The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

[Silver_August]

Yeah I was talking about Dark Duel's project because...yeah even I'm lost with what to do with this situation the plot is in.

But also its true... ZAFT saw Shinn walking off with Stella's body and presumably gave the guy the time/space to let him put the body to rest.....eeeeeven though her body is effectively evidence they could use to further understand the sick stuff EAs up too with the Extendeds project.

With that said...yeah! They KNOW she was the pilot, they know that Shinn was the one who... a day ago? Broke in, KOd a bunch of grunts and doctors, flew off with her and handed her off to the enemy... and hey look, she was piloting the machine that killed thousands of people and left an entire city in ruins... but nope! Gotta shoot down that Freedom, the only one with the skill to take it down- then again... they edited the footage to make it look like ZAFT did it so they could probably care less and still see the super friends as something that needs to be stopped.

Still, no one on the bridge says a thing, Shinn being in denial that any of this is his fault is just a fault of the show for not going somewhere with that idea but...alas, Talia and Shinn are noticing a lot of bull going on and aren't thrilled by it.

and Arbiter nailed it, for 29 episodes, Rey was a bottle of hair dye away from being Generic Grunt #67, but now he's talking, rebelling, kissing a lot of ass and just...off and honestly its coming off almost creepy in a weird way because if the show explored his psyche, you'd swear he's fully aware of whats going on but is completely along for the ride... maybe because the whole clone thing has made him kinda say "F humanity" or...sometihng, I dunno.

And don't worry Kira, Lacus is making you a new penis subisitut-I mean Mobile suit, that's all blinged out! Full of guns, missiles, lasers, bits, rays, beams, shields - AND is compatible with ultimate manhood substitute, METEOR! As if you needed mode add ons... let alone make something THAT destructive require a mobile suit instead of just making it a mobile armor.

OH and also if I were in Athrun's position I woulda punched Shinn too..if only because of that massive smug grin on his face, lol.

[latenlazy]

Yeah I was talking about Dark Duel's project because...yeah even I'm lost with what to do with this situation the plot is in.

I think we all know deep down inside that the problems with the plot don't start here. This is the point of no return, not the point where things started to go wrong.

[Gundam420]

[/quote]
Because he basically boasted that he killed Athrun's best friend?[quote]

He doesn't know that.

[monster]

and Arbiter nailed it, for 29 episodes, Rey was a bottle of hair dye away from being Generic Grunt #67, but now he's talking, rebelling, kissing a lot of ass and just...off and honestly its coming off almost creepy in a weird way because if the show explored his psyche, you'd swear he's fully aware of whats going on but is completely along for the ride... maybe because the whole clone thing has made him kinda say "F humanity" or...sometihng, I dunno.

Rey simply had nothing to say for the most part. He has more to say in this episode because the situation has escalated to a punch being pulled. Other than that, it's just his usual self.

[Silver_August]

I'm still deducting points from their score card because this guy had main character status with his position in the openings - Unlike say...Luna's sister who has had a small role, small lines and yet i STILL got more of a character out of her in those little moments then I ever did with Rey who just... stood there, had a good shot, and then when the action started, he got in a white zaku and jumped on the roof to shoot things.

I understand if they wanted to make him some kind of late game player who comes out of left field due to recent events buttttt....no, you had 29 episodes to make us get to know him an care about him, but here he is doing stuff lie he's become a deep character who's suddenly began to act.

[Soma Taozi]

I'm still deducting points from their score card because this guy had main character status with his position in the openings - Unlike say...Luna's sister who has had a small role, small lines and yet i STILL got more of a character out of her in those little moments then I ever did with Rey who just... stood there, had a good shot, and then when the action started, he got in a white zaku and jumped on the roof to shoot things.

I understand if they wanted to make him some kind of late game player who comes out of left field due to recent events buttttt....no, you had 29 episodes to make us get to know him an care about him, but here he is doing stuff lie he's become a deep character who's suddenly began to act.

