The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Deacon Blues » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:44 pm

Speaking of Fukui, there is actually an interview in one of the Gundam books he gives and states his stance on the Federation if anyone would like me to summarize...

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by latenlazy » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:55 pm

Pretty please :D

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Zeonista » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:10 am

It's really not THAT absurd. In the world of war atrocities, stories like Angelo's is actually remarkably (and unfortunately) blase. It's very common for people to have first hand experiences that are just this awful (or worse) in war and then generalize that experience to an entire country. I would not over generalize these awful back stories and presume that Fukui is trying to villify the Federation. Fukui is just demonstrating that the Federation and its people are no different any other state in all their multitude of complexity.
I must concede that Angelo's boiling-teakettle presentation of his grievances does get in the way of people feeling sympathy for him. He has enough anger for an entire Sinn Fein rally in Boston, and it comes after several volumes of story where other Sleeves & Remnants have done a more eloquent and less frothing way of explaining their side of the argument to Banagher & us. Still, Fukui is on the money in showing that people like Angelo are the result of past wars, and the ready cause of new ones if the circumstances arise.
I also don't think Fukui is suggesting that it takes some over the top experience to side with Zeon. People are very selective about how the interpret different events. When it's the people or things you care about you're the victim, and when it's your enemy then they had it coming, or there must be a greater good.
That's a nice generalized summary of the respective viewpoints of the Universal Century's various factions. :) If anything, the UC Gundam stories tend to bring personal concerns and desires to the front for the focal characters, then add the competing ideologies (or lack of same) forward later. But like you said, people do find personal reasons to support their beliefs, political or otherwise. As a commenter on some political blog sites, I can testify to this process. :D And in the UC universe with its "Shades of Grey" moral spectrum, the personal motive will often be more sure & certain than any attachment to nation or ideology.

Kratos: There I go waving the flag again. :P The Vist Foundation's desire to complete their pet project and use their Feddy puppets to help move things along puts the Federation in a bad light. However, it's not like the Titans are on the rise again, and Lond Bell seems intent on doing what they think is right whatever the political & corporate bosses on the Moon might want. The inability of the Sleeves & Lond Bell to join hands in #6 and agree to fix events to their mutual satisfaction was a bitter pill for me to swallow. But there it is, there has been too much blood spilled and too many bad memories accumulated to make that happen, and Banagher & Audrey are no Kira & Lacus. TIme for the three-way fight and bittersweet ending....

Brent D15:
Yes, there is a lot of UC Gundam to be watched to fully understand this story! :lol: Fukui is awesome enough to draw on the full breadth of the UC meta-story for his novel, and the subsequent anime adaptation. However, it does require some context....

Deacon Blues: Pretty please with AKB 0048 on top. :D
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by latenlazy » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:12 am

Kratos wrote:
latenlazy wrote:The threat to the Federation that is presented in Gundam UC is both extremely powerful and extremely subtle. People who don't put some critical thinking into what's going on aren't likely to grasp why the Federation may be willing to resort to morally questionable actions in a way that isn't simply cartoonish villainy.
I think it also takes an understanding of how governments can shift and change over time. One complaint I've heard put forward is that the Federation presented in Unicorn (especially the early Federation) doesn't jibe with the one presented in earlier works. People seem to think that by saying the UC 0001 Federation would commit a False Flag attack (or not; I hope the ending clears up exactly who Syam was working for when him and those people attacked Laplace), Unicorn is saying the 0079 Federation would do so as well. There's room for the potentially sinister Federation of the past, the more benevolent Federation of the OYW era, and the spineless, ineffectual, and paranoid Federation of the 0090s+. 100 years can see a lot of change in any given government.
Exactly! Furthermore governments can look both sinister and benevolent, oppressive and just, all at the same time depending on what their interests are and from what perspective we gauge their actions, and Unicorn tries to collect every face of the Federation to capture this truth.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Soma Taozi » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:50 am

Deacon Blues wrote:The threat to the Federation that is presented in Gundam UC is both extremely powerful
Yes yes yes! I haven't been this enthralled in a discussion on this site in a LONG time. And since the finale episode of Unicorn is coming out, it would be nice to see what the original creator's opinion on Zeon is :)
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Mythgarr » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:18 am

Heck, 100 years is enough to have 3-4 kinds of government in a given country.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by latenlazy » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:29 am

To add to my last post, one can see what the Federation is doing to secure the box (like targeting their own soldiers) as evil, draconian, justified or even noble.

