The Official Gundam Build Fighters Anime Thread Mark II

[Zeonista]

I'm pretty sure I've seen it mentioned somewhere that he was swedish, actually. Don't quote me on that, but Nils Nillsson would indeed be a Swedish name.

Lots of people with Swedish names living along the shores of the Great Lakes.

Is there a betting pool on which episode Shuichi Ikeda and Toru Furya make VA cameos?

[HellCat]

According to a friend who keeps tabs on such things, BF's ratings have been equal to or worse than AGE's. Given AGE's were incredibly low and we know BF was a revised attempt at what they'd hoped to do with that sub-brand, I'm a little worried here. Apparently BF kit sales have been good and in turn other Gunpla (many stories of HGUC Gyan selling out). If we hit a situation where model kit sales eclipse need for an actual story I really think it'll only lead to bad things. Gundam's lifetime has been a constant battle of storytellers vs toy sellers. With the execs having pushed through several commercial driven projects in the past, I worry for the franchise if things should shift to point to the idea of a good, strong, innovative story not being relevant to making money from it.

[Strike Zero]

Uh. Given that Banrise's most profitable attempts at Gundam over the past decade were a modern rehash of the original TV series and a poorly-executed sequel to said rehash, I would think it'd be pretty obvious that, no, innovative stories are not necessary towards making a Gundam toyline a success. As I believe Chris has said before, the fact that we often get stories that stand out above average as a result of their dedicated promotion is a bonus, not a given.

[HellCat]

Speaking as someone who sides with the story tellers over the toy sellers, I'm not too ready to accept that on various levels. There's certainly plenty of money for old rope in the Gundam franchise but I'd like to think that if Gundam continues then hopefully it'll be at least partly led by people with cool and interesting ideas. If things head in the direction where the commercial push over rules story (and BF could very nearly count, we're just lucky they got a good team for it) I'd probably personally move on. In this case in particular where allegedly merchandise sales are over shadowing episode ratings, I think there's a potential reason to worry about what message that sends to those calling the shots about the future. Gundam is ultimately a product and no successful product is static, it'll change for as long as it's on the market. However, it's a product that began life as a story and I believe it's story that is to credit many of the older fans it has currently. I'd hate to see that lost.

[Chris]

Speaking as someone who sides with the story tellers over the toy sellers, I'm not too ready to accept that on various levels. There's certainly plenty of money for old rope in the Gundam franchise but I'd like to think that if Gundam continues then hopefully it'll be at least partly led by people with cool and interesting ideas.

I don't see that happening since Gundam is practically an industry unto itself. It's too big and unwieldy to stray too far from a formula.

However, it's a product that began life as a story and I believe it's story that is to credit many of the older fans it has currently. I'd hate to see that lost.

No, it began life as a venue to sell really ugly toys. That commercial aspect has never changed, despite many people decrying the current situation as though it's a recent commercialization and not the very core of the franchise.

[Xenosynth]

Well, I mean, you can't entirely blame those that buy models. Hell, I didn't enjoy AGE but I have a few models because... well, the models are good quality and the mecha design isn't half bad >.>

I think the issue with ratings is... we need a small break in terms of Gundam animated releases. After BF and Unicorn end, I think maybe we should just... have a break. 3-4 years of no series. I mean, model sales are always consistently good I think, and I doubt not having a show on will make model sales plummet. In that time they can give people a break from watching it, while still making money to pay for the next series.

I guess as someone who is a huge collector of models and such, I feel that people are always really negative towards models among Gundam fans, at least it seems that way in passing (Oh, new MS desgin? MUST BE FOR A MODEL DAMN YOU BANRISE seems to be a rather common occurence, I even recall people saying that 00 S2 sucked because they were 'focusing on models' ((Not factoring in that many mobile suits, even popular ones, don't have models >_>)))) I really doubt the model sales vs ratings are going to cause a story breakage.

[HellCat]

Speaking as someone who sides with the story tellers over the toy sellers, I'm not too ready to accept that on various levels. There's certainly plenty of money for old rope in the Gundam franchise but I'd like to think that if Gundam continues then hopefully it'll be at least partly led by people with cool and interesting ideas.