I disagree, Rey may have been in the opening, but that doesn't mean he is all that important at those moments in the show. He is a character that will have some significance at some point...that is all the opening is saying. After all, his entire past has been a mystery with the occasional hint or reference towards it. Honestly I think how the writers handled Rey's introduction was well done. You see that he is very devoted to Durrandel, has some connection with Neo, has strange flashbacks to the Freedom, but he keeps to himself and is often quiet...

Rey is a very subtle character and the writer's handled him subtly. And writers goal was NOT to make us care about him in the first half. That would be juggling way too many balls at once, especially when they had to focus on Shinn, Athrun's defection, the war, Kira's decisions, Orb switching sides, Junius Seven Falling, ect, ect, ect (especially when they wanted to make the whole clone angle a "surprise"). You are making it sound like Rey never spoke or did anything before then...but that isn't true. He has been doing, acting, and saying some mysterious stuff for the entire series now (remember his battle with Neo? Or how he seemed to react on Earth to when Phantom Pain was preparing to attack the Minerva again?). But he is always in the background, watching and waiting...which makes us as viewers not really focus on him due to the other (bigger) stuff that is going on.

One of my goals in watching this remaster is to pay closer attention to Rey and I have to admit I am impressed with how he has been handled...something I feel a lot of people overlook.

With the exception of Rey being stopped by Kira's words in the final battle (which was kinda hinted that Rey felt that way earlier in the series but SHOULD have been delved into deeper) and how I wish Neo/Mu had a rematch again him... Rey has been very consistent at this point. He is not some random character.

Just thought I should point this out...

[Amion]

I'm still deducting points from their score card because this guy had main character status with his position in the openings - Unlike say...Luna's sister who has had a small role, small lines and yet i STILL got more of a character out of her in those little moments then I ever did with Rey who just... stood there, had a good shot, and then when the action started, he got in a white zaku and jumped on the roof to shoot things.

I understand if they wanted to make him some kind of late game player who comes out of left field due to recent events buttttt....no, you had 29 episodes to make us get to know him an care about him, but here he is doing stuff lie he's become a deep character who's suddenly began to act.

I disagree, Rey may have been in the opening, but that doesn't mean he is all that important at those moments in the show. He is a character that will have some significance at some point...that is all the opening is saying. After all, his entire past has been a mystery with the occasional hint or reference towards it. Honestly I think how the writers handled Rey's introduction was well done. You see that he is very devoted to Durrandel, has some connection with Neo, has strange flashbacks to the Freedom, but he keeps to himself and is often quiet...

Rey is a very subtle character and the writer's handled him subtly. And writers goal was NOT to make us care about him in the first half. That would be juggling way too many balls at once, especially when they had to focus on Shinn, Athrun's defection, the war, Kira's decisions, Orb switching sides, Junius Seven Falling, ect, ect, ect (especially when they wanted to make the whole clone angle a "surprise"). You are making it sound like Rey never spoke or did anything before then...but that isn't true. He has been doing, acting, and saying some mysterious stuff for the entire series now (remember his battle with Neo? Or how he seemed to react on Earth to when Phantom Pain was preparing to attack the Minerva again?). But he is always in the background, watching and waiting...which makes us as viewers not really focus on him due to the other (bigger) stuff that is going on.

One of my goals in watching this remaster is to pay closer attention to Rey and I have to admit I am impressed with how he has been handled...something I feel a lot of people overlook.

With the exception of Rey being stopped by Kira's words in the final battle (which was kinda hinted that Rey felt that way earlier in the series but SHOULD have been delved into deeper) and how I wish Neo/Mu had a rematch again him... Rey has been very consistent at this point. He is not some random character.

Just thought I should point this out...

Reminds me of Shadow's fanfic and how Ray was much more influential. I have to question which is better. Honestly I think some of the problem stems from us wanting to see more of Ray once he does come into center focus, only for the show to end. Then complaints arise about how he stood in the shadows and said nothing in that said first half.