On one hand we could see the Federation targeting the Nahel Argama as trying to preserve the interests of the elite, but that would be ignoring the fact that with the current order, however unjust, twisted, or broken some people may feel it to be, billions of lives are being protected and may even be flourishing, in a sense, through it (Riddhe's logic). On the other hand the Nahel Argama could be accurately accused of collaborating with the enemy, which could easily qualify as treason, but then that would ignore the higher mission they're attempting to engage in, even at said cost of stability and the disruption of countless lives (which in turn could defeat the very purpose the protagonists are invoking the risks for).

The stake that the box represents is beyond individual human lives, but its also a stake that is partially and significantly defined by those lives, so it would be naively wrong to try to discern the moral landscape only through that perspective, even as it would be just as callously wrong to disregard it entirely. That's really the beauty of the moral dilemma of La+'s box sets up in Gundam UC, and it nicely demonstrates a deep understanding of the nature of politics (not just in the Universal Century but generally) than what we usually see in media and public discourse.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Zeino » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:42 am

Speaking of Federation and Laplace's box, I wonder how much of the leadership of the past series would have be "in the know" about it's existence? Would Jamitov, Bask and possibly even Scirocco have known about it? Would General Revil have known?

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by latenlazy » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:47 am

Zeino wrote:Speaking of Federation and Laplace's box, I wonder how much of the leadership of the past series would have be "in the know" about it's existence? Would Jamitov, Bask and possibly even Scirocco have known about it? Would General Revil have known?
Maybe not General Revil, but the La+ conspiracy would dovetail rather neatly with how the Titans behaved...though I suppose the elegance there is that they didn't have to know about the conspiracy to act in accordance to its purpose. Once things were set, the system managed to make everything happen on its own quite well creating its own personalities and circumstances when it needed. Talk about your structural historical forces.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Zeonista » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:28 pm

Soma Taozi: I am glad you are enjoying the current discussion, and hopefully we will be able to bring you some enlightenment! :)
Zeino wrote:Speaking of Federation and Laplace's box, I wonder how much of the leadership of the past series would have be "in the know" about it's existence? Would Jamitov, Bask and possibly even Scirocco have known about it? Would General Revil have known?
Not necessarily, no, for the examples you gave. Now Melanie Hugh Carbine, on the other hand... ;)

The revealing of the La+ Box only became important in UC 0096 because the Vist Foundation was getting ready to celebrate year 0100 by obtaining the box, opening it, and....presumably nice things to follow. Other than recent events, the Vist Foundation was not directly involved in dealing with Zeon. It was stated in-story that Zeon Zum Daikun and his successors were an unlooked-for development in the Vist Foundation's forecast of events in the development of the Earth Sphere. Some obligatory finger-wagging at the Foundation might be due here, but that inability to add unknown variables has indeed always been a hazard of long-range planning. In that respect the Vist Foundation was no more to blame than the Federation's elites at large.

Since Zeonism in its various forms was an obstacle to the Vist Foundation, the Foundation made its resources available to opposing it. The Titans were a direct Anti-Zeon group that would have been tolerated as long as they kept those pesky Spacenoids under control and out of the way of the Foundation's plans. I doubt Jamitov Hyman was brought into the secret. He was not a trustworthy person, as subsequently shown when the Titans then got out of control themselves. AEUG had to be formed to put the Titans down, then hold the line against Neo Zeon. AEUG was shown in Zeta Gundam to be supported by a consortium of Lunar corporations, including Anaheim Electronics & chairman Melanie Hugh Carbine. Since his wife was a key player in Gundam Unicorn, one may well presume that the Titans definitely crossed the wrong people. (Suddenly the events in the second half of Zeta Gundam & most of Gundam Double Zeta regarding the supine nature of the EUG bigwigs & the haphazard reactions of AEUG begin to make sense....)

General Revil was a good leader on the battlefield against the Principality of Zeon, but the original Gundam story gave no sign of him being directly associated with the eliie members of the Federation associated with the Vist Foundation. Revil was (to them) a good tool, a good dog, but not someone worthy of consideration. Some of the good general's reports and speculations on Newtypes would have been useful, but no, he like many men of personal integrity in the Federation was not going to get an invitation.