I don't see that happening since Gundam is practically an industry unto itself. It's too big and unwieldy to stray too far from a formula.

However, it's a product that began life as a story and I believe it's story that is to credit many of the older fans it has currently. I'd hate to see that lost.

No, it began life as a venue to sell really ugly toys. That commercial aspect has never changed, despite many people decrying the current situation as though it's a recent commercialization and not the very core of the franchise.

Then why is it documented that it was written as a story and the concessions were made to the toy companies to get it funded and produced? I'm not saying it has never had a relationship with toy companies, I even said it's been a constant battle. But there's a difference between being produced solely to sell toys and having to concede to sponsor demands to get a show made. It's certainly continued because the toy companies know it sells well but even beyond Tomino there are tales of Gundam directors locking horns with Bandai over the issue of wanting to tell a decent and engaging story rather than just push a set amount of plastic models.

[Xenosynth]

Speaking as someone who sides with the story tellers over the toy sellers, I'm not too ready to accept that on various levels. There's certainly plenty of money for old rope in the Gundam franchise but I'd like to think that if Gundam continues then hopefully it'll be at least partly led by people with cool and interesting ideas.

I don't see that happening since Gundam is practically an industry unto itself. It's too big and unwieldy to stray too far from a formula.

However, it's a product that began life as a story and I believe it's story that is to credit many of the older fans it has currently. I'd hate to see that lost.

No, it began life as a venue to sell really ugly toys. That commercial aspect has never changed, despite many people decrying the current situation as though it's a recent commercialization and not the very core of the franchise.

Then why is it documented that it was written as a story and the concessions were made to the toy companies to get it funded and produced? I'm not saying it has never had a relationship with toy companies, I even said it's been a constant battle. But there's a difference between being produced solely to sell toys and having to concede to sponsor demands to get a show made. It's certainly continued because the toy companies know it sells well but even beyond Tomino there are tales of Gundam directors locking horns with Bandai over the issue of wanting to tell a decent and engaging story rather than just push a set amount of plastic models.

Uhm... What 'Toy Companies'? Bandai owns Gundam, and they are the ones who produce the models as well, as far as I know, the only real companies that do Gundam merchandise are all owned by Bandai, who owns Gundam. I mean, maybe it was different, but in the modern day, as far as I know, almost all Gundam figures and models are produced by Bandai itself.

I mean, I'm sure there's been some concessions, but I don't really think it's quite that bad. I've not seen anyone produce anything more than "It's well documented' or 'in an interview' but I've not really seen too many interviews where the creative staff has butt heads with Bandai. I've seen them say they'd had to deal with fans a lot, but not really too many things that talk about the models.

[HellCat]

Uhm... What 'Toy Companies'? Bandai owns Gundam, and they are the ones who produce the models as well, as far as I know, the only real companies that do Gundam merchandise are all owned by Bandai, who owns Gundam.

I mean, I'm sure there's been some concessions, but I don't really think it's quite that bad. I've not seen anyone produce anything more than "It's well documented' or 'in an interview' but I've not really seen too many interviews where the creative staff has butt heads with Bandai. I've seen them say they'd had to deal with fans a lot, but not really too many things that talk about the models.

I'm speaking mainly of the original series where we know stuff like Tomino's preferred design for the Gundam got switched to the more toyetic, samurai one and stuff like the G-Armour was added for further toy sales.
Beyond that, the two most pertinent examples are Imagawa (got told not to do a war drama but a robot tournament, in addition to being told to please pick designs which would easily translate to models which he went against) and Mizushima (outright asked how many models he was expected to sell so he could focus his staff on actual story and implied at at least one press event that pushing for new ideas in Gundam was met with much internal resistance)

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Plus the ratings might be low because they're streaming it for free on Gundam.info and YT. Why watch it on TV when you can catch the stream with just a couple of Gunpla commercials that can be skipped over?

[HellCat]

Plus the ratings might be low because they're streaming it for free on Gundam.info and YT. Why watch it on TV when you can catch the stream with just a couple of Gunpla commercials that can be skipped over?

