ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

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monster
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by monster » Mon May 25, 2015 1:18 pm

SonicSP wrote:Just "hero" sounds better I think. Shirou seems to be more interested in doing the right things regardless of one own's capabilities as evidence by him going into situations that are usually beyond his abilities. Kiritsugu saving him was an act that did not require superpowers, so the ideal seems to be just saving people.

"Ally of justice" sounds needlessly convoluted.
The term hero itself is also associated with some form of acknowledgement, and I don't think Shirou is at all concerned about being acknowledged for his actions.

While sounding awkward and convoluted, "ally of justice" seems to be the more accurate term, as long as you differentiate between being just and being lawful.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Raikoh » Mon May 25, 2015 1:38 pm

In the context of Fate, "hero" often has no acknowledgement, or it can also mean someone with good intentions who may end up vilified by history. Gilgamesh is a Heroic Spirit, as are the various Hassans, Gilles de Rais, and even characters like Medusa who were never seen as "heroic" (except by modern interpretations of the myth that realize how messed up the stuff that happened to Medusa was). If you count extended materials, a "hero" can also be anonymous like Robin Hood (though that part is canon with Hassan), or even a serial killer.

Why I am very picky about the usage of "superhero" is because it gets the gist of everything and wraps it up neatly in one term that is common in everyday speech. Shirou doesn't want to be someone like a police officer, he wants to be someone like Superman. Archer, in life, ended up more like Batman (and the Punisher after he became a Counter Guardian). The usage of "seigi no mikata" in Japanese media usually implies it's the type of person who beats the bad guys, which aligns with "superhero." Kotomine also points this out in Heaven's Feel - that Shirou's desire to be a superhero suggests that he needs an enemy who is just as determined.
SonicSP wrote:While we're at it, I noticed that they changed Archer's plan of erasing his own existence in the previous episode from the visual novel. Over here in the UBW-TV, it's to "kill Shirou's spirit/enthusiasm" in hopes that the world would erase himself. In the visual novel, he wanted to kill Shirou with his own hands to cause a possible paradox effect of one person killing his another of his own self in the last in hopes that the World would erase himself. Both seem to be long shots in terms of probability of success.
I noticed that, and also in the novel Archer implies that even if it isn't going to erase his existence, he wants to kill Shirou because it'll be therapeutic for him. Maybe they had to simplify things for the TV version since stuff involving the Counter Guardians are a bit too intangible and convoluted to fit into the runtime while keeping things interesting. There are parts of the Counter Force that I still don't fully understand.

Totally unrelated, but since they flashed back to the scene in the last episode I think it's something fun for me to remember. The scene where they show Shirou in some sort of factory in front of the glowing blue orb where he seems resolved to become a Counter Guardian. It just makes me think it might be a nod to Fate/Extra where Archer, in life, prevented a nuclear meltdown and considers that his greatest act of heroism (and Hakuno says it gave him a good tan, too).
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by monster » Mon May 25, 2015 3:03 pm

Raikoh wrote:In the context of Fate, "hero" often has no acknowledgement, or it can also mean someone with good intentions who may end up vilified by history. Gilgamesh is a Heroic Spirit, as are the various Hassans, Gilles de Rais, and even characters like Medusa who were never seen as "heroic" (except by modern interpretations of the myth that realize how messed up the stuff that happened to Medusa was). If you count extended materials, a "hero" can also be anonymous like Robin Hood (though that part is canon with Hassan), or even a serial killer.
Actually, the fact that they became heroic spirits and there is a legend told about them are forms of acknowledgement.
Why I am very picky about the usage of "superhero" is because it gets the gist of everything and wraps it up neatly in one term that is common in everyday speech. Shirou doesn't want to be someone like a police officer, he wants to be someone like Superman. Archer, in life, ended up more like Batman (and the Punisher after he became a Counter Guardian). The usage of "seigi no mikata" in Japanese media usually implies it's the type of person who beats the bad guys, which aligns with "superhero." Kotomine also points this out in Heaven's Feel - that Shirou's desire to be a superhero suggests that he needs an enemy who is just as determined.
I don't think superhero is commonly used in everyday speech unless when talking about fictional heroes. And since the subject of Shirou's admiration is a real person, hero would actually be the more commonly used term.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Raikoh » Mon May 25, 2015 10:14 pm

monster wrote:I don't think superhero is commonly used in everyday speech unless when talking about fictional heroes. And since the subject of Shirou's admiration is a real person, hero would actually be the more commonly used term.
Look at some of the context, though. When Taiga tells Sakura that young Shirou wanted to be a "seigi no mikata", he's kind of embarrassed about it like how a highschooler would be embarrassed at a pretty girl being told that his dream is to become a superhero. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs here, but "superhero" is how I've always seen it in the good translations and "superhero" just sounds the most fitting to me.

