The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

[Zeonista]

No, Flast does specifically say that it's during a Federation occupation of Side 3. And remember, Side 3 is the only place where "Zeon civilians" would be living anyways - I don't think they ever sent civilians to live in occupied territories on Earth.

Ah I see. I always got the impression that Zeon sent some people to live on Earth since we had Garma Zabi's little royal shindigs in MSG and all. Haven't watched MSG in forever though, so the details are really fuzzy there too.

But yeah, like you said the Federation occupying Side 3 for a period of time isn't that big a retcon, and wouldn't be unprecedented either. At the end of WWII the US and SU occupied Germany and the US occupied Japan until an official peace treaty was signed 7 years later.

Kratos was right, the EFSF did temporarily occupy Side 3 after the end of the One year War. Their presence is confirmed by the ZMF & Principality elements mainly rallying at Axis instead of Zum City or another colony inside Side 3. Presumably the occupation role was to make sure that the Principality was well and truly abandoned, to permit the new Republic of Zeon government to be established, and to allow repatriation of Federation POWs from Side 3 & ZMF POWs from Earth and the space battlefields. Ecole du Ciel mentioned a Federation & Titans presence inside Side 3, but whether or not that made the new Republic the Federation's dogs would be a matter of perspective.

The Principality never made a permanent settlement of Side 3 colonists on Earth during the One Year War. Any organization or community of Zeon supporters on earth were Earthnoids themselves who chose to support Zeon for their own reasons. Now it the OYW had ended with a Principality victory and a Zabi in charge, well, that might have been different. Some players of Gihren's Ambition might be able to contribute possible scenarios.

Ehh...I wouldn't be so sure about that. Even in our current day, those qualifiers aren't applied with any certainty.

Quite possibly so! The "what's in a name" game of political terminology or generally overused words in the popular news media these days irks me no end. Terms like "terrorist" and "terrorism" get flung around a lot with little context or definition. Like Inigo Montoya, I feel compelled upon occasion to point out that the word used does not mean what you think it means. So what I said is definitely a YMMV post.

When we apply this to Zeon, it may be best to get more granular and not treat everything called Zeon the same For example, there's a harder case to be made for Neo Zeon/Axis being a terrorist organization than for the Zeon Remnants and the Sleeves. It might in fact be more precise to say that by the time of Gundam UC, the "Zeon" that the Federation is hunting were once legitimate state level actors who have faded into terrorist groups. Keep in mind that many present day terrorist groups make it their goal to employ enough influence and intimidation to become legitimate state actors, which is precisely what these Zeon groups would like.

[/quote]
This paragraph alone shows more consideration of the applied term than The New York Times has done recently, at the least! It's something I might expect to see in-story on a pro-AEUG LAN BBS site in a Side colony. After all, good dissidents must provide context, because the establishment's mouthpieces aren't going to bother!

[Kratos]

...there's a harder case to be made for Neo Zeon/Axis being a terrorist organization than for the Zeon Remnants and the Sleeves.

Agreed. The actions of both Neo Zeon factions fit what I posted better than those of the Sleeves or Remnants (although the attack on Dakar was arguably terrorism). However...

The Zeon Remnants in the anime & most of the manga actually fit the current international conventions for lawful combatants. They have organization, uniforms, military vehicles, a recognizable device, and claim to representation of a nation, whether it is acknowledged by any other government or not. The retention of ZMF trappings and military-style operations is their claim to legitimacy; skulking about and planting bombs & back-shooting civil servants is not their forte. So the label of "terrorist" is a political slur and a convenient dodge for the Federation's rulers.

Imagine if a heavily armed group emerged claiming to be the Imperial Japanese Army. They'd have no grounds to any claim of being the military of modern day Japan, and the Empire no longer exists, so it would be incredibly difficult to see them as a legitimate military force. So it goes for the remnants, vis-a-vis the Republic and the nonexistent Principality. As for the Sleeves, they're just Neo Zeon remnants (who even officially still use the name Neo Zeon), and are still a paramilitary organization unattached to any existing government. I think we can forgive the Federation military for not reviewing their status as terrorists just because they haven't attacked any civlians lately; to use another real-world analogy, if al-Qaeda collapsed but then reformed as a military group under the same name and using the same symbolism and imagery, would you expect the governments of the world to consider them Not Terrorists all of a sudden?