It's a valid point and one I'd considered before making the initial post I must say. Though do Japan count web viewings of shows in the overall ratings like some countries do?

[Xenosynth]

Plus the ratings might be low because they're streaming it for free on Gundam.info and YT. Why watch it on TV when you can catch the stream with just a couple of Gunpla commercials that can be skipped over?

It's a valid point and one I'd considered before making the initial post I must say. Though do Japan count web viewings of shows in the overall ratings like some countries do?

I'd have to imagine they factor it in somewhat, since a lot of things say to watch it online, such as the advertisements on the Breaker twitter and whatnot. I usually see the advertisements all be for GundamInfo/Youtube. It'd be a bit silly if they ignored it completely, but then again, Japan has been very weird about new media like youtube so... I dunno.

Also, in terms of success.. I am becoming more and more dubious about the ratings vs Age, or even sales. Age tends to be completely shoved aside in terms of games, shows, etc. in terms of appearances. Build Fighters on the other hand seems to be showing up rather fast. Even in Gundam Maxi Boost, which I doubt would just be a promotional thing since they didn't do the same thing with Age in Gundam Extreme Vs Full Boost. All in all, it almost seems like Bandai actively dislikes Age, which I thought came from the low ratings and such, whereas they seem to very much enjoy Build Fighters, even this early on.

[Chris]

Then why is it documented that it was written as a story and the concessions were made to the toy companies to get it funded and produced? I'm not saying it has never had a relationship with toy companies, I even said it's been a constant battle. But there's a difference between being produced solely to sell toys and having to concede to sponsor demands to get a show made. It's certainly continued because the toy companies know it sells well but even beyond Tomino there are tales of Gundam directors locking horns with Bandai over the issue of wanting to tell a decent and engaging story rather than just push a set amount of plastic models.

Do you think that Sunrise (and at the time Clover) had any intention of telling a serious war story for the sake of it? That was Tomino's intention, but they just wanted to sell toys to children. I think you're also overestimating the power of directors. Anime TV directors are hired guns who work under the guidelines they're given. As Tomino has stated many times in the past, he's just a freelance director. He's no Lucas or Spielberg or even a Miyazaki who wields lots of power. You can come in wanting to do the most original un-Gundam Gundam story ever, but if Sunrise wants teenage male pilots and RX-78 and Zaku lookalikes, there's only so much you can resist if you intend to keep your job.

You mentioned Imagawa, and yes it's known that he intended to do a war drama but was told to do a robot fighting tournament. He was the one who came up with the Devil Gundam story and made the show what it was, but that's a happy accident. A lot of other directors probably would've just done a standard bracket fighting tournament and not put any effort beyond that. That's why we're lucky to get good stories when we do, which isn't always a constant thing.

[Zeonista]

According to a friend who keeps tabs on such things, BF's ratings have been equal to or worse than AGE's. Given AGE's were incredibly low and we know BF was a revised attempt at what they'd hoped to do with that sub-brand, I'm a little worried here. Apparently BF kit sales have been good and in turn other Gunpla (many stories of HGUC Gyan selling out). If we hit a situation where model kit sales eclipse need for an actual story I really think it'll only lead to bad things. Gundam's lifetime has been a constant battle of storytellers vs toy sellers. With the execs having pushed through several commercial driven projects in the past, I worry for the franchise if things should shift to point to the idea of a good, strong, innovative story not being relevant to making money from it.

Don't sweat the ratings too much. GBF is largely a Gundam anime for the fans, especially dedicated fans with a row of gunpla in their room. There's no real ground-breaking story or attempt to go outside the box. If you want that, Valvrave is available. Yeah there is serious gunpla selling, but that is a real non-story after 33 years of gunpla ads during anime broadcasts. And besides, they are selling to a willing audience, ne? Best to sit back & live the Gundam fan's dream. (The SFW dream, anyway. )

[HellCat]

Then why is it documented that it was written as a story and the concessions were made to the toy companies to get it funded and produced? I'm not saying it has never had a relationship with toy companies, I even said it's been a constant battle. But there's a difference between being produced solely to sell toys and having to concede to sponsor demands to get a show made. It's certainly continued because the toy companies know it sells well but even beyond Tomino there are tales of Gundam directors locking horns with Bandai over the issue of wanting to tell a decent and engaging story rather than just push a set amount of plastic models.

