ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Raikoh » Sat May 09, 2015 1:42 pm

Based on my interpretation, and their dialogue at the start of day 14, I'd say
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Archer's ultimate goal isn't to kill Shirou, that's his backup plan. In Fate, all of the discussions with Archer aren't very hostile and Archer actually saves Shirou in Heaven's Feel - AND in UBW (twice during the Gilgamesh fight!). Archer's true goal is to get Shirou to back away from his ideals, or at least get a more firm grasp of what he's getting himself into (which is why he's content at the end of UBW - he realizes that he taught Shirou an important lesson even if he's still going to stick to his guns) and if he can't do that then he plans on killing him. My thoughts are that he knows that Shirou will suffer if SOMETHING doesn't change in history and his goal is to prevent that. If he can't, then he'll deliver a mercy killing.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by SonicSP » Sat May 09, 2015 3:14 pm

Raikoh wrote:Based on my interpretation, and their dialogue at the start of day 14, I'd say
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Archer's ultimate goal isn't to kill Shirou, that's his backup plan. In Fate, all of the discussions with Archer aren't very hostile and Archer actually saves Shirou in Heaven's Feel - AND in UBW (twice during the Gilgamesh fight!). Archer's true goal is to get Shirou to back away from his ideals, or at least get a more firm grasp of what he's getting himself into (which is why he's content at the end of UBW - he realizes that he taught Shirou an important lesson even if he's still going to stick to his guns) and if he can't do that then he plans on killing him. My thoughts are that he knows that Shirou will suffer if SOMETHING doesn't change in history and his goal is to prevent that. If he can't, then he'll deliver a mercy killing.
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There's a possibility that you're right but I don't think the Gilgamesh UBW example is a good one since that happened after he resolved his issues with Shirou. Even if he had the ultimate goal of killing Shirou before then, he already dropped it by then since he remembered his ideals again.
In any case, killing Shirou was his goal at the church as we can see from his actions. Yet he chose to go after Caster and Kuzuki before anyone even realized he was there. It's worse after we take into account that as Caster's ally and Servant; she would be expecting him to do this so nobody would have really batted an eye over it. If we take into account his injuries/magical-energy depletion from Lancer, that makes the decision even worse off than before.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Amion » Sat May 09, 2015 10:15 pm

I agree with Sonic. His behavior isn't working here. I wondered about it before, but only because I thought at first that he was actually somehow still loyal to Rin and this whole thing was a sham. Turns out that if his goals this adaption really are to kill Shiriou, then the staff have made a bit of a blunder as far as I'm concerned. The only way I could see it is if they're making Archer out to be a cruel and arrogant figure, which so far hasn't been the impression, at least not enough to warrant meaningless betrayal.

Then again, let's analyze the situation a little more: What are Archer's concerns aside from Shirou's fate? If he kills Shirou first, then Rin will most likely die. Archer is still within Caster's influence in life. If she orders Rin killed or even uses Rin's grief at Shirou's demise to heal and then strike back and kill Rin, it's Archer's loss, his fault or not. Does he really wish her dead? So far he's shown to still care about her. Not to mention that having killed Shirou, that means he must then face Caster later if he desires to save Rin or escape Rule Breaker's effects. Basically my reasoning is this: even if his wish for fighting in the war is fulfilled, that doesn't mean he stops being Caster's slave unto victory or death.

I seem to recall Archer and Caster not hitting it off well at all during their encounter at Ryuudou Temple, no? Would Archer, for all his issues with being turned into a tool, want to be used as one by Caster to achieve victory in the war? Disregarding Rin's life it looks like Archer would have reason to kill the bigger threat first: Caster.

Thus, he's confronted with the choice of A: kill Shirou. If this happens, Rin might easily die. He could attack Caster later, but would be faced with a potential attack from Rin (however unlikely due to sheer emotional shock) and lose the element of surprise, Caster now being aware of his presence. Caster's master (his name just flew out of my head, sorry) never trusted him and would also potentially be a threat. He might save Rin, but Caster would live through his betrayal, and counter it accordingly. Assuming he even gets to Rin before she or her master do.