From side material:
Amongst Heroic Spirits, there were ones who existed in legends, ones who actually lived, and ones who were never observed.
Saying that it's possible for a Heroic Spirit to be someone completely anonymous. It hasn't been used much in Fate since no sane Master would willingly summon a Heroic Spirit with such a low power and no guarantee of having a skill to make up for it. But there have been more than a few Heroic Spirits who are completely without recognition - such as Emiya and Angra Mainyu (if you count spinoffs you can include characters like Arcueid, Nursery Rhyme, and Grand Order is likely to toss a few more of those into the mix).
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by monster » Tue May 26, 2015 6:45 am

Raikoh wrote:Look at some of the context, though. When Taiga tells Sakura that young Shirou wanted to be a "seigi no mikata", he's kind of embarrassed about it like how a highschooler would be embarrassed at a pretty girl being told that his dream is to become a superhero. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs here, but "superhero" is how I've always seen it in the good translations and "superhero" just sounds the most fitting to me.
I think anyone could be embarrassed to have being a hero as their goal as it's not a real occupation in today's world. It's not like saying wanting to be a police officer or firefighter or something like that.
From side material:
Amongst Heroic Spirits, there were ones who existed in legends, ones who actually lived, and ones who were never observed.
Saying that it's possible for a Heroic Spirit to be someone completely anonymous. It hasn't been used much in Fate since no sane Master would willingly summon a Heroic Spirit with such a low power and no guarantee of having a skill to make up for it. But there have been more than a few Heroic Spirits who are completely without recognition - such as Emiya and Angra Mainyu (if you count spinoffs you can include characters like Arcueid, Nursery Rhyme, and Grand Order is likely to toss a few more of those into the mix).
Acknowledgement doesn't have to come from human beings. At the end of the day, whatever force of nature made these people heroic spirits acknowledged them to have the qualifications. Otherwise, every living human beings would become heroic spirits once they die.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by SonicSP » Thu May 28, 2015 2:22 pm

Raikoh wrote:I just don't like Aimer or Kalafina (okay I can stand Kalafina but every one of her songs sound the same).
This is nitpickish, but Kalafina is a trio of women rather than a single person. So yeah a trio of women who's songs mostly sound the same.

And apparently their Wikipedia page claims that they were originally formed for Kara no Kyokai, so it would also sort of explain why they're also involved with Fate Zero and Unlimited Blade Works-TV since they are also ufotable anime adaptations of Nasuverse works.

I think they did a great job with Kara no Kyokai but I'm not a big fan of pretty much all of their other works outside of that save for Magia from Madoka Magica.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sat May 30, 2015 2:27 pm

Episode 21:

Well, that was a disappointing anti-climax, especially when they wasted 2 whole episodes on build up. Remind me why people think ufotable is better than DEEN?
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Soma Taozi » Sat May 30, 2015 8:23 pm

Better animation? Characterization? Explanation? Action? Tone? Clearer theme? Story-telling? And not getting bogged down in the shipping (sure there was a little in the first part, but they at least had it motivated by Rin trying to give Shirou something to live for)? And that is just off the top of my head. Additionally, I loved the finale of the fight, idk why you didn't but since you didn't explain, I cannot say much. And the conversation about 10 years ago really helped show the mindset of Gil. Overall, great episode.

And the flip side of you, I fail to understand what people see in the DEEN production. Yes it has positives and gets more hate then it deserves, but overall? I would give it a 'meh'...maybe 'meh+' if I was feeling generous.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sat May 30, 2015 8:46 pm

I might give you better animation, but better characterization and development? Sure they have a lot more to it but the way they do it brings everything to a screeching halt while everyone stands around talking about it. In this particular case, they spent two freaking episodes talking and in this episode it's finished with a very brief and not very interesting fight which ends because Archer just gave up. Compare this to the movie version where they were talking while having an amazing fight.

Shiro vs Archer is the emotional and character climax of the arc, but it went out with a wimper instead of a bang.

As for shipping (or lack thereof) that has to do with the source material rather than the studio adapting it. UBW is so far up Shiro and Archer's ass that Rin gets no development despite being the main heroine. All she gets to do is complain about how stupid the other characters are being rather than growing as one herself.

