Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

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Strike Zero
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Strike Zero » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:10 pm

Amion wrote:I'm hoping people will lose some of their cynicism and realize this is a crazy robot anime and not the end of the world.
You're hoping for too much.
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Kuruni » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:46 pm

Plus, hardcore mecha fans I known are apathetic to Valvrave (some even since the first season).

So there isn't too many who can view it as "crazy robot anime".
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by balofo » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:19 am

We'll never get answers since the novels are pretty much canceled and the mangas are ending soon

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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by wielder » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:27 am

balofo wrote:We'll never get answers since the novels are pretty much canceled and the mangas are ending soon
Not that I could attempt to read any of those, but I had in fact heard that the manga versions were close to ending. I didn't know this also applies to the novels though. What about that Undertaker thing? Still, even without that, they might sneak in some information for the final manga chapters or even the BD contents. Just probably not a whole lot.

EDIT: VVVVV Fair enough. Can't say I'm that negative about it, but hey...no problem man.
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by balofo » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:28 am

All I know this series was a waste of good mech designs

I just want to forget it

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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Strike Zero » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:34 am

Well, if anybody happens to have any memory-sucking Valvraves lying around, I'm sure they'd be happy to help you out with that. :mrgreen:
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Omega » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:24 am

Sounds like you guys were wanting Dorssia to curbstomp the heroes...
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I admit, I'm surprised at Cain's brainfart (If Pino is in the RAVE Engine of Unit 1, why didn't he think about ripping the damn thing out of Hito when he exposed it?) But even if the ending was kinda crappy, the final clash between Haruto/L-Elf and Cain was certainly an epic one.

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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:11 am

Unit 2's multiple limb things gimick was pretty unique.
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by yazi88 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:38 am

The combat in the show overall was pretty good, but I think Majestic Prince slightly trumps it in that category, just a bit though.

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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Strike Zero » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:50 am

There is basically nothing that Majestic Prince doesn't trump Valvrave in.

Unless we're comparing negative points, in which case VVV beats MJP pretty soundly. :mrgreen:
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Shinji103 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:03 am

I'd say I'm leaning more towards "bad" on this ending. While the action was nice, it does leave a lot of unexplained things as already pointed out in previous posts. Even worse, there's absolutely no real resolution on the love triangle. Haruto said he still loves SHouko back a few episodes ago, but after that there was hardly anything on it at all, much less anything developmental. At least there was a conclusion brought for most everything else.
On the other hand, I actually like how Shouko became Unit 1's pilot; it's hard to explain, it just feels right, and I'd say it's probably my favorite part of the episode.

Haruto definitely got the worst ending for a male main character. (barring bad guy MCs like Light Yagami who got what they deserved anyway) Not in the sense that it was badly written, mind you. But he was rejected by the girl he loved, got absolutely no chance to resolve anything with her or even his other potential love interest, was stripped of all his memories, and died. The one, single ray of light in his death was that he was so far gone that he couldn't remember any of the crap that had happened to him over the series, so a bit of an "ignorance is bliss" passing for him. But he definitely got it worst out of just about anybody I've ever seen.
I used to think Shu in GC got it bad, what with losing Inori and being partly disabled, but he survived and had loving, caring friends, presumably for the rest of his life, rather than losing all his memories and having one single, last moment where some guy says he's a friend before the lights went out forever.
Gundam X? What the heck bad happened in Gundam X??? Garoad was never scarred, badly hurt, or otherwise traumatized, he got his girl, he kept all his friends who all survived, and had a happy, bright, smiling ending.
As for Kamile, he made a strong recovery and got his girl too.
Haruto easily got it the worst out of just about every male MC there ever was.

So all-in-all, I definitely didn't like Valvrave's ending, largely because of Haruto's terrible passing. I'm old-fashioned. I like seeing the good guys win, justice prevails, and the MC lives with his girl happily ever after. (heck I can even take getting an open end on that last part as long as the guy lives) I hate it when the bad guy wins in any Law & Order episode, though I don't automatically hate dark series-es. But this ending sucked so bad for Haruto; he was a great guy who got crapped on for most of the series but still pulled through to get the job done. He deserved so much more. It also adds to the hurt how, like in Code Geass, everybody else continued on so happily while Haruto got the ditch. Compound that with how the episode itself just couldn't cover everything, and bleh.
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:25 am

Strike Zero wrote:There is basically nothing that Majestic Prince doesn't trump Valvrave in.
Actually Valvrave's ending was definitely better than Majestic Prince's (assuming the latter won't get another season).

@Shinji103: I compare it to Gundam X not due to what happens to the characters, but because both had rushed finales that still managed to fit in a decent final battle plus an epilogue to show what happened to most of the characters.

In regards to Haruto and Shoko, we clearly see him realise that she's just putting up a front and the look he sees on her face from the cockpit likely clued him in on how sorry she was.