Of course, it's pretty shifty of the Feds to avoid stamping them out just so there can be a scapegoat, and I agree that that's awfully "convenient." But labeling them as terrorists is, on its own, kind of warranted.

[latenlazy]

Ehh...I wouldn't be so sure about that. Even in our current day, those qualifiers aren't applied with any certainty.

Quite possibly so! The "what's in a name" game of political terminology or generally overused words in the popular news media these days irks me no end. Terms like "terrorist" and "terrorism" get flung around a lot with little context or definition. Like Inigo Montoya, I feel compelled upon occasion to point out that the word used does not mean what you think it means. So what I said is definitely a YMMV post.

When we apply this to Zeon, it may be best to get more granular and not treat everything called Zeon the same For example, there's a harder case to be made for Neo Zeon/Axis being a terrorist organization than for the Zeon Remnants and the Sleeves. It might in fact be more precise to say that by the time of Gundam UC, the "Zeon" that the Federation is hunting were once legitimate state level actors who have faded into terrorist groups. Keep in mind that many present day terrorist groups make it their goal to employ enough influence and intimidation to become legitimate state actors, which is precisely what these Zeon groups would like.

This paragraph alone shows more consideration of the applied term than The New York Times has done recently, at the least! It's something I might expect to see in-story on a pro-AEUG LAN BBS site in a Side colony. After all, good dissidents must provide context, because the establishment's mouthpieces aren't going to bother!

That political science degree was not had in vain!

...there's a harder case to be made for Neo Zeon/Axis being a terrorist organization than for the Zeon Remnants and the Sleeves.

Agreed. Both Neo Zeon factions fit what I posted better than the Sleeves or Remnants (although the attack on Dakar was arguably terrorism). However...

I meant harder as in more difficult. I would say Neo Zeon is probably less terrorist than the Sleeves are. They have territory (Axis), a civilian population, recently lost legitimacy as a representative body for Side 3, and are clearly not just a military arm. Very different from the Remnants and the sleeves.

[Kratos]

I would say Neo Zeon is probably less terrorist than the Sleeves are. They have territory (Axis), a civilian population, recently lost legitimacy as a representative body for Side 3, and are clearly not just a military arm. Very different from the Remnants and the sleeves.

Less of a terrorist organization, maybe, but definitely a concretely terrorist STATE (see the Dublin drop). Meanwhile, Char's Neo Zeon would seem to me more of a terrorist organization; their only territory is their fleet, and they negotiate almost exclusively through terrorist tactics.

[EDIT: This thread has me thinking a lot, so this post in particular got changed around a few times. Apologies!]

[Dark Duel]

Oh, unquestionably, both Haman's and Char's Neo-Zeon were terrorist movements - especially the latter. However much you want to quibble over the distinction between "terrorist organization" or "terrorist state" and which one each is, the bottom line in my opinion - the important part - is the "terrorist" part.
DITTO the Delaz Fleet, by the way. At least in my opinion.

The original Principality of Zeon, most certainly not. I think the most obvious comparison where that is concerned is so self-evident I don't even need to say it, do I?
The Delaz Fleet? Absolutely.
Neo-Zeon? Yup. Both of them.
The Remnants and the Sleeves? See "Delaz Fleet", above.

Ah I see. I always got the impression that Zeon sent some people to live on Earth since we had Garma Zabi's little royal shindigs in MSG and all.

I feel I must point out that Garma Zabi was not a civilian; he was a military officer. IIRC, Garma was the commander of the Principality of Zeon forces on Earth; Anyone else not wearing a Zeon uniform would have been Earthnoids who for their own reasons sided with the invaders, as has already been mentioned.

[latenlazy]

Ah I see. I always got the impression that Zeon sent some people to live on Earth since we had Garma Zabi's little royal shindigs in MSG and all.

I feel I must point out that Garma Zabi was not a civilian; he was a military officer. IIRC, Garma was the commander of the Principality of Zeon forces on Earth; Anyone else not wearing a Zeon uniform would have been Earthnoids who for their own reasons sided with the invaders.

