Zeon an allegory for japan?

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tHeWasTeDYouTh
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

the Atlantic Federation and Eurasian Federations are never allies, they joined forces to fight the coordinators

that is why they try to steal the Archangel and the Strike Gundam

it also appears that the Atlantic Federation is the only nation with many fleets and capable of fighting zaft head on while other nations are forced to join and help out
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Zinegata
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

bullethead wrote:That's going a bit far, especially when academic fields revolving around media extensively engage in interpreting a work, including authorial intent, through what's present and implied.
There is also the issue of implied intent. Even if you didn't intend a work to be "Go Japan, Bad America!", but your work bleeds this theme off blatantly, then you can in fact be criticized for promoting this theme.

Just because Fukuda didn't actually say it or didn't mean it doesn't change the fact that Orb is a pretty blatant expy of Japan, and that the Atlantic Federation of the United States.
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

Zeino wrote:It's funny but I thought the leaders of the Earth Alliance seemed more European. Azrael was a blond blue-eyed embodiment of Nazi-like ideals while Djibril and his associates in Logos were old-world aristocrats tying to maintain their status as the Cosmic Era's one and only privileged elite. Neither of which screamed "America under the Bush administration". If anything, ZAFT seems more like the USA, considering it's a nation made of many PLANT states and went to war because of a surprise terrorist attack on it's territory.

Oh, and speaking of 00, remember how the puppet president of the ESF under Ribbons happened to looked alot like Obama and his replacement in Awakening of the Trailblazer looked like Hillary Clinton?
Whenever I see her, I keep thinking Angela Merkel more than Hillary Clinton for some reason (theres an impression in my head that made me think she came from the AEU) though physically I guess she might be closer to Clinton now that I think about it. I did get the Obama impression for the previous ESF President especially since he was either leading the election or was already winning when he first appeared at the end of S1 (though I can't help but feel like it was before he became president since 00S1 ended within the first half of 2008).
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

Scheuch13 wrote:A lot of the themes are fairly obviously tied to WW2, but it seems like Zeon is a purposeful construct of the japanese during that during.

- Severely outnumber
- use daring tactics that are wildly successful at first.
- Feel like they were pushed into a war by an oppressive government (the US)
- Atrocities seemingly only committed by one side early on in the war (east asia)
- Feddies using super weapons to destroy the last remnants of Zeon (colony Laser, aka nukes)
- Obsession with creating war winning weapons
This is not off-base as you might think. The Japanese had their own wonder weapon programs, the aircraft at least would have been troublesome if they had been ready in time. See the excellent Luftwaffe 1946 comic book for some relevant examples. But like the ZMF, the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy mostly stuck to refining current existing designs rather than bringing out new equipment. If you like, the excellent Japanese fighters used in home defense against the Superfortress missions could be comparable to the Gelgoog. :)
- Defeated but still having fanatical holdouts believing in the cause.

But all of that does not explain why the Japanese seem to love Zeon so much more then the Federation, because the things Zeon does during the war are pretty horrible when you think about it. But then again from my standpoint the also seem to have a love affair with Nazi symbolism (uniforms, gear, flags, etc). Just something I have noticed over the years.
Wow, how did I miss this topic so far?? :shock:

It's a valid question. The parallels between the Principality of Zeon and WW II-era Imperial Japan can be observed and commented upon. I should know, I've done so in the past. :) Despite the Space Nazi imagery from the later OVAs, the original trilogy had the Principality characters most often thinking and acting like Imperial Japanese officers and crewmen. And to be straightforward about it, it's not all in your head. It was Tomino's intention from the beginning to make Mobile Suit Gundam a serious war story, so he used a serious historical model for his antagonist. At the same time, he wanted his viewers to understand the Zeon POV, since he wanted to make the Zeons more deeply defined than the mustache-twirling baddies of earlier giant robot anime. (Even in Space Battleship Yamato, the Garmilas were the antagonists because they were evil aliens blasting the innocent Earth, no more, no less.) So he used background details that a Japanese audience at least could both understand and reject.

