The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

The place to discuss anything relating to anime or manga.
Locked
User avatar
Sume Gai
Posts: 3914
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:57 pm
Location: side 3; watchin' out for Zabis
Contact:

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Sume Gai » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:25 am

monster wrote:And that's exactly what happened. The AF made a move and Durandal fired the Requiem. (He had already declared LOGOS/AF leaders as enemies of humanity before.)
By the time he had requiem LOGOS and the AF lacked any sort of leadership. A fleet was launching but I certainly don't recall said fleet making any sort of direct statements about their intentions. It may be a pretty safe bet they wanted to annihilate the coordinators from an audience standpoint but that isn't in-universe justification for a preemptive strike.
"If You are a man you'll do what's important before you grieve" -Captain Harlock

"I like the SAGA. Its what Rambo would pilot if he was in Gundam 00" -Kylern

monster
Posts: 767
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:45 pm

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by monster » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:32 am

Sume Gai wrote:By the time he had requiem LOGOS and the AF lacked any sort of leadership. A fleet was launching but I certainly don't recall said fleet making any sort of direct statements about their intentions. It may be a pretty safe bet they wanted to annihilate the coordinators from an audience standpoint but that isn't in-universe justification for a preemptive strike.
The in-universe justification is that a fleet was on its way to attack the PLANTs and the preemptive strike was made so as to not give them a chance to do more damage. As far as I know, the AF has yet to declare an end to the war. So as far as anyone else is concerned, there is only one likely reason why a fleet of AF warships is moving toward the PLANTs.

User avatar
Sume Gai
Posts: 3914
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:57 pm
Location: side 3; watchin' out for Zabis
Contact:

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Sume Gai » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:11 am

Event if you have good reason to suspect the fleet is Hostile that's no reason to respond preemptively with a weapon of Mass destruction. It is justification to deploy your own forces and justification to ready whatever you might call defensive measures.

If the fleet had declared continued hostile intent towards your citizens or actually posed an otherwise unassailable threat then maybe you could justify using a Weapon of Mass destruction. (even that is shaky reasoning).

Durandal basically drops down to the same level as any of the other CE villains in that moment. It's the rhetorical equivalent of shooting someone who you expect to disagree with your opinion. Even if they've tried to hurt you in the past your argument loses any sort of validity if you shoot first before they have a chance to react.
"If You are a man you'll do what's important before you grieve" -Captain Harlock

"I like the SAGA. Its what Rambo would pilot if he was in Gundam 00" -Kylern

monster
Posts: 767
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:45 pm

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by monster » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:51 am

Sume Gai wrote:Event if you have good reason to suspect the fleet is Hostile that's no reason to respond preemptively with a weapon of Mass destruction. It is justification to deploy your own forces and justification to ready whatever you might call defensive measures.

If the fleet had declared continued hostile intent towards your citizens or actually posed an otherwise unassailable threat then maybe you could justify using a Weapon of Mass destruction. (even that is shaky reasoning).
Again, unless there's other information I've missed, the war hasn't ended yet.
Durandal basically drops down to the same level as any of the other CE villains in that moment.
The other CE villains wouldn't have stopped with just the military targets. Azrael and Djibril, in particular, had no problem attacking civilian populations with WMD as a first strike.
It's the rhetorical equivalent of shooting someone who you expect to disagree with your opinion. Even if they've tried to hurt you in the past your argument loses any sort of validity if you shoot first before they have a chance to react.
I would say it's the equivalent of shooting someone who is coming at you with a sword. Oh, and that someone had shot your family member with that same gun and had killed other people along the way. I doubt the family members and friends of the ones who were killed would mind too much.

I mean, sure, you could stand on guard with your own sword, but if you're already committed to the fight anyway...

User avatar
Sume Gai
Posts: 3914
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:57 pm
Location: side 3; watchin' out for Zabis
Contact:

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Sume Gai » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:39 am

The war might as well be over with anyone of apparent note in LOGOS dead as of Daedalus. (Haven't you noticed the CE Universe's favorite game is follow the batZOINKS crazy leader) There was the Federation President who was pretty explicitly said to be a puppet so who knows what he'd do with his strings cut.

It was pretty clear Durandal didn't intend to stop there either, if his With me or Against me speech was anything to go by.