As for DEEN's work, it's quite faithful to the source material (you can take a shot for each scene that's a direct reproduction of one of the game CGs), with the liberties they do take enhancing things without bogging it down or stretching things out. The extent of it really was just dealing with Caster which was similar to what happens in UBW with a little Heaven's Feel thrown in. It combined the routes instead of just over inflating what was in the Fate route. The animation was good and the soundtrack is waaaay better. So far as the UBW movie goes, they did they best they could to make it work as a single movie. The most important bits were left in tact and the action set pieces were amazing. If you think ufotable won't have similar problems cramming Heaven's Feel into one movie, you're sadly mistaken.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by monster » Sun May 31, 2015 8:21 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:If you think ufotable won't have similar problems cramming Heaven's Feel into one movie, you're sadly mistaken.
I thought it was going to be more than one movies.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sun May 31, 2015 11:19 am

monster wrote:I thought it was going to be more than one movies.
I'm hoping for that as well, but they've made no such announcement.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Soma Taozi » Sun May 31, 2015 1:31 pm

Your argument seems to boil down to you enjoying the source material and being a big fan of it. As someone who has played a little of the source material, and read a TON about it I seem to like the UBW adaption more than DEENs, precisely BECAUSE I have barely played the VN...but from what I have seen, I don't think I want too...

I found the VN bogged down in the pairings and weird harem aspects that unfortunately remind me of SAO. Its sexist too in its treatment of the female characters (if the author has to say that he is going to try harder to write better women…I think that speaks for itself). So if UBW TV takes some liberties here or there, okay…I am fine with that. If people wanted something just like the VN, PLAY THE VN. I have no comment about the music, except that I honestly see both equally. Because, again, I don’t find any tracks memorable from the original. Fate/Zero’s soundtrack, despite sounding the same for a lot of songs, was better than both IMO. Additionally, UBW has Aimer…so yeah ;)

I disagree with that assessment that everything stops when they focus on the characters. The only episode I can think of that might be guilty of this is episode 11 of season one…but then, the DEEN adaption had an episode where Shirou takes Saber out on a DATE. For no reason except…shipping? That far exceeds anything UBW does...and I know you will probably make the argument about the necessity of that episode in the DEEN production. But then, so could I in UBW…It seems to me that the Visual Novel just stops everything so the characters can have "romantic moments (you know what I am talking about)", which really makes no sense given the situation a lot of these people are put in.

And I have no idea what you are talking about a 'whimper.' The summoning of massive swords to throw at Shirou, mixed with the emiya theme (omg, I think I am starting to get the love for that song), and the lighting of the Blade Works with clear blue skies was great. Better than the movie where Shirou’s responses were, “Right will always defeat wrong!” Which isn’t really an answer to what Archer was saying; whereas in this version, Shirou’s answers to Archer make sense and explain why Archer gives up. And although it was less flashy and quick, I found the meaning behind the artwork in the finale between Shirou and Archer far more dramatic and emotional.

Huh…where did I say I think ufotable will do a movie better? I know it will be rushed and probably leave a lot of stuff out (if it is just one film). Just because I like this adaption of UBW doesn’t mean I think ufotable is perfect (I am still mad at them about movie 6 of the Garden of Sinners). I think they are doing a fine job with decent source material that showcases the strengths of the Fate franchise. And hey, I actually don’t hate Shirou in this version! He is tolerable! And his “I protect women, because women cannot protect themselves” is toned down and almost nonexistent!
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sun May 31, 2015 5:48 pm

Soma Taozi wrote:Your argument seems to boil down to you enjoying the source material and being a big fan of it. As someone who has played a little of the source material, and read a TON about it I seem to like the UBW adaption more than DEENs, precisely BECAUSE I have barely played the VN...but from what I have seen, I don't think I want too...
I saw the DEEN anime before I played any of the visual novel, so that doesn't factor much into it.
Soma Taozi wrote:I disagree with that assessment that everything stops when they focus on the characters. The only episode I can think of that might be guilty of this is episode 11 of season one…but then, the DEEN adaption had an episode where Shirou takes Saber out on a DATE. For no reason except…shipping? That far exceeds anything UBW does...and I know you will probably make the argument about the necessity of that episode in the DEEN production. But then, so could I in UBW…It seems to me that the Visual Novel just stops everything so the characters can have "romantic moments (you know what I am talking about)", which really makes no sense given the situation a lot of these people are put in.
Just look at the past few episodes. One episode was nothing but Shiro and Archer standing around and talking, and in the previous episode they did fight a little bit, but would continually stop so they could talk some more.