The Zeon characterization is cliched these days, since it's been copied over and over again. This was mentioned in the Valvrave thread, to be sure! ;) But in 1979 this was some awesome new stuff. The Principality had its own rationale for existing, with its own ideology, and its own version of what was "right" in the Universal Century. Pretty much the way Imperial Japan had presented itself. (For those who think that Zeon was over the top, I invite you to read some actual Japanese propaganda speeches and reports from the war years. Tomino actually turned it down some!) The Principality is defeated much the same way the Imperialists were defeated; arrogance, overreach, disbelief their inferior enemy would be stubborn, and finding no solace in desperate courage in the teeth of overwhelming odds with superior technology. But hey, a serious foe has to have a reason for defeat that has a higher dramatic basis than "We're out of robeasts!"

Of course, in 1941 there was no Char Aznable revving his Zero's engine on the flight deck of Zuikaku while promising to himself that Hideki Tojo wasn't going to benefit from this war, but drama has its own needs. :) As to why the die-hard japanese Gundam fans tend to like Zeon mecha and characters, I would say that has to do with the Japanese cultural tradition of admiring heroic failure. But that's another topic....
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

bullethead wrote:That's going a bit far, especially when academic fields revolving around media extensively engage in interpreting a work, including authorial intent, through what's present and implied.
Well, I actually meant "libel", but it's still accurate because people primarily use the "Orb = Japan, Alliance = George Bush's America" notion to slam Fukuda as some kind of narrow-minded racist hack. Trust me, I was involved in the Destiny debates as they happened; I heard them all, particularly the idea that Fukuda lost an uncle to the Hiroshima bombing and saw the idea of writing Americans as racist slimebags as revenge. The thing is, unless someone can provide varifiable proof that Mitsuo Fukuda DID intentionally make the Alliance a bunch of crazy racists as a Take-That against the United States, it IS libel - a false, malicious statement intended to smear him.

I admit, the parallels between Orb and Japan are pretty ludicrously blatant, but like I say in the next response, jumping to conclusions doesn't help matters.
Zinegata wrote:There is also the issue of implied intent. Even if you didn't intend a work to be "Go Japan, Bad America!", but your work bleeds this theme off blatantly, then you can in fact be criticized for promoting this theme.

Just because Fukuda didn't actually say it or didn't mean it doesn't change the fact that Orb is a pretty blatant expy of Japan, and that the Atlantic Federation of the United States.
Not to use the old cliché, but you know what assuming does. :P I remember Code Geass got much the same treatment during its first season, with people actually calling for a boycott because they interpreted Britannia to be a slam against the US, particularly the idea of a powerful militaristic nation conquering a smaller, weaker one in order to steal their natural resources, which was seen as an allegory for the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. During the press event for Episodes 24 and 25, director/co-creator Goro Taniguchi was asked point-blank about this, and he responded "That wasn't my intention at all. I know some people insert that sort of thing into their works, but I just wanted to tell a fun and entertaining story". So the people who did like you suggested and just assumed that Britannia WAS a smack against America anyway would be wrong.
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

*rings hands* Ooh, the delicious debates we could have over intent of the creator vs the ownership the audience have of a production! Semiotic fun time!
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

HellCat wrote:*rings hands* Ooh, the delicious debates we could have over intent of the creator vs the ownership the audience have of a production! Semiotic fun time!
That topic is older than either Gundam or the Internet by many, many years! :mrgreen:

I'd also like to add that part of the connection between Imperial Japan and the Principality of Zeon is that they both used military pr para-military action to silence the political opposition, essentially turning their nations into single-party states where policies could be executed without the troublesome impediments of public debate, amendment, and passage by vote. Who needs the rule of law, we have the rule of the Newtype Man (and his consort the Newtype Woman), with hope and change for the future! (Sorry, getting wrapped up in the starry-eyed rhetoric again. :lol: )

