things he had in mind? We know the motive and we know how he backstabbing his way to reach his vengeance against the family that ruined his life. But we still don't know his real, original plan, the plan that he wanted to take if Amuro hasn't interfere. The introduction of Gundam and its consequences must've made him to alter his plan if not drastically speed it up, or change it all entirely. But let's putting all those things aside. What if all those things never happened and the war business progressing smoothly for the Red Comet to make his plan work out. Is there any indication that he aimed a position be it in military or politics before he could work out his coup against the Zabi family? is overthrowing this despot Zabi family is in his agenda aside from bloody vendetta? does his agenda include leading the new government and succeeding his dad's role in Side 3? or any indication that he wanted to do anything other than hiding his real self and piloting red MS against the EF?

Regarding the EF and Principality war, is he even supporting the war? If his coup actually worked out will he stop the war or still in support of the war? I know this is likely an uncharted water and bordering on the realms of fans imagination. But I still wanted to know if any publication may suggest he may do this or that if Amuro hadn't interfere.

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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Kratos » Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:46 pm

I always kind of got the sense that Char was just being opportunistic in his OYW "crusade" against the Zabis. Clearly, he wanted revenge of some sort, and must have figured that being a military officer was the best way to get close to the family (which makes sense; since Zeon is basically a military dictatorship, military advancement would likely equate to political success as well), but beyond that he just seemed to be biding his time until he could do something. Garma and Kycilia, the only two whose deaths he had anything to do with, were both him seizing an entirely coincidental opportunity, and notice how he made no moves against any of the others.

Since he doesn't exactly seize the reigns of his father's legacy (or get involved with politics at all) even after the Zabis all died, I think this is a classic example of "revenge for its own end". He just wanted to enact justice for his dad's death, with no greater plan in place.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Dark Duel » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:54 pm

He just wanted to enact justice for his dad's death, with no greater plan in place.
He wanted REVENGE for his dad's death, with no greater plan in place. Justice really had nothing to do with it. Revenge =/= Justice. At least, not IMO.

I really think that beyond wanting Revenge against the Zabis, Char didn't give a flying f*** one way or another as far as the One-Year War in and of itself is concerned.
I mean, after the war ended, essentially he disappeared. He didn't go back to the colonies and try to do something constructive in terms of the political stage.
I know we're talking specifically about Char/Casval during and immediately after the OYW, but look at Z: Even taking account his "stating the totally obvious" grandiose political speech in Dakar, his involvement with and commitment to the AEUG is half-assed at best.

And I think part of that is just that Char is selfish and petty. He doesn't care about Spacenoids in general or about the Federation, not really. His entire actions during the One-Year War were driven by a selfish desire for revenge, against the Zabis for killing his father, and later against Amuro because of what happened with Lalah.

And we see the same thing again and again. During the Gryps War, he does basically zilch for two thirds of the series, and then torpedoes the AEUG's attempts, however misguided, to get Axis on their side out of some unexplained petty issue he has with Haman.
And then again in CCA, only even worse; For all his crap about the Earth and all that fancy rhetoric he spouted off and on, 90% of what he did was out of some petty desire to prove to himself that he was better than Amuro. Which, by the way, he is not.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Kratos » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:42 pm

Right - I agree, vengeance and justice are different. I definitely meant the former, though I'm sure that he felt it was justice.

It's rather interesting that the two or so people that it WOULD arguably be justice against (Degwin and Gihren) aren't even touched by Char.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Dark Duel » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:54 pm

True, although that's only because in-fighting among the family is what did them in, with each one being killed by Gihren and Kycilia, respectively.
Actually, now I think on it, Char himself is responsible for the deaths of only a few of the Zabi family.

- Dozle was killed by Amuro
- Degwin was killed by Gihren
- Gihren was killed by Kycilia

The only ones that can to any degree be ascribed to Char personally are Garma and Kycilia, and he only personally killed the latter.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Tangerine » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:40 am

Well, he did hiding for 6 years before suddenly reappearing in Zeta. But he did coming out from hiding in style. From paid Principality pilot into some kind of quasi high ranking leader complete with financial, political and military backings. But enough with Zeta related stuff.