B: Kill Caster first so Rule Breaker disappears and frees him temporarily, giving him the opportunity to save Rin from any real threat from the get go, and ready himself for the confrontation against mini him. Results are Caster dies suddenly from a treachery she never expected. Rin and Shirou get shocked enough so they don't interfere at first. The only consequence is he loses the element of surprise. Still, it's the lesser of two threats that remains either way. So he thinks.

That's a way of looking at it, might be what they were going for. Might not. Thoughts?
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by SonicSP » Sat May 09, 2015 10:36 pm

Saving Rin is probably the closest to a rationalization for his actions that I can buy plus an overestimation of his own abilities.

Still, I find this a little weak willed from Archer considering the sheer amount of stuff he has done just to get this chance. It's pretty much the whole reason he joined with Caster to begin with.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Raikoh » Sun May 10, 2015 1:56 am

If you want to go for a simple one-answer reason, then yeah, you could say that Archer is heavily motivated by wanting to prevent unnecessary bloodshed. Except the thing is that a lot of characters are very multi-faceted and it's difficult to draw singular reasons for specific events.

One example is I remember someone wondering why Archer didn't
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spam Gae Bolg on Berserker early on to kill him off. He HAD Gae Bolg available to him at the time. Even if he didn't have it before the Holy Grail War, he would have gotten it during his first fight with Lancer. Before you say anything about UBW not being able to copy it because it's not a sword: UBW copied Rho Aias, which is a shield.

The first reason is mana. While Archer can project Gae Bolg, it's not a SWORD and thus requires more magic for him to pull out of UBW.
The second reason is that it's a risky move. Assuming he had his memory, which is likely in ALL the routes - as evidenced by his knowing about the situation with Shirou in Heaven's Feel - he would know that Berserker has God Hand and Gae Bolg would need to hit him 12 times. That's 12 times of getting into melee range with Berserker.
The third reason is probably the MAIN reason, and that's Ilya. Archer has a STRONG connection to Ilya, stronger than even Shirou's from Fate or Heaven's Feel routes. There is no way he would ever kill Berserker so early on and leave Ilya out to dry, likely to be killed.
tl;dr there are a lot of reasons for actions and you really gotta think about them. Taking characterization from all three routes into consideration is very important. How many times did Archer have an opportunity for directly or indirectly causing Shirou to die in Fate and Heaven's Feel? Yet he never placed a priority on that since he liked the way things were proceeding in a way he liked (especially HF).
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It should ALSO be pointed out that were Archer's only goal was to kill Shirou, he could've done so easily in their fight in Einzbern castle. The only reason he didn't was because he gets stunned and hesitant when seeing Shirou's resolve/GAR. It's why some don't even consider that a "fight" but more of a "debate."
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Amion » Sun May 10, 2015 10:29 pm

True. And by this episode Archer looks more like an old softie. Gil, of course, sees right through it. "Faker." Ah, Gil. You make us laugh and cause all those silly Gary Stus to blush with envy.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by SonicSP » Mon May 11, 2015 10:40 pm

Raikoh wrote:Based on my interpretation, and their dialogue at the start of day 14, I'd say
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Archer's ultimate goal isn't to kill Shirou, that's his backup plan. In Fate, all of the discussions with Archer aren't very hostile and Archer actually saves Shirou in Heaven's Feel - AND in UBW (twice during the Gilgamesh fight!). Archer's true goal is to get Shirou to back away from his ideals, or at least get a more firm grasp of what he's getting himself into (which is why he's content at the end of UBW - he realizes that he taught Shirou an important lesson even if he's still going to stick to his guns) and if he can't do that then he plans on killing him. My thoughts are that he knows that Shirou will suffer if SOMETHING doesn't change in history and his goal is to prevent that. If he can't, then he'll deliver a mercy killing.
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There was something in this theory that I thought felt a little off so I went back to the VN to reconfirm some information. Specifically the part in UBW right before their fight where Archer states why he wants to kill Shirou, which is so he could erase himself.

First off it's probably a good idea to go back to how the universe in Fate/Nasuverse works. It works under what quantum physicists today calls the "Many Worlds Theory" which is different from the linear timeline or Copenhagen Interpretation. Basically it means that the world splits into many splitting divergent points into many different outcomes and results. We know this because of the Gemsword used in HF that works by harnessing a small amount of mana from the same space but across an infinite number of parallel timelines.