I am serious inclined to doubt that Sirocco knew about the La+ Box. His actions in Zeta Gundam were all about gaining a most tangible power via control of the Titans. And if Hyman might be considered unworthy, then Sirocco was definitely not to be considered! :shock: Now, if he had succeeded in coming out on top in the struggle at the end of that story, I would say he would have eventually learned of the box, and decided to take it for himself. Fortunately for the Universal Century that unhappy confluence of events never occurred!

latenlazy: The idea of the fluctuating nature of the EUG is a good & rational idea, and might be plausible in the narrative context. However, I doubt you could persuade anyone in Zeon, either Republic, Principality, or in-between, of this notion! :) At least, not in any way that would halt the progression of events to and from the One Year War. Rebellions, revolutions and wars of independence occur when the revolting side has become convinced that peaceful resistance and/or legislative reform will not be forthcoming, and that the parental government is not interested in ever heeding them.

So regardless of the individual people currently empowered in the EUG in any given year of the Universal Century, those politicians and bureaucrats were simply not ready or willing to give the Side Colonies any form of autonomy, let alone honor Zeon's declaration of independence. Continuing intransigence in this regard led to the post-0079 Zeon factions in arms being labeled "terrorists" across the board, with all the negative loading of that term halting any process that might give said factions an incentive to accept a negotiated peace. The Remnants might as well keep fighting until they forced favorable terms at the point of a MS gun barrel, or were killed to the last man trying... Also, the intransigence added to the perceived need to combat "terrorism" led to the attitude that empowered the Titans, so no gain there either!

Edit: I can't spell worth a damn when I type fast. :P
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Kratos » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:30 pm

Yeah, I don't think anybody other than some very privileged politicians had any knowledge of Laplace's Box.

I'm actually sort of interested in how the central Federation government functions. How does election work? Is there really zero suffrage for colonial residents, or is that just another twisted fact from Frontal, a character continually put into question by the narrative of the show (like the "policy of mass exile" bit)? I think I've seen the title of "governor" applied to colonial leaders before - does this leadership structure apply to the various Earth territories as well (since there are still cities, and presumably somebody must lead at a local level)? It'd be interesting to see if any of the various guidebooks or whatnot discuss this. [EDIT: Some of this was answered by Deacon's post in the infor dump thread, but I left in the election stuff]
Zeonista wrote:Continuing intransigence in this regard led to the post-0079 Zeon factions in arms being labeled "terrorists" across the board, with all the negative loading of that term halting any process that might give said factions an incentive to accept a negotiated peace.
But in all fairness, they WERE terrorists. All four post-Principality military factions were effectively rogue fleets, disavowed by their home "nation" and fighting a war that no longer existed. Of those four, two (and the Principality) fight that war by resorting to attacks on mass civilian populations. That tactic is terrorism, and no matter how sympathetic their cause was (and that's debatable; Unicorn's remnants are hardly alone in their cause of "hurt the Federation" being the sole end), such methods aren't going to make the other side particularly willing to re-evaluate their relationship with you.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by excalibur2008 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:36 pm

Kratos wrote:
Zeonista wrote:Continuing intransigence in this regard led to the post-0079 Zeon factions in arms being labeled "terrorists" across the board, with all the negative loading of that term halting any process that might give said factions an incentive to accept a negotiated peace.
But in all fairness, they WERE terrorists. All four post-Principality military factions were effectively rogue fleets, disavowed by their home "nation" and fighting a war that no longer existed. Of those four, two (and the Principality) fight that war by resorting to attacks on mass civilian populations. That tactic is terrorism, and no matter how sympathetic their cause was (and that's debatable; Unicorn's remnants are hardly alone in their cause of "hurt the Federation" being the sole end), such methods aren't going to make the other side particularly willing to re-evaluate their relationship with you.
Plus the Zeon remnants kind of lose any justification when you think about it.

1) The Principality of Zeon as shown in Mobile Suit Gundam never seemed interested in independence for the Space Colonies, and in fact their goal as stated by Gihren Zabi was taking over the Earth Sphere and ruling over it as a dictatorship. In fact I don't really recall anything that showed that the Zeon cared about any other colonies besides Side 3.

