The Gundam SEED DESTINY Remaster Thread Mk II

[Soma Taozi]

And given what will happen next, Athrun is too nice, or he's too scared of Rey. He never seems to have anything to say to Rey.

I wouldn't say it was either of those things...the impression I got was that Athrun was just shocked at Rey. He had never heard him sling more then 3 to 5 words together in a sentence...and suddenly he starts talking about 'the past is the past.' I think he was just surprised that Rey was actually contributing to the conversation lol

But if we look at Rey's character from what he said...it is pretty clear that he has no real desires for the future. He is content with just sitting and letting himself be guided through the present by a certain someone...

He could complain that he is a different person than Rau...but it is too late, it is in the past. He is Rau and there is nothing he can do about it....talk about apathetic...

[monster]

I wouldn't say it was either of those things...the impression I got was that Athrun was just shocked at Rey. He had never heard him sling more then 3 to 5 words together in a sentence...and suddenly he starts talking about 'the past is the past.' I think he was just surprised that Rey was actually contributing to the conversation lol

The problem is that this would continue throughout the series, especially when both Athrun and Rey would be talking to Shinn during a battle, like during Athrun's escape.

But if we look at Rey's character from what he said...it is pretty clear that he has no real desires for the future. He is content with just sitting and letting himself be guided through the present by a certain someone...

He could complain that he is a different person than Rau...but it is too late, it is in the past. He is Rau and there is nothing he can do about it....talk about apathetic...

Indeed, that's why I said that he doesn't apply any hope for the future to himself. Even at the end, Rey was willing to shoot Durandal for Kira but still allowed himself to die.

[Amion]

Well at least he's not bent on exterminating humanity.

[monster]

Well at least he's not bent on exterminating humanity.

I'm sure Durandal was a factor in that.

[Amion]

Most likely.

[Silver_August]

OK! I'm Alive, sorry I was incredibly late watching this episode - I was busy graduating college and breeding pokemon, lol

Anyways as toe yellow subs indicate, this episode didn't have anything new just stuff needed to move the plot along, yet again setting up for next week's episode which was no doubt had its action scenes directed by Sir. Bay

So that aside uh well.. I'm kinda sadder that they have flashbacks of Mu's death but you know he's coming back soooooon...its one of those things where even if i didn't know in advance (anyone who couldn't guess it is silly_ I'd still be annoyed by how implausible it is.

Annnd yep, Shinn would've been executed if it wasn't for Durandal having a "plan" in place for him, guy really needs to stop playing chess with ghosts, lol

[Soma Taozi]

Annnd yep, Shinn would've been executed if it wasn't for Durandal having a "plan" in place for him, guy really needs to stop playing chess with ghosts, lol

But that is what makes him so cool. Give me philosophical chess games any day. It is the same reason I love the matrix reloaded (sucky plot, but since characters spend half the time talking about philsophy that I can over look those large flaws).

Same reasoning for Durrandal, his destiny plan might have been crazy and nonsensical in the story (compared to the Vegans his plan seems pretty reasonable though), but I can forgive him because of his chess matches with dead people.

[Dark Duel]

You know it's funny, around the time me and my co-author at the time (He has long since dropped out of the project) were planning our(now my) GSD rewrite, the second thing that we did was decide how to deal with Durandal and his rather ridiculous grand master plan; and he got the idea to pattern his plan after the Perfect Peace People from Battlefield of Pacifist, only scaled up to include a planetary-scale Wave Motion Gun. Still a silly idea, but less so (we thought).
Ironically, a couple of years later Code Geass R2 came around and did the same thing
Of course, the actual writing started years after that, but still.

But my point is, Durendal himself is, in my opinion, the SINGLE character who was not absurdly mishandled by the end of the series, despite the sheer stupidity of the Destiny Plan, which we had discussions about that went on for hours, and I don't want to get into because it's been nearly a decade anyway.
But Durendal was a brilliant villain - far more intriguing and interesting that hyper-racist whackjobs like Patrick Zala, Azrael, or Jibril, and certainly far more interesting, if less entertaining, than that omnicidal maniac Le Creuset(I liked Le Creuset better when he was just the mysterious masked man with an agenda. The omnicidal maniac version from the last couple of episodes amused me, but was IMO far less interesting).

[Silver_August]

Honestly, a rewrite could really make Durandel be a great villian, his role is very subtle, he's in a position where he can do this and no one is really getting in his way because he's so...hush hush about it.

At the same time, his reasoning for the plan could be a very sympathic and tragic one because what he wants is an EXTREME measure of achieving peace and raises the question of whether or not peace is obtainable without taking away humanity's right to choose.