In this framework, whatever happens to present Shirou would not normally affect Archer because there are many Shirous that would split off and become many things which include Archer. Archer is just one branch and technically speaking, is not time traveling in the same way that Saber currently is from her point of near death in the past.

Saber herself have stated in the scene prior to the fight that killing Shirou isn't going to revert Archer. Archer then states that his hope was that a "same person" killing that "same person" in the past will create a paradox effect that would be strong enough to force the World to erase from his hellish existence as a Counter Guardian. It is a bet and a long shot that may not even work due to the nature of the universe but it is his only hope of ending his existence.

In this sense, Archer's goal (prior to returning to the light side during the fight) was never for Shirou's sake of going to a better path or a mercy killing but to save himself because he is suffering in hell. Certainly he engages in intellectual debate with himself sometimes during the route but he has shown in that scene prior to the fight that he really really wants to "save" himself in the route. This would explain why he never let Caster kill Rin and Shirou when he first turned because he "needs" to do the deed himself. His dialogue prior to the Shirou I believe states his intentions clearly even if he is actually quite inept at doing it IMO throughout the route.

I do however agree that this doesn't fit well with his other two routes (but does for with the rest of UBW, since Shirou renewed Archer's spirit to continue existing) but I'm beginning to think it's more and more due to fallacy of the writing more than anything. I do not think however that killing Shirou is merely backup plan; certainly not in UBW anyways. It cannot be just a backup plan because it's a totally different type of causality effect than what he states he wanted. It seems to be the goal because it is the only thing that would save him which he kinda admits is something he really wants, but he gave up after seeing Shirou's determination to fight against all odds and that gave him the determination to fight on in his life too.

Archer's memories are stated to be a bit jumbled due to incomplete summoning I think it's even be stated somewhere in the VN that he doesn't even have his memories of current Shirou anymore. Assuming this to be true rather than an excuse, it could possibly wreck all sorts of havoc with his personality across the routes due to different things happening. It is hard to say for sure. Maybe Saber just literally knocked some frickin sense into him in the Fate route (the main divergent point with UBW) while the threat of a huge unspeakable evil like the Real Holy Grail in HF forced him to abandoned his wish for salvation and focus on stopping it instead by giving his powers to Shirou.

He has shown even in UBW that he isn't beyond reasoning to get away from his goal but at the same time he also made it pretty clear in UBW that he hates his existence as a Counter Guardian and really really wants out, even going so far as to betraying Rin in UBW just to do it. Archer goes to the light side in all three routes (IE he gives up his wish) including UBW so I'm more on the camp of figuring what are the different things that made him go that decision path in all three routes and I'm currently interpreting it it's as SaberSlash/Mano-a-Mano/RealDarkGrail plus a little bit of jumbled memories.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Raikoh » Tue May 12, 2015 4:53 pm

Those are all some legitimately good points, and I honestly forgot about the contradiction idea. One thing I can't agree on is HF, though.
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Mostly because Archer's methods don't line up with what he did there, not exactly. Well, they match pretty well but if his only goal is to try and erase his existence, then he could've killed Shirou when he had the chance and let the Counter Guardians clean up the Holy Grail when it went nuts. He's an opportunist, and I think that if you take into account the other routes then only in UBW does he have the motivation to kill Shirou since that's the only route where it's a viable option to him. Otherwise his role is more like a mentor figure, with the idea of "save as many people as possible" bleeding over into his own alternate selves by trying to save as many "Shirous" as possible. Going back to the opportunist thing, that would also mean that if he's given the choice between killing a Servant and killing Shirou, he's going to go for the Servant because they are (with the exception of Saber) ending lives and a sneak attack would make a noticeable difference in those types of fights, whereas he's a Servant and could easily kill a normal human like Shirou nine times out of ten.