But I presumed all the fine dressed up people during Garma's birthday party were civilians.

I would say Neo Zeon is probably less terrorist than the Sleeves are. They have territory (Axis), a civilian population, recently lost legitimacy as a representative body for Side 3, and are clearly not just a military arm. Very different from the Remnants and the sleeves.

Less of a terrorist organization, maybe, but definitely a concretely terrorist STATE. This is especially true for Char's Neo Zeon, which negotiates almost exclusively through terrorist tactics, but it applies to Haman's as well (see the Dublin drop).

Good delineation. I forgot to include that possibility.

[Kratos]

The original Principality of Zeon, most certainly not. I think the most obvious comparison where that is concerned is so self-evident I don't even need to say it, do I?

Not at all

However, what about the One-Week-War Blitz, where civilian populations were wiped out en masse to pressure the Federation into surrendering? I would call that state terrorism, at least to some degree.

[Dark Duel]

Not really. Were their methods horrific? Absolutely.
I would describe the One-Week Battle as more of a rapid dominance operation carried out by a government that was largely led by a genocidal maniac.

But I presumed all the fine dressed up people during Garma's birthday party were civilians.

Which is true, as far as it goes. But they were not Zeon civilians. They were locals who supported/went along with the Principality's regime, probably all of them wealthy, upper-class individuals (the proverbial "one percent", if you will) who collaborated with Zeon - Think Phillippe Pétain, for example.
It also probably helped that Garma was young, physically attractive, charismatic, and despite his parentage and beliefs apparently not a bad guy personally. Had it been that frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic Gihren calling the shots on Earth...

Just as an example, that blonde that Garma was so crazy about? Daughter of a local politician - IIRC the mayor of some or another city in North America(I want to say Seattle, but not sure)

[latenlazy]

But I presumed all the fine dressed up people during Garma's birthday party were civilians.

Which is true, as far as it goes. But they were not Zeon civilians.

And that's what I needed clarification on .

[Zeonista]

Yes, the rant was definitely YMMV, with apparently a lot of mileage being recorded.... Well at least it's kept things lively!

Kratos: By your example I see you have grasped the reality that while one is able to correctly block out a legal position on self-representation, achieving recognition by other parties of one's represented group may be another thing entirely! But as I've said, the term "terrorist" is loaded speech in the UC, a term that can be used to stifle discussion and limit solutions.

On a side note, my own terrorism class in PoliSci many years before latenlazy did make a case of noting state-sponsored terrorism, either directly (against their own citizens) or by proxy (against another state), which does not help in sorting things out in non-loaded terminology either. Mainly because the sort of state that would sponsor said terrorism is not the sort to worry about the situational ethics of making people do what they want, 'cause they're special. :p We can well imagine that the deadlock that occurs in Unicorn #6 can also be attributed to memories of they-said-but-they-did actions as well.

BTW I had initially expected less attention to the rant and more return from you regarding the composition of the Federation as a dramatic entity, if not necessarily a properly defined one.

latenlazy: Indeed, your thoughtful word-parsing would undoubtedly please your political science professors a great deal. Based on the recent discussion I believe we can agree that part of the Federation's difficulty in dealing with the various Zeon faction du jour is a lot of wasted time spent trying to determine the correct political wording they are going to agree to use when they determine the possibility of talking about the possible need to have non-military interactions with said Zeon faction!

Dark Duel: Full Frontal already has his talking points, there is no need to help him out by giving a convenient example of the stereotypical dismissive Federation member. But you do nicely underscore the unfortunate resolution of events at the end of the sixth Unicorn film.

Edit: Kratos isn't the only one having to revise his statements.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

The Zeon Remnants in the anime & most of the manga actually fit the current international conventions for lawful combatants. They have organization, uniforms, military vehicles, a recognizable device, and claim to representation of a nation, whether it is acknowledged by any other government or not. The retention of ZMF trappings and military-style operations is their claim to legitimacy; skulking about and planting bombs & back-shooting civil servants is not their forte.