2) The Republic of Zeon remained an independent nation despite losing the war so they can't really be fighting for something they already have and again since I don't recall the Zeon showing any consideration for any of the other sides until 0083 when Delaz needed an excuse to keep fighting a long since over war I still don't buy the Space Colony independence stuff.

So really they just come off as guys who lost a war and won't let it go.

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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:32 pm

Zeonista wrote:So regardless of the individual people currently empowered in the EUG in any given year of the Universal Century, those politicians and bureaucrats were simply not ready or willing to give the Side Colonies any form of autonomy, let alone honor Zeon's declaration of independence.
Yes, which is clearly why they let Side 3 maintain their independence for twenty years before getting attacked. Oh, that iron-fisted Federation, only letting Side 3 remain independent for two decades before fighting a (defensive) war with them, and then only letting them keep their independence after that for another two decades, before they decide to rejoin the Federation of their own volition. Obviously the Federation bureaucracy has a vested interest in keeping their jackboots on the collective neck of Zeon by doing their best to ignore them for 40 years. :roll:

The single most annoying thing about Unicorn is their blatant retcons villainizing the Federation. Zinnerman's family was killed by Federation occupation soldiers, and apparently Angelo's family was abused by them as well. There's a secret something-or-other whose very existence is a threat to the continued rule of the Federation, and they're in cahoots with a century-old secret society that would make conspiracy theories blush. The problem is, all of this was invented whole cloth for Unicorn. If you want to write a story in an existing setting, you need to respect the setting that your story is set in. Things like 0080 and 08th MS Team that simply shed some light on a previously unrevealed part of the setting are great. Things like 0083 that show a different side to the same conflict (Zeon as honorable, loyal warriors instead of punch-clock draftees or mustachio-twirlingly evil masterminds), even if they have to change some things here and there without fundamentally altering the setting, are okay.

But Unicorn? Unicorn tries to go in and re-cast the Federation as the bad guys -- as bad, if not worse, than Zeon. Zeon civilians murdered and raped by Federation occupation forces? Zeon was never occupied after the One Year War! Zeon didn't even surrender -- it was a negotiated peace treaty, one that had Zeon retaining its independence and military, not the Zeon surrendering to the Federation. Laplace's Box is another, less subtle retcon that literally boils down to "the Federation is the bad guy and always has been". It's absolutely infuriating to see this sort of thing. We're not talking about presenting one side or another in a flattering or unflattering light, or looking at things from a different point of view. Unicorn is just flat-out making stuff up to justify hating on the Federation, things that are either completely unsupported by, or straight-up contradicted by, earlier material.

The sad thing? Even with Unicorn's retcons, the Federation is still the lesser of two evils. The Federation's darkest hour was the Titans killing millions of people protesting against the Federation. Zeon, on the other hand, murdered billions of people for no other reason than to terrify the survivors into surrendering, and then spent the next 15 years following up with the occasional dropping-large-objects-from-orbit. Even if you accept Unicorn's retcons to the Federation, Zeon is orders of magnitude worse, so saying "look how evil the Federation is, their occupation soldiers murdered some innocent Side 3 civilians, those Zeon guys are totally justified in fighting them" falls flat when Zeon murdered everyone in Sides 1, 2, 4, and 6, not to mention all the people on Earth killed by their various colony drops.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Kratos » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:48 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:Yes, which is clearly why they let Side 3 maintain their independence for twenty years before getting attacked. Oh, that iron-fisted Federation, only letting Side 3 remain independent for two decades before fighting a (defensive) war with them, and then only letting them keep their independence after that for another two decades, before they decide to rejoin the Federation of their own volition. Obviously the Federation bureaucracy has a vested interest in keeping their jackboots on the collective neck of Zeon by doing their best to ignore them for 40 years. :roll:
While I tend to sympathize more with the Feds than Zeon, I thought it was fairly well established that Side 3's government was nominally independent but actually a Federation puppet state post-OYW. There's also the sanctions imposed on the Republic after Deikun declared independence, but nobody seems to be able to agree on the severity of those. In any case, while I don't think the Feds were exactly crushing Side 3 under their heels, my impression was that they weren't exactly ignoring them either.