It has been confirmed that Archer's past is not from any one of the visual novel routes. He mentions losing an arm the first time he used projection, he had a much closer relationship with Ilya that ended a year after his Holy Grail War when she essentially rotted away, and there was a different Archer in his Holy Grail War. There's no way to tell how much of his statement about losing his memories may or may not have been true, but I personally think he was lying through his teeth when he said that.

Also, there's the fact that Archer COULDN'T attack Shirou from in between the first Caster battle and when he got hit by Rule Breaker and he never got a good chance to do so before the Ryudou temple incident since Shirou was almost always with either Rin or Saber. In the interim, Archer was acting as Caster's accomplice. There was only one day between his two betrayals, meaning he didn't exactly have a chance to go out and try an ambush. If he did that, it would've no doubt made Caster not trust him in the least for going back on his request to keep them alive so quickly and probably dispose of him right away.

I don't think it's a possibility to say Archer looks incompetent at his goal of killing Shirou unless you look at things from a glance, but there are a lot of details and the usages of Command Seals likely is something that is easy to overlook.
Unrelated, but I'm not sure how I feel about a redesigned Saber under Rin. The ponytail is fine, but the right gauntlet just looks awkward, like a funnel. I don't know how much the outfit changed but that gauntlet stuck out like a sore thumb.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Amion » Tue May 12, 2015 10:18 pm

I'm thinking the funnel is from Fate Zero, isn't it? It looks familiar to me.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by SonicSP » Fri May 15, 2015 10:31 am

I swear I posted this yesterday after I wrote it, but apparrently not so here goes:

Just watched the episode. This one felt rather long for some reason. Things seems to be moving on quite fast, maybe even faster than I remember it being.

The scene with the Unlimited Blade Works really felt a bit underwhelming but it was nice to see all those flying swords. But really I mostly got a meh feeling from it. Shirou's casting all those blades should be an impressive moment but I never really got the feeling.

Looks like we're itching closer and closer to Archer's confrontation with Shirou. There should be around eight episodes left perhaps?

I'm really hoping to see Kanshou and Bakuya Overedge in it. And the EMIYA song, but I high doubt it (one can always daydream).

==============

The more I think about it, the more I feel like I feel like conceding that StayNight doesn't work as an anime very well. It's decent enough, the original anime was enough to get me into the series and I enjoyed it immensely when I first watched it but I guess I can't enjoy the adaptations so far anywhere near as much as the VN. I know the different mediums have their strengths and weaknesses plus adaptations more often than not are nowhere near perfection but I feel like it could have done better. Perhaps knowing and enjoying the source material is my barrier to enjoying this further since I feel like the story is much better with Shirou's monologue in addition to some descriptions of all the magic that's happening.

I really feel the anime does best in fights and actions scenes for obvious reasons but they're too few and far between. Even then, I even have to say that I feel sometimes the VN handles the fights better. I don't know, the way at they use the sound effects, transitional graphics, music, voices and pictures is so damn awesome and well put together it's amazing. It's not exactly a first time thing either, I could go and open it right now and I'll enjoy some if not most of the fights more than I did in the anime. Sometimes the feeling of intensity is even better I might add. This is not to say there haven't been good animated fights, it's just that maybe I was hoping I'd be more impressed given the medium should actually do better for this sort of thing.

There are moments where it has improved upon the VN though like with Caster's previous Master and the Ilya/Berserker episode, so I'll give it credit for that. I'm still kinda hoping they would expand more details on Archer's life that led to his thinking. They've already given the framework in the recent episode, so maybe they can expand more details than the VN did.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Soma Taozi » Sat May 16, 2015 5:17 pm

I have never read/played the visual novel and perhaps that is why I am enjoying UBW more than those who have. I often see people who have gone through the source material disliking the adaption, despite how I fail to see how any of this material will ever get a better one. Seriously, this is ufotable we are talking about...I feel a lot of people need to remember how lucky the Fate franchise is! If half the manga I was into got this kind of treatment, I would have a heart-attack. Seriously...why are Fate fans so spoiled? ;P

Maybe you are right Sonic, maybe this material isn't suited for anime...but I don't agree with that, considering how I am enjoying the show to the fullest (and am by far not the only one). Not saying popularity equates to quality, but there is a lot to like about UBW.