In the case of Imperial Japan, in 1931 it was some angry young officers of rural background who wanted Japan to grab more colonial territory to give Japan strength, instead of the austere economic measures proposed instead. (Rural Japan was at that time impoverished, with little of the benefits of modernization enjoyed by the cities.) They shot, sabered, and bayoneted the offending ministers, with another round of such action in 1935 effectively silencing all opposition to expanded conquest in China. When the USA, Britain, and Netherlands united under American requests to embargo Japan's war-related imports, the militarists who had ridden Japanese public endorsement of the young officers to office were left with a three-choice dilemma.
1. Abandon further conquests in China and settle for Manchuria and the coasts, preserving their war material.
2. Carry on conquests as long as possible, knowing that an inevitable loss of territory and accompanying prestige would occur when war supplies ran low.
3. Plan and execute direct military action against British and Dutch colonies, and American territories, both to secure the war materials, and hopefully cancel any military action to counter them.
Everyone will know which option they took. ;)

In the case of the Principality, the Zabi family took the role of the imperialist-minded military faction of the Japanese government. The 1931 bloodletting would then approximate the action the Zabis took to quash their political opponents and make the Principality a de facto single-party state. Of course, having the slow creep of overseas involvement, the do-nothing League of Nations, FDR (Federation), and further bloody domestic suppression wouldn't meet the dramatic needs of anime, so Tomino sped things up again. So we turn to the Nazis again for some dramatic history. Tomino created his version of the Reichstag Fire incident that allowed Hitler to take direct power of the German government, and then use that power to create a Nazi state with public majority approval. Tomino's version of the Reichstag Fire was the bomb plot directed against the Zabis. The bomb directed against Gihren Zabi missed its target, which was really unfortunate for the plotters, and anti-Zeonist opposition in general. One might blame the One Year War on the doofus who didn't get Gihren's schedule right. So much for bombs as an implement of domestic politics! :) After the purges, the Principality of Zeon replaced the Republic, the Zabis ruled the Principality, and Gihren was busy planning the One Year War.

EDIT: Added a paragraph break, tweaked a couple of sentences for clearer meaning.
Last edited by Zeonista on Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

I may be interpreting Zeonista's point as much as we've been interpreting intent (historical or fictional) in this thread here, but my feeling is that the mechanisms of power Tomino and other Gundam-creators delve into are not limited to just space-nazis or space-imperial-japan. These are fairly recurring historical battles of vying for dominance in power struggles, that then spills over from the domestic field into international conflicts. Pegging a single conflict as the alpha and omega of the narrative can be a bit misleading (but it is natural, given how readily recognizable point of reference and culturally ingrained WWII is to many of us).

My own point is closer to what AmuroNT1 said about Code Geass: assuming fault. It seems that quite often American viewers find slights in anime directed at them, and find the direct causal relationship (to WWII, for example) of anti-American bias. I can't speak for the intent of the creators (except when they have been quoted, as Goro Taniguchi was), but to me (and some other European fans I've discussed this with) assuming, or even outright expecting that bias seems both self-centered and thin-skinned. I say this with love, mind you. ;) It is the right, of course, of the audience to interpret the works it "receives". It might not be the audience's right, however, to throw hissy fits based on those interpretations. ;)

That doesn't explain away that there is an affirmed and visible affection to some aspects of militarism in Gundam that draws on several sources, which in deeper analysis could be disturbing. It's true that it can be connected to their own history, like Zeonista wrote. Is it more blatant in Japan than elsewhere, then? I wouldn't be too sure about that, and that is why drawing broader conclusions on the subject seems a bit dubious.
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