And yes, Shiro and Saber's date was important for character development. Shiro was trying to get Saber have fun for once but Saber's singleminded duty focused mentallity caused some problems. When they have their big fight and Shiro tells her to do whatever, all she can do is stand there because she's never thought for herself before.

Kind of the same deal in UBW where Rin drags Shiro and Saber out on a date to get Shiro to have some fun for once.
Soma Taozi wrote:And I have no idea what you are talking about a 'whimper.' The summoning of massive swords to throw at Shirou, mixed with the emiya theme (omg, I think I am starting to get the love for that song), and the lighting of the Blade Works with clear blue skies was great. Better than the movie where Shirou’s responses were, “Right will always defeat wrong!” Which isn’t really an answer to what Archer was saying; whereas in this version, Shirou’s answers to Archer make sense and explain why Archer gives up. And although it was less flashy and quick, I found the meaning behind the artwork in the finale between Shirou and Archer far more dramatic and emotional.
Guess I just don't find "guy runs at stationary target while avoiding attacks" to be as exciting as "two opponents locked in a sword fight to the death."

The dub of the movie isn't that great in terms of line choices. But in japanese all three versions use the same lines word for word. So no, Shiro's answer here doesn't make more sense because it's the same answer he's always given: "Give up, your life will suck!" "No! I'll do it anyways!" The reason Shiro wins is his determination, not his rhetoric.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Raikoh » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:56 pm

The idea of standing around and talking is just because they wanted to take the scene that was the climax of UBW and adapt it in its entirety. There was very little description of the fight and having to give it the focus when the fight wasn't even the main conflict in the scene is the debate. Focusing heavily on the fight wouldn't necessarily enhance the scene and would just distract from the important parts.

And heck, even though I HATE the idea that Archer, starved of mana as he is, would summon UBW in this scene for no reason (since it makes no sense), I can say I LOVED the artistic choice of having the blue skies encroach on Archer's UBW in the end. Plus the reaction shot that lets you get the idea as it was presented in the novel, that even when he could kill Shirou, Archer is so stunned by his resolve that he can't win the fight? The DEEN version just made it look like Shirou was stronger/more skilled in the end, which goes against the purpose. And the EMIYA? Loved it.

As for the women thing, misconception. Nasu said he somewhat regrets how he handled Saber in the Fate route, since he said it was necessary for her to fall in love, but the idea of a noble king falling for a high schooler seemed a bit farfetched, so Shirou's constant reminder of "you're a woman" was meant to remind the reader, and the entire point of the route was about Saber remembering her humanity, starting with the fact that she isn't JUST a king. The other routes have Shirou not even think of things like "women shouldn't fight." UBW has him dealing with Rin, who he can't help but think of as his superior in every way (in a scene from the VN, this includes the one thing he takes pride in: cooking) and HF has Shirou ask for Rider's help without a second's hesitation.

As for the VN tracks, the big thing here is that the VN needed to make the music good and memorable, since the viewer would be hearing it for HOURS in the average playthrough, and if it doesn't have voice acting (the original release didn't) then it will be the only thing the reader is hearing. An anime adaptation doesn't need to really do that as much. Unfortunately this also means that they don't focus as much on ensuring the music is top-notch. But even Prisma Illya had more remixes of original VN tracks than UBW did (many of which are mixed a LOT so they are barely even recognizable and just give me a sense of "I swear I've heard this in the novel"), and I love the Prisma Illya soundtrack - both the new stuff and the remixes.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by SonicSP » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:13 pm

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... ed/.110524

New teaser trailer for Heaven's Feel though it's locked to Japan. Also belatedly found out that it's been converted into a three film series, which is way better than a single movie to cover Heaven's Feel. That must have slipped by me over the last ten months.

Personally glad they're not bringing back Fate Unlimited Blade Works' music composer, I honestly really
really didn't like it (to put it mildly) and my opinions on anime in-series music are usually either neutral or great, rarely do I take an active dislike of one.

I much prefer Unlimited Blade Works as a route but I'm very excited for this. The wait between movies will be a pain but hopefully they pull it off great.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Imperial » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:37 pm

It's not ufotable doing them, but we are also getting a Fate/Apocrypha adaptation by A-1 and a confirmation of Fate/Extra: Last Encore by Shaft in 2017.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Henyo » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:50 am

i started the Fate series with the DEEN entry. say what you will about it. i liked this adaptation. fast forward a few years and lots of surfing, i learned a lot more about the franchise. i really liked the concept of using figures from history as the servants. that said, who is the most obscure servant to appear in the series thus far? any chance of them being from the Philippines? XD

BTW, which of these new entries shows the most promise? outside of the ones that will adapt the original VN's routes.
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