Oh and on a different note, they used the Emiya theme this episode. I have no idea what that OST is, but a lot of people were excited about it and were freaking out, so I guess that somehow makes the show better? Seriously, the number of people I have seen complaining about the lack of the VN ost makes me wonder if it is the greatest music ever compiled. But then this is the Fate franchise...so every little thing is hyped to the utmost.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sat May 16, 2015 11:19 pm

The main problem with this adaptation is that there isn't enough content for 26 episodes. 13 would be enough to cover the route, but instead they pad it out with extra content and super slow pacing.

And yeah, Emiya is one of the more famous tracks from the game. I heard too little of it to judge this version, but it was never going to top it's usage in the movie anyways (link has spoilers for this show if you haven't seen the movie already).
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Raikoh » Sun May 17, 2015 4:39 pm

It isn't that I dislike UBW, far from it, I think that as an adaptation it is doing a spectacular job. It definitely seems to be friendly to newcomers by doing its best to flesh everything out while keeping all the major scenes intact, and even tossing in some extra stuff both for the sake of backstory and also for established fans. I may find Saber the least interesting of the three heroines, but I do like how she's had a decent amount of attention in the UBW anime without stealing the spotlight from the main characters of the route.

It's just that people who have played the novel all the way through there are a lot of little things that are taken for granted. Most of the soundtrack of UBW is overall forgettable. Outside of the two (so far, hopefully there'll be a third, more hype one) Emiya remixes, it has used none of the tracks from the original soundtrack. I remember one of the most notable scenes from the route is when the first major change occurs and you actually fight Berserker, complete with Burst Up playing in the background (in Realta Nua). The track never played in the first route, so having it suddenly play makes it stand out all the more and the scene is more memorable for it. And the Ilya scenes using Die Lorelei were made all the more heartwrenching because of how well the track is used. I can't watch the original "Berserker, You're Strong" scene without bawling like a crybaby and a lot of that is because how perfectly it was put together. I teared up in the anime, but it wasn't nearly as touching and I can't help but feel that the music being just a bland piano piece was a part of that.

The music is serviceable, but quickly forgettable, and that's the problem. The music is just sort of there. It doesn't enhance the scenes like it could (and did, in the original novel). For example, many people have taken it upon themselves to add in the original OST to some of these scenes. That's always been the problem with the music in adaptations of Fate/Stay Night, I think. Cutting something like Burst Up is a weird choice, but cutting memorable recurring tracks like Church on the Hill, Clashing Souls, or, one of my personal favorites, Odayaka na Mainichi just seems odd, considering it'd make the soundtrack better with almost no effort.

And the OP and ED for S2 are really bad. Worst in the franchise so far, in my opinion. I'd have preferred they keep using Ideal White. Or This Illusion. Or HORIZON. I just don't like Aimer or Kalafina (okay I can stand Kalafina but every one of her songs sound the same).
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Soma Taozi » Sun May 17, 2015 7:26 pm

I guess this goes to different music tastes, which is always difficult to talk about.

I don't find any of the tracks from the VN that memorable or exciting; especially the Emiya theme, I do not understand what is so great about the track. Additionally, I cannot get ENOUGH of Aimer's Brave Shine...the ending sounds like stereotypical Kalafina so I agree with that (only a few times do I feel that Kalafina has branched out and done something memorable that doesn't sound like everything else they produced).

Anyway I love Brave Shine! I have rewatched the opening endlessly and cannot wait to purchase the single. Again, mileage will vary and Aimer is not for everyone, but the song is the best of the season imo.

Again, I guess that is what I come away from with UBW... that people's opinion on it will vary more then other shows this season. I don't see a lot of the problems with UBW, except that it was a little slow in its first 13 episodes; nevertheless, for me this second half has been excellent.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sun May 17, 2015 9:22 pm

Soma Taozi wrote:I don't find any of the tracks from the VN that memorable or exciting; especially the Emiya theme, I do not understand what is so great about the track.
A big factor is probably the scenes particular pieces accompanied. If it's a song that played during a super awesome or emotional scene, it's going to stand out more.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by SonicSP » Mon May 18, 2015 1:14 pm