Also my point was the fleet's intent was unclear, it wasn't rushing in guns blazing against the plants or even messiah. Despite how stupidly predictable unnamed CE-verse characters are, in-universe, there is still no justification to annihilate them with a super weapon. Unless I'm entirely forgetting something, they weren't rushing in in some banzai charge. Their goal was still ambiguous.
"If You are a man you'll do what's important before you grieve" -Captain Harlock

"I like the SAGA. Its what Rambo would pilot if he was in Gundam 00" -Kylern

monster
Posts: 767
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:45 pm

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by monster » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:57 am

Sume Gai wrote:The war might as well be over with anyone of apparent note in LOGOS dead as of Daedalus. (Haven't you noticed the CE Universe's favorite game is follow the batZOINKS crazy leader) There was the Federation President who was pretty explicitly said to be a puppet so who knows what he'd do with his strings cut.
Well, that President sent out a fleet of warships.
It was pretty clear Durandal didn't intend to stop there either, if his With me or Against me speech was anything to go by.
Maybe to the audience, but I thought we're talking in-universe?
Also my point was the fleet's intent was unclear, it wasn't rushing in guns blazing against the plants or even messiah. Despite how stupidly predictable unnamed CE-verse characters are, in-universe, there is still no justification to annihilate them with a super weapon. Unless I'm entirely forgetting something, they weren't rushing in in some banzai charge. Their goal was still ambiguous.
They were launching warships from the Moon to the PLANTs. Of course it's going to take time before they could engage, but that doesn't mean they're not attacking. When you're in a state of war, a fleet of warships coming at you is provocation enough.

User avatar
Sume Gai
Posts: 3914
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:57 pm
Location: side 3; watchin' out for Zabis
Contact:

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Sume Gai » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:25 am

I'm pretty sure Durandal stated quite openly that anyone who opposed the Destiny Plan were Enemies of mankind. Can't get much more explicit than that. (though I do not recall how publicly this was stated)

I still do not believe that is provocation enough to use A WMD, not when ZAFT has trounced the Federation/LOGOS time and again with conventional weapons. Even on a military target that's a senseless waste of life. Durandal gave no warning and little time for them to react to the shift in paradigm his Destiny Plan promised.
"If You are a man you'll do what's important before you grieve" -Captain Harlock

"I like the SAGA. Its what Rambo would pilot if he was in Gundam 00" -Kylern

monster
Posts: 767
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:45 pm

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by monster » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:46 am

Sume Gai wrote:I'm pretty sure Durandal stated quite openly that anyone who opposed the Destiny Plan were Enemies of mankind. Can't get much more explicit than that. (though I do not recall how publicly this was stated)
It was stated after he ordered the Requiem to be fired, not in a public announcement.
I still do not believe that is provocation enough to use A WMD, not when ZAFT has trounced the Federation/LOGOS time and again with conventional weapons. Even on a military target that's a senseless waste of life. Durandal gave no warning and little time for them to react to the shift in paradigm his Destiny Plan promised.
I respect that opinion. But when you're living in a world where one side freely and openly uses nuclear weapons, the Destroy Gundam, and the Requiem, I think people's view of what's a provocation coming from such an enemy would be much lower than yours.

Also, while the Destiny Plan is, of course, a factor, firing at the AF fleet is still just part of the ongoing war, which is actually something quite separate from the Destiny Plan. The Destiny Plan was offered to the various nations who have experienced wars and would not like to experience it again; it is not offered as a way to end an ongoing war. Once a war has been declared, there is nothing the Destiny Plan could do about it.

User avatar
HellCat
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:24 am

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by HellCat » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:47 am

Up to the Gilbert flashback episode.

I do like the general theme of this episode, that of if a single person can change the world and if there's any prize awaiting our species at the end of our collective struggling. I always liked Rau and I feel the episode has him raise valid points. Maybe we're not to see them as such but they ferl that way to me.

I think that's actually one of my biggest problems with the show- I don't really like any of the characters. There’s plenty of posturing, angst and melodrama but nothing to make me want to root for anyone. It's that kind of 'deep' that's aimed squarely at young teenagers
Gundam AGEs Forum- Three destinies will form discussion.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

User avatar
Amion
Posts: 2167
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Amion » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:39 am

I don't understand why it would be a big deal to use a WMD on a military fleet like that, maybe I'm just being sociopathic but I'd rather not sacrifice more troops and let a fleet wonder in when to repeat the end of SEED when I could just atomize them and save time and lives.