Of course, I think that kind of portrayal of Ray seems more like a Clone of Rau and how he manipulated everyone around him. Ray doesn't do this directly or even indirectly in a lot of cases until the end, where he's far more up front with what he expects of Shinn, and even then it's his devotion to Gil, not a maniacal desire to see everything dead. So yeah...basically what Soma said.

I have to admit I still would have preferred we get a more active Ray though. Rau is one of my favorite characters, so it makes me want to see a Ray who behaves like him. But I think that's the point right there that Kira ultimately makes: Rau and Ray are two different people. A lot of people figured out who Ray was (or at least I did) and expected a second Rau and didn't get it. In the end, Kira kinda sets me straight along with Ray about how having the same genetics doesn't make you who you are if you don't want to, and thus applies similarly in real life how we view the character type and what we expect of him given what we know about his previous counterpart.

[Silver_August]

I'm sure that was their intent, because yes, Rey did have a lot of subtle moments int he first 10 episodes, but Episodes 11-26 he's...basically non-existent. Yeah I know the series was indeed juggling a lot but to me its still no excuse, after watching 00 which had so many perspectives to cover in half the time, as well as introduce us to new characters and a new universe, even the characters who didn't speak a lot, got a ton of development from those limited scenes, at the very least we had a perspective of them.

The Extendeds are another good example of limited screen time and little development, in the end everything we got about them amounted to they're simply the survivors of a horrible project and their individual personalities were irrelevant because they had reset buttons and ugly mobile suits. We can say we got to know them but...we didn't really know anything about them before they were killed off.

With Rey I just feel that what we've gotten out of him up until now isn't enough, because his opening up and speaking up is sudden, suspiciously out of character, but when your character up until now was quiet, and the big turning point was him having a massive hyperventilation moment...ehhh... still comes off as thin to me.

If I were to rework this series, what I would've done at the very least, is have Rey just speak more, just have him interact with his crew a bit, hell just show us his room. Show him in a simulator practicing or just any thing to show he existed between episode 11-25, then have him and Shinn go to the place where he has the freak out, and this is the point where he changed, opening up and in a way rebelling, or like...have it be a plot twist that he was in on everything with Durandal the whole time and was nudging Shinn towards the direction Durandal wanted of having this revenge driven lapdog in the seat of your most advanced mobile suit to-date.

Even watching this series week to week its come across to me as character whiplash - I like the idea of him changing, don't get me wrong, I just wish they kept him on stage more during the 2nd act before they pulled the switch during the 3rd, leading into the 4th.

[monster]

I'm sure that was their intent, because yes, Rey did have a lot of subtle moments int he first 10 episodes, but Episodes 11-26 he's...basically non-existent. Yeah I know the series was indeed juggling a lot but to me its still no excuse, after watching 00 which had so many perspectives to cover in half the time, as well as introduce us to new characters and a new universe, even the characters who didn't speak a lot, got a ton of development from those limited scenes, at the very least we had a perspective of them.

Rey was a soldier who made his opinions known when he feels it's necessary. That's his perspective.

And actually, his lack of presence beyond the bare minimum speaks to the fact that Rey doesn't actually hold any hope for himself, even as he allowed himself the rare occasions of enjoying the moment, like when playing the piano. He was there just to follow orders and helped Durandal achieved his dream and then to die.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Ultimately I regard Rey as wasted potential, like a lot of stuff in Destiny. Consider--

1. Rey is also a clone of Al da Flaga but Rau is shown being much older than him. We know that Rau killed Al da Flaga when he was still young, so how did Rey (and don't forget Prayer Reverie) come to be?
2. Is he actually a clone of Rau? If so, how, where, when, why?
3. If he's a clone of Rau, why couldn't they fix the telomere thing?
4. Speaking of Telomeres, why couldn't Ulen Hibiki, creator of the Ultimate Coordinator, not solve that little problem?
5. If Rey ISN'T a clone of Rau, how can he (and also Prayer) be clones of Al da Flaga? Why?
6. While we're on the subject, why was Al so sour on the idea of a natural-born heir?