There are plenty of works that kill off their protagonist for shock value or whatever, and I'm not particularly happy when that happens. However in Haruto's case I'm not unhappy or anything. I feel a bit bad for him, sure, but mostly I want to salute him and congratulate him on a job well done. Bad stuff happened to him, but he overcame all of it. He knew the risks but fought on despite that for the sake of a better world. He might have died, but what he accomplished will live on and he'll always be remembered as a hero. All the sacrifices he made were not in vain and I'm sure he'd be happy his dream has become a reality.
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Shinji103 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:37 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:@Shinji103: I compare it to Gundam X not due to what happens to the characters, but because both had rushed finales that still managed to fit in a decent final battle plus an epilogue to show what happened to most of the characters.
Gundam X's ending was still far superior even without Haruto's terrible ending, simply because GX didn't have the list of unanswered questions Valvrave does, or any at all for that matter. (at least no unintentionally unanswered questions)
In regards to Haruto and Shoko, we clearly see him realise that she's just putting up a front and the look he sees on her face from the cockpit likely clued him in on how sorry she was.
And what part of this is definitive, with the two making their feelings for each other clear? Haruto's death being so deeply dark and depressing needed more than just a confirmed "I'm sorry" face to brighten it.
There's no resolution to the love triangle, and Haruto goes out without settling things with his feelings for Shouko, or with any memories of her or his love for her, for that matter. No locket with her picture, a photo of them together, or even a photo of them as kids, anything to give him one last reminder on his way out; absolutely nothing.
Considering he knew exactly what was happening to himself, he should have gotten a photo of Shouko or at least take a new one of her and put it up in his cockpit to remind him of her as he died, even if just a thought of "This girl.....who is she?......" before the lights went out. Even that little bit would have made his ending brighter, if just slightly.
There are plenty of works that kill off their protagonist for shock value or whatever, and I'm not particularly happy when that happens. However in Haruto's case I'm not unhappy or anything. I feel a bit bad for him, sure, but mostly I want to salute him and congratulate him on a job well done. Bad stuff happened to him, but he overcame all of it. He knew the risks but fought on despite that for the sake of a better world. He might have died, but what he accomplished will live on and he'll always be remembered as a hero. All the sacrifices he made were not in vain and I'm sure he'd be happy his dream has become a reality.
I know there are lots of MC deah endings, but Haruto's was one of, if not the, darkest and emptiest of them. (certainly the darkest in my immediate memory)
What you're saying about the sake of a better world and stuff is nice and all, but he had only settled for that because he'd given up on winning Shouko. He'd given up on happiness and resolved himself to the bare minimum for his sacrifices (at this point there was no way they'd forget about what he did for them); not exactly a happy mindset. I'm sure we can all agree that he'd give up on being remembered for his sacrifices if he could trade in that recognition for a true moment with Shouko where he declared his feelings and was accepted by her before he left for his end; Amuro got exactly that before he launched for his final battle in CCA.
Not to mention since both of his previous attempts to confess his feelings to her were interrupted, it would have been nice and fitting for Haruto to make a third, successful attempt.

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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by yazi88 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:46 am

Well, Haruto did say that he was resolved to end his life with the Valvrave so no one else could become cursed like him. Guess he made good on that promise. So his death is not meaningless in that regard, he's been saying it quite a bit throughout the series.

Considering that this show was written by Code Geass writer its not surprising but rather predictable given how many elements were pretty much copied from Code Geass, mostly in the 2nd season of this show.

Still, him dying right after being crapped on and losing his memories is still a really bad way to go. At least he was with L-elf, even though he didn't know who the guy was.

I know this might be in bad taste, but at least he didn't die a virgin...

Its also consistent that all 3 male Valvrave pilots died.

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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Strike Zero » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:05 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Actually Valvrave's ending was definitely better than Majestic Prince's (assuming the latter won't get another season).
Oh, really? In what way, exactly? Because Valvrave added a two-minute epilogue that summed up several centuries worth of later events while MJP didn't?

If anything, I'd actually throw Valvrave a bone and say that it and MJP's endings were similar, to a point. Both resolved the immediate conflict at hand while leaving things in the grand scheme of things somewhat open.

In the end though, I still have to give more points to MJP, because even though MJP may have left a few secondary aspects of the plot up in the air, I honestly prefer that over Valvrave's approach of clumsily and haphazardly glossing over them in order to reach a conclusion, thus leaving the viewers with nagging questions they know for a fact are never going to be satisfactorily answered.

There's a kind of beauty that comes of the ending as well: MJP doesn't need a sequel, but if one ever does come, there's plenty of room for it, whereas Valvrave is in a similar boat but basically dead and done at this point.
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Bryant Molirse » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:47 am

See I think that is my biggest problem with this ending. If they had just Kamile'd Haruto, made him lose all his memories, everything, but still survived, that would have made the ending touching.