Regarding the rest of that, well, I disagree. First off, the only real retcon (and I think it's status as such is highly debatable) is the Box itself. The rest of it is doing exactly what you say 08th MS Team is doing. Is some of it a bit of a stretch? Sure, but so is saying that the Federation had several Gundam-level machines that are just conveniently off-screen for a good chunk of the original series. I actually think you're being too kind to 0083, which retcons in an ENTIRE COLONY DROP, and its attitude towards Zeon soldiers is basically the inverse of what Unicorn does to (nameless, unseen) Federation soldiers. It just adds another dimension, and one common to real-life militaries at that. Heck, less-than-virtuous Fed soldiers are even present in MSG! As for the whole occupation business - where, exactly, is it ever previously established that Side 3 wasn't occupied? Sure, it's never stated, but the Federation occupying the homeland of a dangerous dictatorship is just as likely as it is not, regardless of the exact nature of the war's official end. Of course, if there's something in one of the anime that says they didn't, I'm all ears (eyes?).
Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:Even with Unicorn's retcons, the Federation is still the lesser of two evils. [...] Even if you accept Unicorn's retcons to the Federation, Zeon is orders of magnitude worse, so saying "look how evil the Federation is, their occupation soldiers murdered some innocent Side 3 civilians, those Zeon guys are totally justified in fighting them" falls flat when Zeon murdered everyone in Sides 1, 2, 4, and 6, not to mention all the people on Earth killed by their various colony drops.
Here's the thing - I don't think that Unicorn's narrative is in opposition to what you're saying, nor do I think it's trying to justify the fight of its Zeon factions, whom it portrays its as either sad and deluded (remnants) or outright shifty and sinister and dangerous (the Sleeves). Yes, it adds some unsavory elements to the Federation, but it doesn't undo the sins of Zeon's past (like, say, a certain Shin Matsunaga manga) and - like I said on the other page - there's lots of room for these various faces of the Federation to exist over the course of 100 years, especially when its 0096 portrayal is completely in line with CCA and the late UC stuff.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Dark Duel » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:15 pm

I completely agree. Except that the problem with the backstories of both Zinnerman and Angelo is that, as Kirby pointed out, AT NO POINT, EVER, in nearly twenty years of the UC from the One-Year War onwards, was there EVER ANY OCCUPATION by the Federation of Zeon.
The reverse undeniably took place - Zeon occupied vast areas of Earth during the One-Year War. But Side 3 was never occupied by the Federation, and Zeon had no holdings on Earth to speak of after the OYW, certainly no civilian populations AFAIK.

The same problem does not arise with Marida's backstory, since AFAIK her tormentors were presumably civilians, or at least never identified as being the Federation.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by latenlazy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:42 pm

Dark Duel wrote:I completely agree. Except that the problem with the backstories of both Zinnerman and Angelo is that, as Kirby pointed out, AT NO POINT, EVER, in nearly twenty years of the UC from the One-Year War onwards, was there EVER ANY OCCUPATION by the Federation of Zeon.
The reverse undeniably took place - Zeon occupied vast areas of Earth during the One-Year War. But Side 3 was never occupied by the Federation, and Zeon had no holdings on Earth to speak of after the OYW, certainly no civilian populations AFAIK.

The same problem does not arise with Marida's backstory, since AFAIK her tormentors were presumably civilians, or at least never identified as being the Federation.
Was this detail in the novel? I don't seem to remember where it was mentioned that the Federation occupied, and I don't remember the details so I could be wrong, but I got the impression that Zinneman's story happened on Earth under Zeon occupied territory? We know that Zeon moved people down to Earth in territory it occupied...but again the details for me here are extremely fuzzy, so I'm waiting to be corrected.

As for Federation soldiers doing terrible things to civilian families...we don't have to look very far from history to know this stuff happens, even for States that sign the Geneva convention. Such incidences have occurred, though probably to a less severe extent, under US occupation in Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, and even Japan. It's not hard to imagine that the small scale atrocities the Federation may have turned a blind eye to could have been much worse given that 1) there were no other nations to hold the Federation accountable, and 2) this was the war that killed billions of people.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Kratos » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:46 pm

Dark Duel wrote:Except that the problem with the backstories of both Zinnerman and Angelo is that, as Kirby pointed out, AT NO POINT, EVER, in nearly twenty years of the UC from the One-Year War onwards, was there EVER ANY OCCUPATION by the Federation of Zeon.
The reverse undeniably took place - Zeon occupied vast areas of Earth during the One-Year War. But Side 3 was never occupied by the Federation, and Zeon had no holdings on Earth to speak of after the OYW, certainly no civilian populations AFAIK.
It was never mentioned, sure, but the time immediately following the OYW is notoriously under-depicted. The soonest that we see anything occur in animation is 3 years after the war's end, and so I don't see how it's so implausible that the Federation might have conducted a short-term occupation of Side 3.