It only terrifies because it's a weapon that can be used on civilian targets easily, as Durandel planned to do to Orb.
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

User avatar
Sume Gai
Posts: 3914
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:57 pm
Location: side 3; watchin' out for Zabis
Contact:

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Sume Gai » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:35 pm

WMDs can strike indiscriminately without giving the attacked side the option to resist in any way. It's either a tyrant's ultimate enforcer or a tool of genocide. The ONLY condition where I would condone their use would be when using such a thing is the difference between annihilation and survival (not victory or defeat) Which is hardly the case for the Plants at this point.

Yes you could spare lives on your side but those potential lost lives are a deterrent to going to war. Much like wing's Mobile Dolls, WMDs dehumanize war to the point that it becomes a game. Press a button and no one else's wishes or actions matter anymore.

I =liked= Durandal as a character and villain because he didn't act like any other CE villain to that point then suddenly despite saying different things he was acting basically like Patrick Zala 2.0. Sure he doubtless did some nasty under the table stuff prior but he genuinely worked to maintain a good public image and half the moral arguments in the end of the show might have held some weight if he'd continued doing that. Even the AF managed to do something similar in SEED with the destruction of JOSHA.
"If You are a man you'll do what's important before you grieve" -Captain Harlock

"I like the SAGA. Its what Rambo would pilot if he was in Gundam 00" -Kylern

iCards
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:46 pm

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by iCards » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:21 am

Just watched episode 32. Chaos was the order of the day.

Talia to Shinn: Don't confuse who your enemies are.

Shinn's role this episode is that he ends up in much confusion. Attacks Destroy thinking some genocidal crazy person, typical EA/Blue Cosmos Solider, is piloting it and gets a shock to his system by the MASKED MAN and goes swinging his sword at the guy trying to stop the Destroy as well. Granted Shinn did almost succeed in getting Stella to stop, but one exploding panel in the cockpit and Kira, curious as to what the heck is going on, drops the Freedom down closer triggering another episode. Kira is left with little choice but to take an opening and destroy the MS, and as a result mortally injuring Stella.

The last scene where it's flashing between Stella's last moments and Shinn's destroyed family I think would be Shinn saying to himself "Not Again?!". I liked how that last scene was presented.

Stella may have died but I still believe Kira made the right choice; if Shinn wasn't going to stop her at that point then someone had to do something. Also Shinn/Stella shippers get a bonus at the end.
Last edited by iCards on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Xenosynth
Posts: 1168
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:03 am

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Xenosynth » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:52 am

Hrm, watching the episode, as much as a lot of works makes Kira killing her seem a bit extreme (Such as in SRW, though it seems to be more pointing out the hypocrisy of Kira in certain situations rather than actually stopping Stella, since they also criticize Shinn for ignoring everyone else getting hurt while trying to stop Stella), I have to feel the sheer amount of civilians getting killed seems like it became a necessity.

The only annoyance I really had was like... Was the attack that much of a surprise attack? It appeared that they had a whole defense set up to attack the Destroy Gundam. And even after the attack begins, it shows random refugees with soldiers... still in the streets. I mean... I feel like it was a bit too extreme sometimes, I know clearing out a populated city isn't fast but... still. Having everyone sit about dumbly and getting annhilated, it felt a bit odd to me. Did Zaft not warn them the attack was coming? And weren't there other attacks that happened in other cities?
Last edited by Xenosynth on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

monster
Posts: 767
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:45 pm

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by monster » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:54 am

Sume Gai wrote:I =liked= Durandal as a character and villain because he didn't act like any other CE villain to that point then suddenly despite saying different things he was acting basically like Patrick Zala 2.0. Sure he doubtless did some nasty under the table stuff prior but he genuinely worked to maintain a good public image and half the moral arguments in the end of the show might have held some weight if he'd continued doing that. Even the AF managed to do something similar in SEED with the destruction of JOSHA.
Ok, so three things here:

1. Wasn't Patrick Zala willing to target the entire Earth? How could what Durandal did be comparable?

2. Again, despite the nature of the Requiem, Durandal still only fired at an incoming fleet of warships and military base of a nation who has done much worse. So I doubt Durandal's public image suffered significantly.