Returning back to the Red Comet persona, I wonder if the aftermath from OYW was so bad for him that he simply hiding to save his skin. As Zeon ace pilot who tried to stop the Gundam many times things could get messy. Things like the war crime tribunal if there's any in UC, could drag him with charges like how he destroyed the supposedly neutral colony when he met the Gundam, not to mention his fake ID and questionable allegiance.

If things go smoothly, like if he somehow able to stop Amuro and get the chance to assassinate the Zabis. I could imagine the Red Comet unmasked himself, revealing his identity while urging important people from Side 3 to join himself and stop the war. But Gihren's itchy finger and ultimately Amuro's doing prevent him from doing all of them.

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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Kratos » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:47 pm

I don't know why we need to separate OYW Char (your "Red Comet") and the others. Char is Char - despite the name shifts, his masked self and Quattro and the others aren't really personae, or some act he puts on. That's him.

I say this because his actions in Zeta are entirely relevant to this conversation. Even when he reappears in that series, it's as another ace pilot, preferring to operate in the background as a soldier (and this is well after the OYW); you mention his leadership role, but it takes him like 2/3rds of the series to come out to the public as Casval, and even in CCA the idea of leadership seems to make him vaguely uncomfortable (and he's not particularly skilled at it either). Even some of the expanded works pick up on this - Char's Deleted Affair is a fairly well-known manga that has him struggle with the idea of leading the remaining Zeon forces as the Deikun heir. You don't need a manga, though, to pick up on the fact that he just doesn't seem to know what to do with himself now that he no longer has his crusade. Hell, he never even TRIES to leverage his heritage for internal support, even secretly. All this says that his political aspirations and goals are much less than you're assuming, to the point where they're virtually nonexistent until other people basically drag him into the fray.

In this light, I actually think the immediate result of him killing all the Zabis would be similar to how things play out in-franchise: without Zeon leadership, the war would end and Char (having nothing to drive him anymore) would disappear until he figured out what to do with himself.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Tangerine » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:08 am

But the Char in Zeta is a byproduct from what happenend in OYW. I could argue that if things gone differently for the Red Comet the outcome or the produced Char maybe different. The constant failure to stop Amuro and the failure to take revenge as he wanted along with the Principality losing the war arguably has the ability to change a still teenage person's self. I think it's easy to understand the other possibility that if he ended up on the winning side, at least politically he may did something entirely different than hiding from plain sight for 6 years. That what I wanted to know if any about his original plan because just lurking around in the Zeon's army without foreseeable plan else than revenge sounds like too short-minded to me.

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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Kratos » Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:22 am

Short-minded or not, that's what all the evidence points towards. No "original plan" - other than revenge - is even hinted at, he literally does nothing - even during the 8-month stalemate - to advance himself politically even in sympathetic circles (which implies a lack of thought towards eventually leading Zeon), and no adaptation of the story told in the original Mobile Suit Gundam* involves any sort of larger plan. Sure, you can add more and more qualifiers until the situation is different enough that it would fundamentally change him as a character, but there's not really a discussion there because there's no precedence in the actual works for his behaviour in that situation. You'd basically be talking about an original character carrying an existing one's name.

But yeah, it's entirely possible (and even supported by his characterization in various sequels) that Char was just a pretty short-sighted guy. Maybe you find that dissatisfying; I think it makes him more human.

---

*I should note that Tomino's novels do have Char take over the Principality in the end, after teaming up with White Base. However, those novels feature vastly different characters, so it kind of exists in its own little corner.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Tangerine » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:04 am

Whoa, simply fascinating. I did know about the novel, the one that Red Comet bested Amuro and joining up with the White Base but I didn't know that he also taking over the Principality. and this is coming out from such authoritative person like Tomino himself. Making this version a grey-official but non canon possibility.
Char was just a pretty short-sighted guy. Maybe you find that dissatisfying; I think it makes him more human.
Well, it bothers me because 6 years latter the same guy make happen what in essence almost his own rag-tag anti Titan faction and lead the group to triumph at Gryps war. That and few years latter he's taking over the mantle and leading Neo Zeon almost to destroy the Earth. Short-sighted guy can't accomplish this, but that's my sole opinion.