Perhaps, but they're still undeniably guilty of war crimes. Being a fly on the wall of the truth and reconciliation commission after the One Year War (and Operation Stardust, both Neo Zeon wars, etc) would undoubtedly be an interesting experience. So perhaps they're not, technically, terrorists (though the legal and moral definition of "terrorist" is certainly something that can be debated nigh-endlessly), but "war criminal" isn't much of a step up.

It still takes two sides to have a war, and the Federation has been called on its living in a state of denial for 15 years concerning its role in enabling the One Year War and allowing the continuation of the accumulated tangle of fighting.

What role? The Federation set up the colonies, Side 3 declared independence because of Zeon Deikun's ideas that living in space was morally and philosophically superior to living on Earth, and the Federation effectively ignored them beyond slapping some economic sanctions on them (which, given than Island 3 colonies were explicitly designed to be entirely self-sufficient once constructed, is a bit like declaring a ban on petroleum exports to OPEC member states). The One Year War was, by all accounts we've been given, entirely unprovoked by the Federation -- "having a bunch of stuff that we want" is not considered legitimate casus belli by most people, much less a legitimate excuse for the genocide of half the human race.

In any case, you're sort of missing the point I'm making. I'm not saying that Unicorn turns the UC timeline on its head and makes Zeon the good guys and the Federation the bad guys. I'm saying that Unicorn invents things either entirely without support or actually contradicted by existing information in order to make the Federation looks exponentially worse than it has in any other work set in the UC timeline. The Federation's besetting sin has always been a failure to act swiftly and decisively to counter the threat -- and prevent the atrocities -- of the Zeon faction du jour. Unicorn instead suggests that the Federation was happy to let its soldiers rape and murder innocent Zeon civilians with impunity, which paints a rather different picture of the organization -- one unique to Unicorn, and immensely darker and less sympathetic than the original. That's my complaint about Unicorn, that it tries to retcon the Federation into something undoubtedly different than its original depiction.

But yeah, like you said the Federation occupying Side 3 for a period of time isn't that big a retcon, and wouldn't be unprecedented either. At the end of WWII the US and SU occupied Germany and the US occupied Japan until an official peace treaty was signed 7 years later.

The difference is that both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan surrendered unconditionally after their ability to make war had been effectively annihilated. Both nations were occupied in order to oversee the disarmament of their military and the dissolution of their governments. The end of the One Year War saw neither of these things happen to Zeon. Side 3 reverted to the Republic of Zeon (as opposed to the Principality) after the death of the last remaining adult Zabis during the Battle of A Baoa Qu, rather than the Principality being dissolved at the insistence of the Federation -- on Mark's timeline, for example, the entry for 01/01/0080 says that "The Earth Federation and the Republic of Zeon reach a peace agreement at the lunar city of Granada", and on 02/18/0080 "The Earth Federation and the Republic of Zeon approve the Treaty of Granada, formally concluding the One Year War. The treaty recognizes the independence of Side 3 and allows it to maintain its military forces."

So Side 3 declared itself a republic again as soon as the last of the Zabis (excepting Minerva, who was an infant at the time) were killed -- presumably the civil government wasn't as fired up about the glorious legacy of the Zabi familiy as the military was -- and then negotiated a peace treaty with the Federation that allowed them to maintain their independence and their military.

The relevant facts are that 1) Zeon didn't surrender; rather, they signed a peace treaty. 2) Zeon didn't cease to exist as a Principality at the Federation's insistence; rather, Side 3 declared themselves the Republic again as soon as the Zabis were out of the picture. 3) Zeon wasn't disarmed; rather, their military continued to exist as the armed forces of the Republic of Zeon.

Given that, the idea that the Federation occupied Side 3 for any length of time is... problematic, to say the least.

[Chris]

Ok guys, how about we just drop all this nonsense? The endless quote wars are starting up again about the same old crap we've been fighting over for years. Regardless of what any of you think about the Federation and Zeon or Unicorn's retcons, you're not going to convince anyone else to change their minds. Just agree to disagree and leave it be.