Antares wrote:My own point is closer to what AmuroNT1 said about Code Geass: assuming fault. It seems that quite often American viewers find slights in anime directed at them, and find the direct causal relationship (to WWII, for example) of anti-American bias. I can't speak for the intent of the creators (except when they have been quoted, as Goro Taniguchi was), but to me (and some other European fans I've discussed this with) assuming, or even outright expecting that bias seems both self-centered and thin-skinned.
Keep in mind that the US has a really weird relationship with Japan. We dropped two nukes on them, Japan seemed to be on the verge of taking over everything during their economic boom in the 80s, then we had a decent spat of liberal guilt for dropping the A-bombs in the 90s, that brief bit of optimism about anime on both sides of the Pacific during the early 00s, and then Japan constantly complaining about the US base in Okinawa for the past few years. Then you read some of the English translations of articles from Japanese sources and things start crystallizing. I remember reading some magazine on Japanese political/cultural news/opinions and there was a decent amount of talk about how Japan sees itself as being held back/infantilized by the US, a sentiment that can be found in some of the English versions of Japanese publications online.
That doesn't explain away that there is an affirmed and visible affection to some aspects of militarism in Gundam that draws on several sources, which in deeper analysis could be disturbing. It's true that it can be connected to their own history, like Zeonista wrote. Is it more blatant in Japan than elsewhere, then? I wouldn't be too sure about that, and that is why drawing broader conclusions on the subject seems a bit dubious.
I'm not sure whether it's more blatant in Japanese media or it's because we have a lot more awareness of Japanese media than most other foreign media and of history that makes certain things standout more than they would if they were in another country's media.
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

One of the genius things regarding the world-building made by the people involved in UC is how Zeon (particularly the original faction) represent BOTH major Axis powers: the Nazi/Prussian aesthetics are there, they are the most blatant and obvious things the viewer notices.

However, when one makes research, and one reads between the lines, one starts to notice certain, perhaps light or subtle, parallels between the Zabi family, and the Imperial Japanese family during WWII: both families have the "Princes" directly in charge of military afairs, both are involved in war crimes, and pursue ambitions of their own, while we have a figurehead who, initially, was perhaps even eager to start a war in order to cement and secure his own position and that of his newly-emerging nation, and then, as the conflict progressed, grew more and more desillusioned with it and even advocated for peace. There are clear family quarrels as well.

Then there's a more sensitive part: the war crimes.

Zeon claims to be liberating the spacenoids from the Earth Federation, and this liberation consists of the gassing, nuking and exposure to bioweapons on these very populations they claim to liberate.

The Japanese claimed to be "liberating" the Asians, and while doing so...committed all the attrocities they are known for doing.


The war could even be seen as a parallel to the Pacific War: for instance, the Battle of Iwo Jima could be seen as a parallel to the Battle of Solomon, and the Battle of Okinawa could be (somewhat) paralleled to the Battle of A Baoa Qu.

This is just conjecture from my part from what I've read about WWII and seen in Gundam, but I think it's (at least in part) correct.
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

Speaking of Gundam Seed, one of the things I thought was amusing about that series - and Destiny in particular - is that both sides of the conflict are basically America. They both get multiple chances to overreact to catastrophic acts of terrorism by launching imperialistic campaigns of conquest, dressed up with a lot of propaganda about freedom and justice, so the stereotypical critique of 21st-century American foreign policy seems like it applies to both ZAFT and the Alliance. Certainly, neither side is much like Al Qaeda!

Perhaps you could interpret this as a doubled-up political satire, but personally I think it just shows that fiction writers anywhere in the world are much more comfortable imagining Cold War-style power struggles between rival empires than the kind of asymmetrical whack-a-mole conflicts we've been dealing with in the real world. Sprinkle a light dusting of 9/11 allegory over both sides, and it makes it seem a bit more topical.