Chess is an ironic game for him to play because in chess peace is impossible, both sides will always try to destroy each other, and for pros, decisions are made turns in advance, adding to the theme of his Destiny Plan choosing your moves for you... but again, there's no way to have a tie, its a chosen conflict.

[monster]

Chess is an ironic game for him to play because in chess peace is impossible, both sides will always try to destroy each other, and for pros, decisions are made turns in advance, adding to the theme of his Destiny Plan choosing your moves for you... but again, there's no way to have a tie, its a chosen conflict.

Chess is a game where eliminating your opponent is not really the objective. I think it's an appropriate game in contrast to Zala and Azrael's goal of eliminating the other side.

[Kuruni]

What else he should play? Go? Poker? Yugi-oh?

Well, playing chess has certain implication.

[Sume Gai]

The biggest issue with Durandal is that at the end of this series his entire modis oderandai winds up changing. He spends the whole series manipulating and setting-up his space communist master plan then starts spamming doomsday lasers like -every other CE villain-.

He could use the events of the series to set-up a strong case for his Destiny plan, could have kept playing it cool and waited to make those who objected look like bad guys and built up even more support. Instead he blasts the people who lacked an official stance while sitting on his palpatine throne in his super death fortress removing any sort of doubt that he's a complete villain.

[Amion]

The biggest issue with Durandal is that at the end of this series his entire modis oderandai winds up changing. He spends the whole series manipulating and setting-up his space communist master plan then starts spamming doomsday lasers like -every other CE villain-.

He could use the events of the series to set-up a strong case for his Destiny plan, could have kept playing it cool and waited to make those who objected look like bad guys and built up even more support. Instead he blasts the people who lacked an official stance while sitting on his palpatine throne in his super death fortress removing any sort of doubt that he's a complete villain.

I think that's what really got me about Durandel at the end. His sudden affection for world-ending weapons seemed a bit out of character compared to what he was. I'll wait until I see the end again though, not that I've forgotten much about that part....Right now for me, the animation is what's really bugging me more than the story. For someone who doesn't mind poor quality to enjoy a story, this is unusual for me.

Oh Dark Duel, shame on you. You're not supposed to laugh at Rau, you're supposed to laugh with him.

[HellCat]

I'm just amazed that seemingly 98% of humanity signed up to the Destiny Plan as a good idea. Why? Did they assume it would skip existing humans and if so, did they really want such a life for their child? One where your role in society is chosen before you can even properly form thoughts?

I get the feeling it's supposed to be seen as another shade of how people abused the knowledge George Glenn made public which led to the Coordinator boom, but it just makes the people look like sheep for believing it was better than major powers going to war.

[monster]

The biggest issue with Durandal is that at the end of this series his entire modis oderandai winds up changing. He spends the whole series manipulating and setting-up his space communist master plan then starts spamming doomsday lasers like -every other CE villain-.

He could use the events of the series to set-up a strong case for his Destiny plan, could have kept playing it cool and waited to make those who objected look like bad guys and built up even more support. Instead he blasts the people who lacked an official stance while sitting on his palpatine throne in his super death fortress removing any sort of doubt that he's a complete villain.

The reason for the change was because the time was right. Durandal bid his time until he acquired the Requiem. After that, it was simply a matter of eliminating most of what's left of the AF's remaining forces, who are still on the attack, while minimizing the casualty on ZAFT's side.

With that out of the way, the only people left who opposed his plan (Orb and Scandinavia) might never look like the bad guys. Unfortunately, unlike the situation in Mars, where they chose to isolate themselves (for the most part), Durandal's plan was a global plan, which required everyone to accept. Otherwise, it wouldn't work as there would still be people outside of the system, causing potential conflict.

I'm just amazed that seemingly 98% of humanity signed up to the Destiny Plan as a good idea.

This is false. Durandal was explicitly told that Orb and Scandinavia opposed his plan while the rest of the world was still unsure.

[Sume Gai]

The reason for the change was because the time was right. Durandal bid his time until he acquired the Requiem. After that, it was simply a matter of eliminating most of what's left of the AF's remaining forces, who are still on the attack, while minimizing the casualty on ZAFT's side.

With that out of the way, the only people left who opposed his plan (Orb and Scandinavia) might never look like the bad guys. Unfortunately, unlike the situation in Mars, where they chose to isolate themselves (for the most part), Durandal's plan was a global plan, which required everyone to accept. Otherwise, it wouldn't work as there would still be people outside of the system, causing potential conflict.