Do you think that Sunrise (and at the time Clover) had any intention of telling a serious war story for the sake of it? That was Tomino's intention, but they just wanted to sell toys to children. I think you're also overestimating the power of directors. Anime TV directors are hired guns who work under the guidelines they're given. As Tomino has stated many times in the past, he's just a freelance director. He's no Lucas or Spielberg or even a Miyazaki who wields lots of power. You can come in wanting to do the most original un-Gundam Gundam story ever, but if Sunrise wants teenage male pilots and RX-78 and Zaku lookalikes, there's only so much you can resist if you intend to keep your job.

You mentioned Imagawa, and yes it's known that he intended to do a war drama but was told to do a robot fighting tournament. He was the one who came up with the Devil Gundam story and made the show what it was, but that's a happy accident. A lot of other directors probably would've just done a standard bracket fighting tournament and not put any effort beyond that. That's why we're lucky to get good stories when we do, which isn't always a constant thing.

I never said Sunrise fully supported Tomino's intent as a story teller, I said it was created as a story and to get it produced things had to be conceded to attract the toy company sponsorship. To my mind there's a big difference between something like MSG and Beyblade. The former is someone creating a story and allowing it to be altered by sponsors to actually get it funded and out there, the latter is someone creating a toy and then hiring a studio to write a show around it.

I don't think I'm over estimating the importance of directors at all. There's some truth to what you say but I never claimed a single strong willed director could completely snatch control. My point was that, in my opinion, the best Gundam shows have always come from directors who haven't simply rolled over and accepted they've been hired to make a 50 episode toy commercial. The ones that have pushed as much as they can, made waves behind the scenes and put a solid and challenging story first. When you consider that's long been the stance of the original creator himself, I take it as a key spirit of the franchise. Even outside of Gundam there are varied and infamous cases of creative staff butting heads with the sponsors over the likes of using those extra minutes to explore a character vs promote a shiny new toy.

I don't doubt there are some directors who will happily play along for a nice big pay packet (Fukuda basically admitted as such). But to say that an actual surprising, innovative story should be accepted as just a fluke or accident? That's nonsense and a huge discredit to those talents working in the industry who actually want to create such a Gundam story. Gundam's place historically might be more to do with opening the door to a new genre but I believe people want to work on it because they have genuine ideas they'd like to contribute.

[Kuruni]

You know, I may agree with you if you aren't one who claimed SeeD Movie should be release next year. As that's against everything you post here (draging story on just to sell toy, and director who will bent story just to sell toy (and according to internet, his personal grudge)).

I don't think Chris say good story is merely a fluke, it's more of bonus (big bonus, something like premium PVP reward in MMO game). I agree with you "ideally" that every piece of works should have its own idea, but looking at sad fate of Cyan (creator of Myst series, the game developers that think of themselves more as artists than game company), I can tolerate when they push some product out for quick money (especially since it's fun, an innovative work that nobody enjoy is just a fail product).

[M-308 Gunner]

I only have one comment on this particular talking point: the clover toys weren't ugly, just misunderstood

[Silver_August]

Well I finally saw the episode... not a lot say but the battle definitely was worth all the hype I heard about going in...and maaaaaaaan I REALLY really want the OST to this series...

And my sis was not amused by Rinko at the preview...teehee, I mean I tried to defend her saying well least Rinko has character as upon to a lot of other female characters but eeeeeh... fanservice is fanservice..lol

[Kuruni]

I only have one comment on this particular talking point: the clover toys weren't ugly, just misunderstood

For whoever want to see it, watch first 13 seconds of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuDlnXpt6u8
Then again, I have weak spot on old, cheesy toy ad.

[Strike Zero]

For whoever want to see it, watch first 13 seconds of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuDlnXpt6u8
Then again, I have weak spot on old, cheesy toy ad.

Now you got me thinking; if the original Gundam DX set complete with the halberd and more-colorful-than-usual G-Fighter shows up, I will crap my pants.