Instead, it's like they erased all the male pilots, then made Shoko, who had no real redemption from the way she treated Haruto in the end, seem like some grand leader, when she treats total stranger aliens better than the guy who saved her, repeatedly. And they also kept a bunch of inconsequential characters alive, who also treated Haruto, and the others like dirt instead of getting their just deserts as well.

Oh well.

Adios Valvrave, you had potential, and cool mech designs, but alas, your writers, and director failed you in the eyes of many.

P.S. - Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells *face palm*
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:37 pm

@Shinji103: Unfortunately the situation didn't allow for such luxeries. That's the tragedy of it. There was no opportunity for them to make up and there's really nothing they could have done about it.

Haruto's words to Cain spell out what the point of it all was. While the Magius hid in the shadows for fear of being hurt, Haruto and his pals were out there fighting the good fight despite all the suffering they went through. And in the end, is this the face of someone who regretted anything?

@Strike Zero: MJP ended with the enemy empire still intact, sure to come back and cause more trouble. Kinda hard to have a bigger dangling thread than that.
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Strike Zero » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:55 pm

Certainly, the ongoing war between the Earth and the Wulgaru is a significant plot thread, but not one that needed to be resolved in order to bring the present story to a satisfactory conclusion. Not every war story has to end with the complete defeat of the opposing faction in order to be satisfying.

Rather than 'Humans vs Wulgaru,' MJP's most important plot thread had always been the growth of Team Rabbits and their struggle over their identities, followed by the immediate threat of the Wulgaru forces currently in the solar system, and by the time the show was over it had wrapped up both of those rather nicely.
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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by Shinji103 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:45 pm

yazi88 wrote:Well, Haruto did say that he was resolved to end his life with the Valvrave so no one else could become cursed like him. Guess he made good on that promise. So his death is not meaningless in that regard, he's been saying it quite a bit throughout the series.
Nobody said his death was meaningless, but "meaningful" and "good" are not at all the same thing, especially in this case.
Destiny_Gundam wrote:@Shinji103: Unfortunately the situation didn't allow for such luxeries. That's the tragedy of it. There was no opportunity for them to make up and there's really nothing they could have done about it.

Haruto's words to Cain spell out what the point of it all was. While the Magius hid in the shadows for fear of being hurt, Haruto and his pals were out there fighting the good fight despite all the suffering they went through. And in the end, is this the face of someone who regretted anything?
How hard is it to take one photo? Or borrow a photo from Shoko? We're not exactly talking about a time-consuming process here.

But alas, that would have only been a small light in his death and wouldn't have really changed the fact that his death was utter darkness, so it's rather moot. But it just goes to show how the badly he was doomed both in- and out-of-series to not even get such a small reimbursement for his sacrifice after all the crap that was dropped on him, from the situation he was in or the writers and staff who put together his end.

The only reason Haruto didn't regret anything was because he didn't remember anything to regret. Like I said, they made Haruto's end bliss in ignorance and it was the one and only thing that didn't make his death utterly disastrous, but it certainly doesn't change that his life was basically one big crapper throughout the series. If he actually remembered his life in the end, and every person should have the right to die whole (yet another thing he was robbed of with no reimbursement for his selfless actions), and if he had he'd certainly have one or two things to regret not having a chance to do. And Lelouch got a better ending than Haruto too; Zero Requiem was Lelouch's plan, including his own death. Haruto had no choice but to deal with the terrible hand he was dealt. Even after the Black Knights turned on him, Lelouch still had the luxury of choosing how he went out. He made his plan, he pulled it off, he stood victorious, and he went out with a smile in the arms of his beloved sister.
Seriously, the staff couldn't afford Haruto just one or two small actual luxuries for sacrificing himself to save the world? (reconciling with Shouko and getting even just a hug would have been a serious luxury compared to what he was dished out) Like I said, I don't think Haruto's end was badly written, but the staff was out to screw him over for a long time. I honestly don't see what the attraction is in throwing such a kind guy in the gutter. Neverming that this was such a horrible way for such a nice guy to go out, how does this make me like Valvrave more?

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Re: Valvrave the Liberator thread Mk II

Post by wielder » Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:42 pm

@Bryant Molirse:

I don't think the ending is implying that Shoko became their new leader at all.

But to be honest, I think the hate towards her has gotten more than a little out of proportion. She did something very stupid, but already cried over it and realized she was foolish. Even Haruto died already knowing that she had cried upon learning the truth of his "giving up humanity" to pilot the Valvrave, and how she wanted to apologize to him despite her public appearance.

What the epilogue shows, in my interpretation, is that she was willing to follow his footsteps.

I agree that keeping Haruto around in a crippled state might have worked better though, despite not actually caring too much for the guy in general. I definitely wasn't expecting him to survive intact.

But alas, the show made different choices. Some of them were bad and some of them are just stuff I don't particularly agree with, so that's that.
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