Unless, as I said, it's specifically stated at some point that they didn't. Then it's a retcon.
latenlazy wrote:Was this detail in the novel? I don't seem to remember where it was mentioned that the Federation occupied, and I don't remember the details so I could be wrong, but I got the impression that Zinneman's story happened on Earth under Zeon occupied territory that was being returned to the Federation?
No, Flast does specifically say that it's during a Federation occupation of Side 3. And remember, Side 3 is the only place where "Zeon civilians" would be living anyways - I don't think they ever sent civilians to live in occupied territories on Earth.
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Zeonista » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:45 pm

Kratos wrote:Yeah, I don't think anybody other than some very privileged politicians had any knowledge of Laplace's Box.

I'm actually sort of interested in how the central Federation government functions. How does election work? Is there really zero suffrage for colonial residents, or is that just another twisted fact from Frontal, a character continually put into question by the narrative of the show (like the "policy of mass exile" bit)? I think I've seen the title of "governor" applied to colonial leaders before - does this leadership structure apply to the various Earth territories as well (since there are still cities, and presumably somebody must lead at a local level)? It'd be interesting to see if any of the various guidebooks or whatnot discuss this. [EDIT: Some of this was answered by Deacon's post in the infor dump thread, but I left in the election stuff]
Zeonista wrote:Continuing intransigence in this regard led to the post-0079 Zeon factions in arms being labeled "terrorists" across the board, with all the negative loading of that term halting any process that might give said factions an incentive to accept a negotiated peace.
But in all fairness, they WERE terrorists. All four post-Principality military factions were effectively rogue fleets, disavowed by their home "nation" and fighting a war that no longer existed. Of those four, two (and the Principality) fight that war by resorting to attacks on mass civilian populations. That tactic is terrorism, and no matter how sympathetic their cause was (and that's debatable; Unicorn's remnants are hardly alone in their cause of "hurt the Federation" being the sole end), such methods aren't going to make the other side particularly willing to re-evaluate their relationship with you.
The Zeon Remnants in the anime & most of the manga actually fit the current international conventions for lawful combatants. They have organization, uniforms, military vehicles, a recognizable device, and claim to representation of a nation, whether it is acknowledged by any other government or not. The retention of ZMF trappings and military-style operations is their claim to legitimacy; skulking about and planting bombs & back-shooting civil servants is not their forte. So the label of "terrorist" is a political slur and a convenient dodge for the Federation's rulers. After all, one need not negotiate with terrorists, hold diplomatic meetings with terrorists, make agreements, armistices, or treaties with terrorists, or inquire too deeply about the motives and claims of terrorists. Surely the policies and plans of the Federation can not be to blame for dissent and unrest among the colonists. No, it can only be the work of terrorists. How convenient, ne? ;)

/rant

You are right, the EUG and the Federation at large are rather broadly defined. However, that is probably for the best, from a dramatic view. I myself am aa great devotee of political theory & political & social history. However, it will effectively kill a narrative dead by digressing to discuss the intricacies of such topics, so the various UC narratives may be readily excused in this regard. However, since you asked...

To my mind though the Federation's lack of detail is its greatest detail. After all, we are talking about an apparatus that purports to control & direct the lives of billions of people. Behold the political Leviathan in its multi-tiered, sub-committee-ed, lobbyist-attended ministerial glory, with all the bloat, bureaucratic sclerosis, and insider shenanigans so entailed. The very encumbrance of such an edifice is what probably makes the Federation prone to bad behavior at times. Not that any particular ill will is intended, but the indifference, benign (or not so benign) neglect, crony capitalism, and the vast remove between the actual policy makers and the populace so affected by those policies allow a breeding-ground for corruption, petty tyranny of the civil servant, and a smokescreen for agencies like the Vist Foundation to use the powers of government for their own ends.