3. Durandal's major argument was that the status quo is bad. The existence of the Requiem merely emphasizes that idea.

User avatar
Silver_August
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:05 pm
Location: Harvestone Town, Ginune Region
Contact:

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Silver_August » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:56 am

I haven't watched the episode yet, but already this discussion is giving me flashbacks to Unicorn Episode 4 when Bananas couldn't pull the trigger after an attempt with reasoning with the enemy failed.

Coincidence? Naaah just a cliche in mecha and anime, lol

Xenosynth
Posts: 1168
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:03 am

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Xenosynth » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:58 am

Yeah, Shinn feels like he definitely had a Banagher-esque moment, though at least with Shinn he has a sort of built up relationship with Stella, Banagher had no such thing, and as much as I am a fan of Unicorn that episode still bugs the hell out of me. Also, first time watcher of Gundam Seed Destiny (Kind of the second but I was on and off with the anime for a long time and decided to just catch up watching the HD remaster, so sorry if I miss certain things.)

Also, one other question:
Spoiler
Show
Any explanation for how that Sting Oakley fellow survives the plummet and explosion of the Chaos? I know this might be an older question but again, first time watching and well, it seems VERY unlikely he'd survive that >_> But I know from other materials that he returns later.

User avatar
Angelo Sauper
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:22 pm

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Angelo Sauper » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:21 am

Xenosynth wrote:Also, one other question:
Spoiler
Show
Any explanation for how that Sting Oakley fellow survives the plummet and explosion of the Chaos? I know this might be an older question but again, first time watching and well, it seems VERY unlikely he'd survive that >_> But I know from other materials that he returns later.
I thought most people would be used to SEED's "no body, no death" policy by now.

Xenosynth
Posts: 1168
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:03 am

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Xenosynth » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:01 am

Well, I mean, yes and no. Remember, this is my first full viewing.
Spoiler
Show
It happening with major characters? I can understand. But I didn't think it'd happen to someone like him too. Kira? Andrew? Mu/Neo? A bit more understandable given the popularity/prominence of the characters ((Still frustrating though)). But Sting... Iono, that seems a bit extreme even for Seed's reputation of not letting people stay dead.

User avatar
Amion
Posts: 2167
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Amion » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:49 am

Nothing is too extreme for SEED. :P But Sting was dropped as a relevant character at that point because Durandel and the Minerva crew were moving into the position of primary antagonists/antiheroes. So too bad for him. :D
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

User avatar
Sume Gai
Posts: 3914
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:57 pm
Location: side 3; watchin' out for Zabis
Contact:

Re: The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

Post by Sume Gai » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:55 am

monster wrote:Ok, so three things here:

1. Wasn't Patrick Zala willing to target the entire Earth? How could what Durandal did be comparable?

2. Again, despite the nature of the Requiem, Durandal still only fired at an incoming fleet of warships and military base of a nation who has done much worse. So I doubt Durandal's public image suffered significantly.
Patrick's first two targets with GENESIS were military as well, the attacking fleet and the previous war's Federation lunar base. Durandal all but told us he'd be going for Orb or Scandinavia next and in Zala's case his citizens were actually in immediate danger from nuclear warheads (something the Plants under Durandal have a perfect counter for). Right after that Zala started ranting and raving about vaporizing the earth though. Different words, same actions with s;lightly -less- justification behind them.
monster wrote:3. Durandal's major argument was that the status quo is bad. The existence of the Requiem merely emphasizes that idea.
If you mean Requiem's existence was a representation of the previous status quo and how messed up it was; that's all the more reason not to use it. Abstaining from using Neo GENESIS and Requiem publicly would represent a definitive break from his predecessors who threw those things around like candy. Even if the Federation was likely to attack another leader with a super weapon isn't likely to convince the majority o the world that still hadn't decided to join the Destiny Plan.
"If You are a man you'll do what's important before you grieve" -Captain Harlock

"I like the SAGA. Its what Rambo would pilot if he was in Gundam 00" -Kylern

Locked