[Deacon Blues]

Prior to the end of the war, Degwin approved their Prime Minister to head to the moon to meet with a Federation representative. So essentially putting an end to the war was all but decided at this point. Whether it was Degwin that would have pushed for a republic or everything solely on the Prime Minister remains to be seen.

[domtropen]

Is that because he feared Gihren is going too far? For Degwin Gihren became more dangerous than even the fed?

I agree that discussing about the fed and zeek won't go anywhere

Spoiler

especially since some facts are conveniently forgotten, even with common real world examples around.

[ShadowCell]

passive-aggressively trying to continue the argument doesn't help either. drop it, guys.

[Zeonista]

Actually, at some point in the last couple of days while chatting back & forth with everyone, it suddenly struck me that with this coming movie the first century of the Universal Century was essentially finished as a dramatic meta-story line. I kind of knew it from the beginning, definitely from #2, but after reviewing movie #6 it really crashed down on me. The big struggle between Federation and Zeon that has made the Universal Century such interesting times to live in (as per the Chinese aphorism) since 1979 is going to be complete. Finished. Over. Done, end of story. Unlike the usual franchise, Gundam will close the book on its defining original story. Anything else that comes up will be in the same vein as The Unfinished Tales was to the Hobbit-LOTR connected tales & The Silmarillion. Extra stuff, nfity stuff, nooks-and-crannies stuff, but nothing to extend the old classics or break new ground on them.

And that is somewhat mighty to me, as a fan. i don't know anything else in such a final way, except when a favored author died and I knew that no more new books would be forthcoming. has any one else here felt that end-of-an-era vibe as well?

[latenlazy]

Actually, at some point in the last couple of days while chatting back & forth with everyone, it suddenly struck me that with this coming movie the first century of the Universal Century was essentially finished as a dramatic meta-story line. I kind of knew it from the beginning, definitely from #2, but after reviewing movie #6 it really crashed down on me. The big struggle between Federation and Zeon that has made the Universal Century such interesting times to live in (as per the Chinese aphorism) since 1979 is going to be complete. Finished. Over. Done, end of story. Unlike the usual franchise, Gundam will close the book on its defining original story. Anything else that comes up will be in the same vein as The Unfinished Tales was to the Hobbit-LOTR connected tales & The Silmarillion. Extra stuff, nfity stuff, nooks-and-crannies stuff, but nothing to extend the old classics or break new ground on them.

And that is somewhat mighty to me, as a fan. i don't know anything else in such a final way, except when a favored author died and I knew that no more new books would be forthcoming. has any one else here felt that end-of-an-era vibe as well?

I always thought F91 definitively indicated that we were going to move on from Zeon. This one just makes Zeon's fate final. Of course by F-91 the Federation is in decay, and this continues into Victory. Unicorn simply gives us a deeper understanding of how and why this might've happened.

[Chris]

And that is somewhat mighty to me, as a fan. i don't know anything else in such a final way, except when a favored author died and I knew that no more new books would be forthcoming. has any one else here felt that end-of-an-era vibe as well?

It can't really be the end of an era when Sunrise won't let the One Year War die due to its popularity. There's always going to be more OVAs, manga and video games. F91 and Victory were attempts to end that era and move beyond Zeon, but clearly they weren't very successful in that regard.

[ShadowCell]

I suppose you could say the Federation-Zeon conflict continues, if they wanted to go on to the Oldsmobile Army...but the Oldsmobiles already looked kind of ridiculous before Unicorn ever came around, and they'd be even more so now. As far as a story goes, they're pretty superfluous and uninteresting.

[Zeonista]

I suppose you could say the Federation-Zeon conflict continues, if they wanted to go on to the Oldsmobile Army...but the Oldsmobiles already looked kind of ridiculous before Unicorn ever came around, and they'd be even more so now. As far as a story goes, they're pretty superfluous and uninteresting.

I do not think of the Oldsmobile Army as being a real continuation of the Spirit of Zeon(TM). They are more of a nostalgic kick in that time than anything else.

Chris: I am confident that Sunrise & Bandai will continue to fuel my desire to acquire UC stuff. But I won't expect too much from it, mostly some more pretty pictures & Gunpla for me. Good enough most days for a fan, ne?