It is a prominent feature of the Federation in all the UC stories that the higher-ups are out of touch with the situation on the ground, politicians have a tin ear to the complaints of the populace, and the senior military officers see the troops as so many "personnel assets" and "material assets" to the extent that they either are slow to expend the those assets, or expend them in great amounts, The Federation heroes have to make shift on their own, or decide where & when they are going to tell the Higher Ups to take a flying leap so they can do something to stop the madness before it is Too Late. That sort of situation is painfully familiar for all of here at MAHQ who are working or who have worked for Big Government or Big Corporation! :D So that's the Federation as I see it, not as being irredeemable, but as a Monolith that the Zeonists wish to shatter. (AEUG settled for some chisels and hammers to do some remedial cutting. :P )

Brave Fencer Kirby: Gundam Unicorn does not blame the Federation for the all the evils of the Universal Century. However, its contribution to the mess is more clearly articulated here than at any time since Zeta Gundam, and perhaps Formula 91. It still takes two sides to have a war, and the Federation has been called on its living in a state of denial for 15 years concerning its role in enabling the One Year War and allowing the continuation of the accumulated tangle of fighting. Granted, the story events and the back history of the UC at large in the novel has given Full Frontal the ability to score some points at the Federation's expense, but the Federation is not all to blame, and Frontal himself can only offer a solution that would have been credible 6 years ago, but seems rather thin now. And more importantly, the 800-pound gorilla of Anaheim Electronics (and Vist Foundation), friends in need to everyone aboard Nel Argama at some point, isn't allowed for in the details, either.

Fukui has actually been rather even-handed in his novel, setting forth the claims and demands of Zeon Remnants, Neo-Zeon & Sleeves, Lond Bell (ex-AEUG), the Vist Foundation, and the Federation at large. All with Banagher at the center as the randomly appointed referee and judge of the final results of said colloquy. The real shame of the matter is that it took 15 years for the impromptu group discussion to occur at all. There is a great deal of "if only" melancholy & frustration present in the story, and that's to be expected. There had better be something pretty damn awesome in that La+ Box in the end.... (Yeah I haven't read the final volume of the novel yet, I am still waiting for the #7 movie, pardon my deliberate ignorance! :D )

Edit: I still suck at rapid-typing spelling, and the rant over political terminology has been cordoned off to discuss more pertinent details. :P
Last edited by Zeonista on Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"I am fire. I am death. I am Hashmal."

"Discontent is the first step in the progress for a man or a nation." - Oscar Wilde

latenlazy
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by latenlazy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:51 pm

Kratos wrote:
latenlazy wrote:Was this detail in the novel? I don't seem to remember where it was mentioned that the Federation occupied, and I don't remember the details so I could be wrong, but I got the impression that Zinneman's story happened on Earth under Zeon occupied territory that was being returned to the Federation?
No, Flast does specifically say that it's during a Federation occupation of Side 3. And remember, Side 3 is the only place where "Zeon civilians" would be living anyways - I don't think they ever sent civilians to live in occupied territories on Earth.
Ah I see. I always got the impression that Zeon sent some people to live on Earth since we had Garma Zabi's little royal shindigs in MSG and all. Haven't watched MSG in forever though, so the details are really fuzzy there too.

But yeah, like you said the Federation occupying Side 3 for a period of time isn't that big a retcon, and wouldn't be unprecedented either. At the end of WWII the US and SU occupied Germany and the US occupied Japan until an official peace treaty was signed 7 years later.
Zeonista wrote: The Zeon Remnants in the anime & most of the manga actually fit the current international conventions for lawful combatants. They have organization, uniforms, military vehicles, a recognizable device, and claim to representation of a nation, whether it is acknowledged by any other government or not. The retention of ZMF trappings and military-style operations is their claim to legitimacy; skulking about and planting bombs & back-shooting civil servants is not their forte. So the label of "terrorist" is a political slur and a convenient dodge for the Federation's rulers. After all, one need not negotiate with terrorists, hold diplomatic meetings with terrorists, make agreements, armistices, or treaties with terrorists, or inquire too deeply about the motives and claims of terrorists. Surely the policies and plans of the Federation can not be to blame for dissent and unrest among the colonists. No, it can only be the work of terrorists. How convenient, ne? ;)
Ehh...I wouldn't be so sure about that. Even in our current day, those qualifiers aren't applied with any certainty. For example, the PLA in the 1930s in China was at times regarded as a terrorist organization. So were the Vietcong and the Khmer Rouge. Then there are the numerous quasi-military groups in Africa with various degrees of organizational and logistical capacities, the PLO, etc. For sure that the term terrorism is thrown around quite liberally, even in present day, to attempt to delegitimize certain political groups, but I think the term terrorism may be best qualified as a non-state actor/organization that employs violence as a means, rather than a list of their specific organizational and logistical features.