Soma Taozi wrote:I have never read/played the visual novel and perhaps that is why I am enjoying UBW more than those who have. I often see people who have gone through the source material disliking the adaption, despite how I fail to see how any of this material will ever get a better one. Seriously, this is ufotable we are talking about...I feel a lot of people need to remember how lucky the Fate franchise is! If half the manga I was into got this kind of treatment, I would have a heart-attack. Seriously...why are Fate fans so spoiled? ;P

Maybe you are right Sonic, maybe this material isn't suited for anime...but I don't agree with that, considering how I am enjoying the show to the fullest (and am by far not the only one). Not saying popularity equates to quality, but there is a lot to like about UBW.
I think it's "okay" as an anime but not much more than that. It's just that it's nowhere near as great as the VN (or in this case, the UBW route of the VN) in my opinion and Fate Stay Night VN is one of my personal most favorite media that I've consumed, so I would expect quite a bit from the show. The relative problems of the previous Stay Night adaptations are also why I'm mentioning this, as this is the third adaptation attempt at it. Of course, I'm also of the opinion that the original anime is better but it had its fair of issues as well.

I'm also comparing it to similar shows like Fate Zero and Kara no Kyoukai, both of which are ufotable-made Nasuverse anime adaptations that I thought was great. I guess I was expecting something better from ufotable. Perhaps they did as best as they could with the source material, which was why I'm beginning to think the source material is the weak point (from a conversion perspective) as they have stuck really close to it. I think a lot of nuance and characterization on Shirou is lost without his monologues, and I think it makes him a lot less interesting to watch as a lead. They are also other things like what Raikoh mentioned earlier in the thread about the diffetent possible interpretations of Shinji being lost.

But at the end of the day, it is Fate. I'll watch it regardless of good or bad as it is one of my favorite IPs. If it was something else, I probably would have dropped it show by now. This is also not to say that I'm not glad the anime was made, as grading a show's content and being glad it was made are two seperate issues.
Soma Taozi wrote:Oh and on a different note, they used the Emiya theme this episode. I have no idea what that OST is, but a lot of people were excited about it and were freaking out, so I guess that somehow makes the show better? Seriously, the number of people I have seen complaining about the lack of the VN ost makes me wonder if it is the greatest music ever compiled. But then this is the Fate franchise...so every little thing is hyped to the utmost.
Personally, I don't think they need to use any music from the VN (save for Emiya, which I think is ubiquitous with a few scenes). The VN's music was good for the most part but it can be replaced by something if it's better.

The issue I have with UBW-TV's music is that I think it's terrible. I don't consider myself to be a big critic of music, most of the music I hear in anime is good to my ears and I don't think much more than that but UBW-TV is probably one of the few exceptions that I have experienced. I'll even go as far as saying that the background music pulls down the experience considerably for me and may be the biggest possible weakpoint of the adaptation of what is otherwise a show with high quality production values in other areas like animation.

The original Fate anime mostly used new background music and I thought it was pretty much made the right decisions on those areas. Even years later, I can still remember some of those original tunes. Both the VN and the original anime used great music in my opinion (can't remember how I felt about UBW-Movie's), and I just don't think UBW-TV's quality comes even close to that. Fate Zero's music was quite good as well.

UBW-TV's OPs are decent but unfortunately they're also not part of the main music experience as they exist out of the show for the most part. The EDs are not good in my opinion save for the one they use at the end of Ilya's death episode. These can be important to the enjoyment to some extent but not as important as the music that plays during the show.
Destiny_Gundam wrote:A big factor is probably the scenes particular pieces accompanied. If it's a song that played during a super awesome or emotional scene, it's going to stand out more.
Yeah, I would agree with this. Emiya is a good song but it is when it's combined with specific scenes does it become legendary. I also thought the actual music fits the themes scenes quite well, especially Shirou's projection efforts and his will for his ideal.

It has also sort of became my favorite comeback song over time. The song is nicely named as it symbolizes him, his persistence and preserverence quite well.

It reminds me a little of Metal Gear Rising Revengence's Boss themes. They are decent songs by themselves but they become great when inserted into their specific individual battles.