[monster]

1. Rey is also a clone of Al da Flaga but Rau is shown being much older than him. We know that Rau killed Al da Flaga when he was still young, so how did Rey (and don't forget Prayer Reverie) come to be?

I don't know much about Prayer's origin, but the existence of other clones could be possible as long as you have the DNA samples (and whatever other materials) to start the cloning process. Or maybe multiple clones were made from the beginning, but only one (Rau) were allowed to mature while others are kept in some storage facility.

2. Is he actually a clone of Rau? If so, how, where, when, why?
3. If he's a clone of Rau, why couldn't they fix the telomere thing?

Being a clone of Rau would be a possibility, and the aging problem seems to be a more difficult problem to solve.

4. Speaking of Telomeres, why couldn't Ulen Hibiki, creator of the Ultimate Coordinator, not solve that little problem?

Probably because he was no longer working on it.

5. If Rey ISN'T a clone of Rau, how can he (and also Prayer) be clones of Al da Flaga? Why?

It depends on what they need to start the cloning process or whether they can store the clones and keep them from aging.

6. While we're on the subject, why was Al so sour on the idea of a natural-born heir?

Because Al had this idea that he was already perfect and that Mu became less perfect by inhering his mother's flawed DNA.

[Silver_August]

All of that's true...I dunno, I guess I just would have liked to see more done with him since well.. Lunamaria basically hogged the side-character buffet, lol.

Though Arbiter begins up another thing - the entire clone subject was an uncooked, under looked missed opportunity. THAT is probably the stem of my desires to see more done with Rey now that I think about it, since even with the valid points about his character I still can't shake off his feeling that there should've been more.

My thoughts on Destiny have changed slightly because of the Rewatch but one things I still fully agree with from the Gundamn! Review of the series is that Neo should've been a clone and have the Archangel crew deal with the situation of whether or not he's Mu or his own person even though his genetic makeup says he's identical.

This would tie in nicely to Rey who is essentially a clone of Rau or Al or...whoever, he doesn't have the apparent health problems but he certainly bares subtle mental health issues, more so where we are now when he ends up with the Not-Providence, and even starting to fall into those shoes but both Neo and Rey begging the question if a clone is the same person and this path is their DESTINY or are they free to choose their own future - Hmmmm... this sounds suspiciously like the overall question the series tries to ask in its endgame.

Because the rewatch more so is making me see that was the theme it wanted to present, Shinn especially being a victim of "all of this is your destiny" because of his blind misguided hatred and frustration guiding him, as appose to opening his eyes and looking ahead for himself. While Rey is a clone who by design is going to repeat the actions of his predecessor if the conditions are right, begging the question if he really had a choice.

If they developed that more. maybe I wouldn't be so harsh on Rey so it is effectively a part of his backstory and its a part that doesn't even need his direct involvement, it just needs the subject being explored - because I will say, if nothing else, I like how Rey is subtly more mentally fragile. Whether or not Rau was unstable is debatable, but given the analysis I just gave, I'd be willing to say they were both unstable, but in different ways.

[monster]

I was also hoping that Neo was a clone, or even one of those advance clones from one of the latter Astray series (Librarian or something).

[Amion]

All of that's true...I dunno, I guess I just would have liked to see more done with him since well.. Lunamaria basically hogged the side-character buffet, lol.

Though Arbiter begins up another thing - the entire clone subject was an uncooked, under looked missed opportunity. THAT is probably the stem of my desires to see more done with Rey now that I think about it, since even with the valid points about his character I still can't shake off his feeling that there should've been more.

My thoughts on Destiny have changed slightly because of the Rewatch but one things I still fully agree with from the Gundamn! Review of the series is that Neo should've been a clone and have the Archangel crew deal with the situation of whether or not he's Mu or his own person even though his genetic makeup says he's identical.