When we apply this to Zeon, it may be best to get more granular and not treat everything called Zeon the same For example, there's a harder case to be made for Neo Zeon/Axis being a terrorist organization than for the Zeon Remnants and the Sleeves. It might in fact be more precise to say that by the time of Gundam UC, the "Zeon" that the Federation is hunting were once legitimate state level actors who have faded into terrorist groups. Keep in mind that many present day terrorist groups make it their goal to employ enough influence and intimidation to become legitimate state actors, which is precisely what these Zeon groups would like.

Zeonista
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Re: The Official Gundam Unicorn Anime Thread Mk VI

Post by Zeonista » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:59 pm

latenlazy wrote:
Kratos wrote:No, Flast does specifically say that it's during a Federation occupation of Side 3. And remember, Side 3 is the only place where "Zeon civilians" would be living anyways - I don't think they ever sent civilians to live in occupied territories on Earth.
Ah I see. I always got the impression that Zeon sent some people to live on Earth since we had Garma Zabi's little royal shindigs in MSG and all. Haven't watched MSG in forever though, so the details are really fuzzy there too.

But yeah, like you said the Federation occupying Side 3 for a period of time isn't that big a retcon, and wouldn't be unprecedented either. At the end of WWII the US and SU occupied Germany and the US occupied Japan until an official peace treaty was signed 7 years later.
Kratos was right, the EFSF did temporarily occupy Side 3 after the end of the One year War. Their presence is confirmed by the ZMF & Principality elements mainly rallying at Axis instead of Zum City or another colony inside Side 3. Presumably the occupation role was to make sure that the Principality was well and truly abandoned, to permit the new Republic of Zeon government to be established, and to allow repatriation of Federation POWs from Side 3 & ZMF POWs from Earth and the space battlefields. Ecole du Ciel mentioned a Federation & Titans presence inside Side 3, but whether or not that made the new Republic the Federation's dogs would be a matter of perspective.

The Principality never made a permanent settlement of Side 3 colonists on Earth during the One Year War. Any organization or community of Zeon supporters on earth were Earthnoids themselves who chose to support Zeon for their own reasons. Now it the OYW had ended with a Principality victory and a Zabi in charge, well, that might have been different. Some players of Gihren's Ambition might be able to contribute possible scenarios. ;)
Ehh...I wouldn't be so sure about that. Even in our current day, those qualifiers aren't applied with any certainty.

Quite possibly so! The "what's in a name" game of political terminology or generally overused words in the popular news media these days irks me no end. Terms like "terrorist" and "terrorism" get flung around a lot with little context or definition. Like Inigo Montoya, I feel compelled upon occasion to point out that the word used does not mean what you think it means. :D So what I said is definitely a YMMV post.
When we apply this to Zeon, it may be best to get more granular and not treat everything called Zeon the same For example, there's a harder case to be made for Neo Zeon/Axis being a terrorist organization than for the Zeon Remnants and the Sleeves. It might in fact be more precise to say that by the time of Gundam UC, the "Zeon" that the Federation is hunting were once legitimate state level actors who have faded into terrorist groups. Keep in mind that many present day terrorist groups make it their goal to employ enough influence and intimidation to become legitimate state actors, which is precisely what these Zeon groups would like.
This paragraph alone shows more consideration of the applied term than The New York Times has done recently, at the least! It's something I might expect to see in-story on a pro-AEUG LAN BBS site in a Side colony. After all, good dissidents must provide context, because the establishment's mouthpieces aren't going to bother! :D
Last edited by Zeonista on Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
"I am fire. I am death. I am Hashmal."

"Discontent is the first step in the progress for a man or a nation." - Oscar Wilde

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