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Raikoh
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Raikoh » Mon May 25, 2015 1:09 am

I was really glad for the awesome mix of EMIYA that this episode had... For all of twenty seconds. Can't wait to actually get a chance to hear the full version. Then we have more Aimer needing a glass of water. Ugh.

Otherwise, I really think that the episode did a great job aside from one elephant in the room. I wasn't expecting the fight with Archer to take up three episodes, but they clearly want to do what the movie didn't and show just how far above Shirou Archer is, and that it's only Shirou's "-90% damage when under 30% HP and above 130 Will" level resolve that lets him stand a chance. Arguably it's even more one-sided in this version, even. I also think it was a bit trippy to have so many cutaways to other stuff where the action completely stops, but I liked the touch since it keeps things visually interesting. I don't get why both the adaptations of the Archer/Shirou battle have Archer use UBW. He's running low on mana, that's a plot point. Why does he have enough to use his Reality Marble for the sole purpose of making the scene more dramatic?

Though I don't know about other sources, but I think I got the "official" subs and they are pretty awful. You can just skip the rest of this post if you don't care about my issues with the translation (which I should've been able to tell at the "red = white" sub way back at the start was going to be SLOPPY). There's the obvious first time where they translated the wrong stanza of the UBW chant ("Karada wa tsurugi dekiteiru" always aligns with "I am the bone of my sword", but they used "Steel is my body". I don't even get how you can mess that up when it's the first line of the chant, unless someone saw "body" and "sword" and assumed...) And there's the thing of "Gizen" being used to translate out to "hypocrisy" which is completely wrong in this context (and come to think of it, I have yet to notice any context where it has worked for "hypocrisy". Literal translation of "Gizen" is "false good" which sometimes can apply to hypocrisy and is the "dictionary" translation of the phrase, but rarely if ever does "gizen" actually work in the context of "hypocrisy." Something like "self-righteous" is a more accurate translation). While I'm on the translation, I just don't like "ally of justice" when "superhero" sounds more natural and gets the idea across perfectly - mainly a nitpick because nobody who speaks English says "ally of justice". Eh. I can complain about translations all I want.
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monster
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by monster » Mon May 25, 2015 2:00 am

Raikoh wrote:While I'm on the translation, I just don't like "ally of justice" when "superhero" sounds more natural and gets the idea across perfectly - mainly a nitpick because nobody who speaks English says "ally of justice". Eh. I can complain about translations all I want.
The term superhero is often associated with some kind of super power. So I suppose it depends on whether you want to emphasize the power or the justice/good guy part.

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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by Soma Taozi » Mon May 25, 2015 10:48 am

Thank you for clearing up the "Steel is my body" bit Raikoh. I watched the episode and was confused as well on why Shirou would say that...I know that is part of the full chant, but since Archer never used it earlier, I had no idea why Shirou would say it.

Overall I really enjoyed the episode. And I loved the Aimer part...massive fan of her after all, but I can see how that might annoy some people if they don't like her voice.
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Re: ufotable to Produce New Fate/stay night Project

Post by SonicSP » Mon May 25, 2015 12:14 pm

monster wrote:
Raikoh wrote:While I'm on the translation, I just don't like "ally of justice" when "superhero" sounds more natural and gets the idea across perfectly - mainly a nitpick because nobody who speaks English says "ally of justice". Eh. I can complain about translations all I want.
The term superhero is often associated with some kind of super power. So I suppose it depends on whether you want to emphasize the power or the justice/good guy part.
Just "hero" sounds better I think. Shirou seems to be more interested in doing the right things regardless of one own's capabilities as evidence by him going into situations that are usually beyond his abilities. Kiritsugu saving him was an act that did not require superpowers, so the ideal seems to be just saving people.

"Ally of justice" sounds needlessly convoluted.

While we're at it, I noticed that they changed Archer's plan of erasing his own existence in the previous episode from the visual novel. Over here in the UBW-TV, it's to "kill Shirou's spirit/enthusiasm" in hopes that the world would erase himself. In the visual novel, he wanted to kill Shirou with his own hands to cause a possible paradox effect of one person killing his another of his own self in the last in hopes that the World would erase himself. Both seem to be long shots in terms of probability of success.

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