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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

toysdream wrote:Perhaps you could interpret this as a doubled-up political satire, but personally I think it just shows that fiction writers anywhere in the world are much more comfortable imagining Cold War-style power struggles between rival empires than the kind of asymmetrical whack-a-mole conflicts we've been dealing with in the real world. Sprinkle a light dusting of 9/11 allegory over both sides, and it makes it seem a bit more topical.
Personally, I think it's a mix between the typical rival powers stuff being easier to plan out & write for TV and not having the right creative staff to handle that kind of conflict. I felt 00 S1 was pretty good at handling the asymmetric conflict between Celestial Being and the major powers within the limitations they had, but you can't really do whack-a-mole conflicts well when you're restricted to ~50 episodes max. To really do the concept justice, you need a western style multi-season structure that's totally incompatible with the way Japanese television is produced (due to the committee system).
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

Antares wrote:I may be interpreting Zeonista's point as much as we've been interpreting intent (historical or fictional) in this thread here, but my feeling is that the mechanisms of power Tomino and other Gundam-creators delve into are not limited to just space-nazis or space-imperial-japan. These are fairly recurring historical battles of vying for dominance in power struggles, that then spills over from the domestic field into international conflicts. Pegging a single conflict as the alpha and omega of the narrative can be a bit misleading (but it is natural, given how readily recognizable point of reference and culturally ingrained WWII is to many of us).
Well, I followed the allegorical exercise as far as I could for the sake of the topic and keep it reasonable. It seemed reasonable to point out that if Tomino had a historical basis, he didn't have to look far back down the historical track for a framework of fictional crisis leading to all-out war. It also gave Zeon a motivation that was credible for an antagonist state that felt it had no choice but to pick a fight.
My own point is closer to what AmuroNT1 said about Code Geass: assuming fault. It seems that quite often American viewers find slights in anime directed at them, and find the direct causal relationship (to WWII, for example) of anti-American bias.
There is no need, as I have said before, to worry about the presence of anti-American bias in anime. When it is present, there is no room for doubt! However, true anti-American bias is rarely evident in anime, or Japanese cinema in general. It is not even anti-national, most of the time, since America the superpower is a rather abstract entity for most anime stories. Instead, such "bias"tends to be an amused exasperation at the general tendencies of Americans to think with their/our hearts over our heads, to act impulsively, to be overly familiar with firearms, to be completely ignorant of proper (Japanese) culture, and to be three times louder than everyone else in the room. Hardly a cause for outrage! :)

bullethead: Some people will find something to complain or argue about, no matter what the circumstance. Whether or not the argument remains limited to words or expands to bullets is whether or not we get a world war... or a Gundam anime.

toysdream: I readily agree that sweeping conflicts between great powers plays better for mecha anime than the brushfire wars and terrorist hunts that make up much of what is contemporary conflict right now. If one faction or another in a given show tends to be cursorily American, it is a reflection of the position of America in the current world. Guess we'll have to deal. :P

schwarz ritter: The Emperor Hirohito at the time was mostly an official red stamp for his government. He only took direct action twice: once, to request that the Pearl Harbor attack be postponed for several months to give diplomacy a last chance, and again to request that Japan concede defeat and surrender. The war was directed by the pro-military faction in power, which was led by Hideki Tojo until 1944, when he resigned his post after the conquest of Saipan. They continued without him until August of 1945. Degwin Zabi likewise attempted to end the war under his own initiative, but fatally misread his son's resolve. This is not unlike the tense days before and after Japan's official surrender, when there was worry that hardliners in the Army might seize or kill the Emperor and the newly emergent peace faction and defy the Allies to the bloody end. One might well argue the hardliners were living in a fantasy world, but they were still in charge. Tomino had sibling antagonism and Char Aznable render continued resistance impossible due to lack of direction, very tidy. ;)
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

Much discussion here on whether Imperial Japan = Zeon and what not. My own opinion is that Zeon is is a combination of both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. This is clear with Gihren being Space Hitler, espousing racial rhetoric similar to that of the Nazis (i.e Chosen Superior Race), the Nazi imagery, (i.e Zeon Nazi flag, fuehrer salute). Imperial Japan is reflected with the lofty claim of "spacenoid liberation". Indeed the goal of "spacenoid liberation" only comes with the OVAs. The combination however is reflected in the leadership. Zeon has a Hitler figure with Gihren and also a Hirohito figure with Degwin.