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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:11 am

Yeah, Char didn't come off as someone with any real long-term grand plans (of his own anyway), but more like someone who changes based on what changes around him (not always for the better, of course). Initially, it was about revenge on the Zabi family, but as he fought Amuro, and especially after Lalah's death at Amuro's hands, he pretty much completely forgot about revenge on the Zabi family and it shifted to beating, then getting revenge on Amuro. (Sayla even had to remind him in the last episode about his revenge, leading to him going after Kycillia.)
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Kratos » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:28 am

Tangerine wrote:Whoa, simply fascinating. I did know about the novel, the one that Red Comet bested Amuro and joining up with the White Base but I didn't know that he also taking over the Principality. and this is coming out from such authoritative person like Tomino himself. Making this version a grey-official but non canon possibility.
He actually doesn't best Amuro, at least not personally - Amuro is killed by a random grunt in a Rick-Dom. I wouldn't take it being written by Tomino to mean much - he has said that the outcome (particularly Amuro's death) would have been very different if he knew there would be sequels, so not even he seems to hold it in particularly high regard.
Tangerine wrote:Well, it bothers me because 6 years latter the same guy make happen what in essence almost his own rag-tag anti Titan faction and lead the group to triumph at Gryps war. That and few years latter he's taking over the mantle and leading Neo Zeon almost to destroy the Earth. Short-sighted guy can't accomplish this, but that's my sole opinion.
I thought Zeta and later were irrelevant to this discussion. :lol: To recap, though:
Kratos wrote:...his actions in Zeta are entirely relevant to this conversation. Even when he reappears in that series, it's as another ace pilot, preferring to operate in the background as a soldier (and this is well after the OYW); you mention his leadership role, but it takes him like 2/3rds of the series to come out to the public as Casval, and even in CCA the idea of leadership seems to make him vaguely uncomfortable (and he's not particularly skilled at it either).
Dark Duel wrote:I mean, after the war ended, essentially he disappeared. He didn't go back to the colonies and try to do something constructive in terms of the political stage.
I know we're talking specifically about Char/Casval during and immediately after the OYW, but look at Z: Even taking account his "stating the totally obvious" grandiose political speech in Dakar, his involvement with and commitment to the AEUG is half-assed at best.

[...]

And we see the same thing again and again. During the Gryps War, he does basically zilch for two thirds of the series, and then torpedoes the AEUG's attempts, however misguided, to get Axis on their side out of some unexplained petty issue he has with Haman.
And then again in CCA, only even worse; For all his crap about the Earth and all that fancy rhetoric he spouted off and on, 90% of what he did was out of some petty desire to prove to himself that he was better than Amuro.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Tangerine » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:52 am

Well that sums up pretty nice. We know possibilities from certain what-if scenarios, and we know what he actually did prior to Zeta and up to CCA era. I wonder what's his Myers-Briggs personality type is. :lol:

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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:26 am

Kratos wrote:he literally does nothing - even during the 8-month stalemate - to advance himself politically even in sympathetic circles
Well, he is pretty buddy-buddy with at least two of the Zabis. Early in the show he calls Dozle regarding getting replacements for his Zakus that were destroyed by the Gundam, and the two seem to have a fairly friendly personal relationship, rather than simply being a soldier and his commanding officer. The fact that he talks to Dozle (one of the highest ranking Zeon officials) personally rather than just dealing with some logistics minion also suggests that he's fairly high up in the Zeon hierarchy. Ditto his relationship with Garma, which seems to be much more equal than his relation to Dozle -- with Dozle, they're friendly, but Dozle is clearly the superior, while with Garma, they're more like friends than having clear superior/subordinate relationship.