This would tie in nicely to Rey who is essentially a clone of Rau or Al or...whoever, he doesn't have the apparent health problems but he certainly bares subtle mental health issues, more so where we are now when he ends up with the Not-Providence, and even starting to fall into those shoes but both Neo and Rey begging the question if a clone is the same person and this path is their DESTINY or are they free to choose their own future - Hmmmm... this sounds suspiciously like the overall question the series tries to ask in its endgame.

Because the rewatch more so is making me see that was the theme it wanted to present, Shinn especially being a victim of "all of this is your destiny" because of his blind misguided hatred and frustration guiding him, as appose to opening his eyes and looking ahead for himself. While Rey is a clone who by design is going to repeat the actions of his predecessor if the conditions are right, begging the question if he really had a choice.

If they developed that more. maybe I wouldn't be so harsh on Rey so it is effectively a part of his backstory and its a part that doesn't even need his direct involvement, it just needs the subject being explored - because I will say, if nothing else, I like how Rey is subtly more mentally fragile. Whether or not Rau was unstable is debatable, but given the analysis I just gave, I'd be willing to say they were both unstable, but in different ways.

Rau just figured out what kind of anime he was in and tried to do something about it. At the least his instability stemmed from the fact that he was repulsed by the people in the world behaving as they did.

I have to agree that while Ray may have been handled "well" he could have been better which is what most people want. Is it the missed opportunities that is the stem of our troubles with Destiny. Probably is with mine. I guess I can go stick Ray up as the poster child for that. "Move over Shinn, we're replacing you with Ray..."

[Soma Taozi]

Ultimately I regard Rey as wasted potential, like a lot of stuff in Destiny. Consider--

1. Rey is also a clone of Al da Flaga but Rau is shown being much older than him. We know that Rau killed Al da Flaga when he was still young, so how did Rey (and don't forget Prayer Reverie) come to be?
2. Is he actually a clone of Rau? If so, how, where, when, why?
3. If he's a clone of Rau, why couldn't they fix the telomere thing?
4. Speaking of Telomeres, why couldn't Ulen Hibiki, creator of the Ultimate Coordinator, not solve that little problem?
5. If Rey ISN'T a clone of Rau, how can he (and also Prayer) be clones of Al da Flaga? Why?
6. While we're on the subject, why was Al so sour on the idea of a natural-born heir?

Umm I believe the series answers a lot...if not all of these.

1: You are right that Rau did kill Al Da Flaga when he was young, but only when he was about 10 or 12 by the look of it. Thus doesn't it make sense that Rey was created some 10 years AFTER Rau? Remember they had a lot of failures...so it is possible they would keep on trying to create a perfect a clone.

So Rey is a clone of Al Da Flaga and more or less, "brothers" to Rau. He says this near the end of the series.

You are right that they should have went into more of Rey's back-story, but I never really questioned where he came from. Prayer is a different story...it has never been confirmed if he is a clone of Al, Rau, or Mu...just speculation. From my knowledge of Astray they never really went into it, but I am not 100%.

2: Rey was created by Ulen at the same place as Rau. He was born/created on CE 56... we don't really know what happened to him before Rau discovered him in that jail cell...but I can't imagine it was very pleasant.

Why? As Rey says later in the series, he was "made to realize a dream, in the form of Kira Yamato." Basically Ulen used the profits he made from clones as funding for creating Kira. Again, I wish they went into this a little more, but their are a range of possibilities: One of which is that Ulen was selling the clones to different governments for various testing...Rey could have been one of these people. Or Al was paying Ulen to keep perfecting the clones, which also makes sense if he wasn't satisfied with Rau (maybe that is the reason Rau killed him?).

3: Why couldn't they fix the Telomere thing? IDK...I will counter with, 'why is that important?'

Just a thought, but is it possible that the reason they couldn't fix the Telomeres is WHY they kept trying to MAKE clones. That does fall in line to Ulen's character. Remember he kept trying to make the "Ultimate Coordinator" after repeated failures. The man is a perfectionist.

4: So why couldn't Ulen fix the problem? He might have been able too if given the time...but he kind of had a run in with Blue Cosmos. But if he viewed the clones as only a source of revenue then he probably didn't care about the clones at all.