@schawarz
I disagree with the Zabi family- Imperial family comparison. Imperial family members where involved in the Japanese armed forces but they served mostly ceremonial and figurehead positions. True power was in the hands of the professional officer corps. The Imperial Armed forces were never run like the Zeon military where entire branches of the military where placed in the hands of family members. Also there doesn't seem to have been Sovereign-worship with Zeon or else more people would have been pissed off when Gihren blew away his dad.

@Zeonista
The Nazi German parallels are still stronger in my opinion.

- Zeon wonder weapons are more similar to the Germans with the fact that they outclassed Federation stuff quite considerably. Bright mentions something that Zeon technology is years ahead of the Federations. Japanese World war 2 tech rarely outclassed Allied tech.

- Importantly "Chosen Superior Race" is also much similar to the Aryan master race, though the Japanese did also believe that only they could lead Asia.

- Atrocities, Zeon participated in a genocide of Spacenoids, much more similar to the Nazi actions.

- Do you care to elaborate how Zeon officers behave like Imperial Japanese officers? Zeon soldiers in the original trilogy rarely acted out of "samurai loyalty" but acted instead out of the need to survive. Basically they acted like normal soldiers. Additionally I never saw any instances of Zeon soldiers fighting to the death or any culture against surrendering in the original trilogy. In fact if there was instances in the series of an army acting like the Imperial Japanese, it was the Federation Forces, with their slap-happy officers. Also in the novels Revil basically makes an allusion to Admiral Yamamoto with Tora Tora.

- Causes for the war are different as well. While Japan claimed American economic strangulation, Zeon launched the war to place humanity under the Zabi family dictatorship. That goal is stated several times in the TV series. More in line with Hitler's New order if you ask me.

Bottom line I do understand the Imperial Japan analogies, but its quite clear that Nazi allusions are apparent with Zeon. It makes sense, Tomino probably wanted the villain of his series to be the great villain audiences could understand. And in the modern era, that villain is Nazi Germany.
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

toysdream wrote:Speaking of Gundam Seed, one of the things I thought was amusing about that series - and Destiny in particular - is that both sides of the conflict are basically America. They both get multiple chances to overreact to catastrophic acts of terrorism by launching imperialistic campaigns of conquest, dressed up with a lot of propaganda about freedom and justice, so the stereotypical critique of 21st-century American foreign policy seems like it applies to both ZAFT and the Alliance. Certainly, neither side is much like Al Qaeda!

Perhaps you could interpret this as a doubled-up political satire, but personally I think it just shows that fiction writers anywhere in the world are much more comfortable imagining Cold War-style power struggles between rival empires than the kind of asymmetrical whack-a-mole conflicts we've been dealing with in the real world. Sprinkle a light dusting of 9/11 allegory over both sides, and it makes it seem a bit more topical.

-- Mark
Great interpretation on both sides being America!
I thought ZAFT of the Destiny timeframe is a mixture of post-911 America and post-1996-Taiwan-Crisis China, for its reliance on strategic weapons and its tendency to turn the situation from defense to offense (Alliance shot first in both wars).
P.S. The standard Orb assualt rifle is actually a near-clone of Taiwan's T65K2.
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Re: Zeon an allegory for japan?

I can add something to this discussion.
I have this book called 宇宙世紀の政治経済学 Politics and Economy of the Universal Century.

Gihren and his speeches along with his writings are heavily modelled after Hitler, which is seriously obvious when his father called him a tail of Hitler. The tactics and strategy used are also quite obviously the Nazi Germany Blitzkrieg in the beginning of the war.
The Nazi connection is strengthened in 0080 and 0083, where much more Nazi themed names and patterns were used on Zeon.

A lot of people thinks that the EF is USA or the Western world, but actually it is not.
It is the exaggerated version of the Japanese government in the 70's, with its increasing Burruecratic annoyance to the people, slow reaction to changes.
The author of the above book actually listed Japanese politicians that matches the roll of Revil and Gop, Kakuei Tanaka and his reforms were also listed as comparison to the V project. And likening the EF as the Liberal Democratic Party of Japan(which is a sub chapter in the book)
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