Of course, he betrays Garma, and Dozle abandons him over it. He's eventually recruited by Kycilia instead, but it didn't seem to expect that -- another suggestion that he's rather short-sighted. He saw the opportunity to kill Garma (who was, let's be honest, the least important of the Zabi clan) and he took it, not taking into account the damage that it would do to his credit with his main patron Dozle even if he arranged it so that all Dozle knew was that Char failed to protect Garma, rather than actively getting him killed.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Kratos » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:18 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote: Well, he is pretty buddy-buddy with at least two of the Zabis. Early in the show he calls Dozle regarding getting replacements for his Zakus that were destroyed by the Gundam, and the two seem to have a fairly friendly personal relationship, rather than simply being a soldier and his commanding officer. The fact that he talks to Dozle (one of the highest ranking Zeon officials) personally rather than just dealing with some logistics minion also suggests that he's fairly high up in the Zeon hierarchy. Ditto his relationship with Garma, which seems to be much more equal than his relation to Dozle -- with Dozle, they're friendly, but Dozle is clearly the superior, while with Garma, they're more like friends than having clear superior/subordinate relationship.
I think any advancement that he did on that front was more to get closer for purposes of revenge, rather than establish himself for eventual political takeover, but that only really becomes clear when looking at his later actions.

Interesting thing about Dozle, though: the later episodes show that he has a bit more of a familial relationship with soldiers under his command than your traditional General. I think it's likely that Char was just treated like any high-ranking officer under his command, rather than given relatively special treatment.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Tangerine » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:57 pm

Actually, who is this fake Char Aznable identity really is? I mean he must've writing bogus background to support his fake ID, but I don't remember reading anything about that bit. Seeing that Char gets buddy-buddy with Dozle although it can be related to the latter's type of personality than anything else, but he also gets older brother treatment from Garma which seems like out of place if he's a mere stranger and subordinate. The treatment should be understandably normal if he's close or socially in favor to the Zabi family. Which begs the question, does Char established his background as the Zeon Duchy supporter or anything worth mentioning that made him in favor to the ruling family? His ACE pilot status surely rewarding, but I don't think that means easy access to Zabi's inner circle.

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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Kratos » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:13 am

Garma and Char are established as being old friends who went through military training together (they're around the same age).

There's no official word on Char's formation of his identity, but the manga THE ORIGIN has a whole flashback (6 volumes long! Or 3 hardcovers, if you like) about Char's childhood, academy, and early war days. Basically:
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Show
During his time living with the Mass family in Texas Colony, Casval - then going by Edward Mass - met a boy his age named Char Aznable. The two look basically identical, save for their eye colour, because of course they do. Char gets all fired up about joining the Zeon military and Casval accompanies him, but eventually tricks Char into switching flights with him (I don't remember exactly how - I think he secretly steals Char's ticket or something, and then offers his own as replacement). Char is killed in an assassination attempt on Casval, who goes on to the Zeon Academy under his deceased friend's name, where he meets and "befriends" Garma. He uses tinted glasses to hide his eye colour before adopting the mask.
It's a little contrived, though it's worth mentioning that, with an anime adaptation potentially coming soon, this may become the official back story.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Tangerine » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:29 am

What anime adaptation? Care to elaborate since this is the appropriate sub forum anyway.

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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Kratos » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:32 am

The (supposed) upcoming anime version of Gundam: THE ORIGIN, the manga that I mentioned above. It's basically a remake of the original series with those flashback elements inserted in. The anime got "announced", meaning it's been said to be in development, but that's literally all we know.
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Re: Red Comet's Real Plan?

Post by Tangerine » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:51 am

remake and flashback tend to horrify me after what Sunrise had done to Zeta-trilogy. let the 1980's animation rest in peace. I don't even mind if they re-cast the whole voice actor department, I think a proper reboot is necessary. They have good story anyway, instead of trying to wed Wing and UC into some bound to fail Gundam Show, why not just a simple higher animation big budget reboot.

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