5: Rey isn't a clone of Rau. He is a clone of Al. Again, he says this later in the series after all this comes out.

6: Why is Al not a fan of Mu? Well...that is a slightly bigger question. My belief is that they man was an arrogant, douche-bag with a GOD complex. (Remember: "Laws can be changed, after all...they are only made by HUMANS.") So with all the coordinator issues that were happening around that time, Al probably saw the natural genes of Mu's mother as inferior. So being an asshole, he probably became obsessed with the idea of cloning HIMSELF but making himself a coordinator...thus 'perfect.'

[Silver_August]

It's not so much that I question the where, why and how's of Rey's backstory, I just wish he did more in the series.. or to possibly word myself more specfically, I wish we saw more of him.

Not enough to make him an open book but enough to make me care.

Tiera from 00 was an Innovade, there's a ton of stuff we don't see and don't really know about him till the end of Season 2, but we've still seen him do a lot and grow as a character into someone we cared about.

By the time he became a super computer, I never felt like he was an open book. We know who he was but there was still intrigue to him.

I guess I kinda wish Rey was more like that..but that's just one more thing 00 did right where Destiny failed (least in my eyes).

[Soma Taozi]

It's not so much that I question the where, why and how's of Rey's backstory, I just wish he did more in the series.. or to possibly word myself more specfically, I wish we saw more of him.

Not enough to make him an open book but enough to make me care.

Tiera from 00 was an Innovade, there's a ton of stuff we don't see and don't really know about him till the end of Season 2, but we've still seen him do a lot and grow as a character into someone we cared about.

By the time he became a super computer, I never felt like he was an open book. We know who he was but there was still intrigue to him.

I guess I kinda wish Rey was more like that..but that's just one more thing 00 did right where Destiny failed (least in my eyes).

And I would agree...if Rey was supposed to be the protagonist (or at least one of the 'good guys'), but he isn't...he is an antagonist whose whole character is about how he followers orders, wants to create a new world, and is a clone of Rau. I felt a little bad for him at the end of the series, but not enough to make me care about him.

Should Destiny have done something different with him... maybe...but if writers making you not care about an antagonist is a "flaw"...then every gundam series has this issue. I never cared about Ribbons, Rau, Ulube, Chronicler, Master Asia, Scirocco, ect, ect, ect.

I thought some of these were "cool" antagonists and some of them you can sympathize with...but that is about it...because they are the antagonists. You aren't supposed to care about them the same way you care about protagonists. And if we are saying that we wish Destiny used Rey's antagonistic nature EARLIER in the series...then why aren't people complaining about how Rau wasn't revealed to be evil until the last 10 episodes of Seed? Or how Ulube suddenly went from a supporting character in G-Gundam...to a full on homicidal madman in the final arc? People seem to love those characters (at least people love Rau).

I am not saying I think their is a bit of a double standard going on...but their is a double standard going on

[HellCat]

For me, the roadblock has always been how obvious what they were doing with Neo and Rey from the word go. In SEED Mu was the kickass mentor figure with a bit of female fanservice and Rau was the mysterious masked antagonist. Destiny just flips the two around, only with the addition of saying "You know how Rau was a tortured man who cursed his own existance? What if we aged him down and made him pouty rather than genocidal? Oh and have him possibly gay for an older man so fangirls REALLY take the bait"

I liked Rau. I thought he was a great character with his own agenda, logical arguments for why he felt the way he did and a master of playing both sides without making it insultingly obvious to the viewing audience. Rey was just a watered down for fangirls version, in much the same way Meer was a watered down Lacus for fanboys.

[Amion]

I agree with most of what you say, except the gay part. Who would this be now? Rau was his older brother type figure and Durandel was his adoptive father. How are either of these gay? Or am I missing someone?

[monster]

It must be the blush Rey had in earlier episodes for Durandal and the way they hugged. But yeah, it looks more childish than sexual.