If having super weapon = right time then it's still a serious degradation from ambiguous to outright super villain. Perhaps Orb and Scandinavia (that name drop always kinda seemed silly) objected but everyone else, as you yourself admitted, were unsure. If people are still unsure then it doesn't help to start blasting them with super weapons, it rather ruins any sort of goodwill they might have towards you.

Waiting for someone else to act aggressively, as the series itself had already shown in early episodes, does garner sympathy and support. Durandal did a marvelous job making the Federation look like utter asshats throughout the whole series to the point he got a large number of people in on his Logos hunt, there's absolutely no given reason he couldn't try the same thing with Destiny dissenters. (let them try to attack him, then blast them with the stolen super weapon "in self defense)

He could also have simply ignored Orb and Scandinavia, or even let them start something, and used the rest of the world to prove his plan would work. Or even pointed to Shinn and explained how adhering to the Destiny Plan had benefited him.

[iCards]

I'm just amazed that seemingly 98% of humanity signed up to the Destiny Plan as a good idea.

This is false. Durandal was explicitly told that Orb and Scandinavia opposed his plan while the rest of the world was still unsure.

This.

I watched the last 12 or so episodes of Destiny and Final Plus recently because I could get the DVDs for $3.00 new, and the final battle came across as more of a test of strength between ORB and Durandel, since he adopted the "with me or against me" attitude after he decided to reveal the Destiny Plan. Especially after he made an "example" out of the Atlantic Federation's Moon City.

[monster]

If having super weapon = right time then it's still a serious degradation from ambiguous to outright super villain. Perhaps Orb and Scandinavia (that name drop always kinda seemed silly) objected but everyone else, as you yourself admitted, were unsure. If people are still unsure then it doesn't help to start blasting them with super weapons, it rather ruins any sort of goodwill they might have towards you.

Waiting for someone else to act aggressively, as the series itself had already shown in early episodes, does garner sympathy and support. Durandal did a marvelous job making the Federation look like utter asshats throughout the whole series to the point he got a large number of people in on his Logos hunt, there's absolutely no given reason he couldn't try the same thing with Destiny dissenters. (let them try to attack him, then blast them with the stolen super weapon "in self defense)

He could also have simply ignored Orb and Scandinavia, or even let them start something, and used the rest of the world to prove his plan would work. Or even pointed to Shinn and explained how adhering to the Destiny Plan had benefited him.

The thing is, Orb and its allies only attacked because of the use of the Requiem. Without it, they could've peacefully rejected the Destiny Plan, which still would've left Durandal with the problem of not having everyone being in the Plan. Ignoring them doesn't seem to be an option for him. He's convinced that independent nations who rejected the Plan are enemies of humanity, probably because they would still incite conflict for the rest of the world.

Also, while using the Requiem is controversial, the AF/Alliance force was still going on the attack. My guess is that Durandal is hoping that the AF's reputation is already low enough that the rest of the world would just consider it as revenge for the PLANTs having been attacked by the Requiem. It might also help if the target at the moon was a military base, and not a civilian area.

By firing the Requiem, Durandal was able to spare the lives of ZAFT soldiers momentarily, destroy much of the AF's strength, and incite Orb and its allies to attack, all while still having some excuse for the public.

[Sume Gai]

Save the Three Ships Alliance Durandal had every trump card in his hand at that point. He can afford to let the AF make a move, there's basically nothing they can do to him. Once they do he has grounds to declare them enemies of Humanity and the right to fire up Messiah or requiem. Before this the only preemptive act he ever undertook was the assassination attempt on Lacus (which ultimately set his downfall in motion) so it still doesn't make sense to suddenly shift gears.

And ignoring Orb and Scandinavia fits a reactive stance perfectly. If he saw them as future sources of conflict then let them be, allow them to fester while publicly offering to incorporate them into the New World Order. If they spark a new conflict it's further proof that his plan is right and lays the groundwork for more public support.

[monster]

He can afford to let the AF make a move, there's basically nothing they can do to him. Once they do he has grounds to declare them enemies of Humanity and the right to fire up Messiah or requiem.

And that's exactly what happened. The AF made a move and Durandal fired the Requiem. (He had already declared LOGOS/AF leaders as enemies of humanity before.)

And ignoring Orb and Scandinavia fits a reactive stance perfectly. If he saw them as future sources of conflict then let them be, allow them to fester while publicly offering to incorporate them into the New World Order. If they spark a new conflict it's further proof that his plan is right and lays the groundwork for more public support.

The problem is not just that Orb and Scandinavia might incite conflict on their own, it's that conflict might arise when they show the rest of the world that they can be peaceful without their citizens being told what jobs they can have.