You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Plus Full Frontal expressly states that the UC colonies could survive without Earth.

[MythSearcher]

Well, like I said, these are not convincing to me at all, due to the fact that I know nitrogen is rather scarce in the Earth Sphere once outside its atmosphere, the knowledge of man made objects versus vacuum and Gundam Officials stating EF stopped the migration because they need man power on Earth to maintain human life in space.
Also, it would be much easier for Zeon if they don't need Earth at all.
They just need to fire mass weapons to Earth continuously, say, with the mass drivers on the moon or colony droppings, and kill everyone on Earth before landing there, which wouldn't really take long and the EFF will have no real means of countering, other than maybe nuke the entire side 3 with a few thousand nuclear warheads they got on Lunar II.

The Full Frontal quote is completely unconvincing to anyone who read the novel, not going to give further spoilers, but it is basically just from an aggressive extremist politician, who don't even need to care about colony survival.
Even if we ignore that, believing Full Frontal is like saying believing in Bin Laden on the view of survival of human beings, hardly convincing at all.

In the science point of view, dependency on Earth is much more reasonable than completely independent, it saves money, time and are much easier to maintain.
And it would be much easier to have control on tons of extremists.

But believe what you like, just as I believe anime are just like documentaries filmed after the events by different directors(especially you have to take this view to rationalize the difference in appearance of the same MSs in W TV and W EW, same thing basically happens to FG, 08th, Igloo, etc. same machines, different appearances) You can believe only anime is canon, or you can believe the joke version where Amuro is convinced by Char that dropping Axis can stop global warming and people don't need to turn on air conditioners during summers.

[ShadowCell]

well, fine, you can believe that, but then when you come onto the forum arguing that everything is such-and-such, don't expect to convince anyone of your point of view. especially since treating the anime "just like documentaries after the events filmed by different directors" is probably one of the sillier approaches to the great big swamp of Gundam "canon."

then again, if you're rejecting a basic part of Gundam's premise (that the colonies can be independent enough from Earth to survive launching a war against it), i suppose there's bigger problems here.

[MythSearcher]

[quote="ShadowCell"][/quote]

You don't seem to understand why Zeon launched the ground attack force at all, they needed resources that can only be found on Earth, period.

So, as long as you don't destroy Earth to a point where you can't get any resources, it is completely irrelevant if you are dependent or independent from it, since you can still get resources.

I am using official settings and logical reasoning, and those who somehow ignore that and believe a single person's speech that's simply revealed to be unbelievable in the novels, fine.

The anime contradict themselves, and if you think you can find canon with just believing the anime, that is much more ridiculous than believing written settings that is supposed to bring them together.
Just see how you can rationalize FG TV and Movies are both canon, same thing goes for Zeta, W, etc.
Even if you think Sunrise got the say here, most of these settings are endorsed and even published by Sunrise anyway, and the so call reference of "only anime are canon" source turned out to be "Official is determined by Sunrise" even if taken to the extreme.

[Xenosynth]

You did notice that Mark even distinctly defined the difference between official and canon in that topic he listed earlier, right? Official and Canon are not the same things. You're implying that they are and that we believe they are. Again, as I've seen and heard from MANY anime fandoms, the Japanese don't necessarily have a 'canon.' We've never argued that one is canon over the other. Both Zeta movies are 'official' and just as official as one another.

This shouldn't even be a topic ABOUT official and canon, and yet you've turned it into that by holding onto that point and using it to attack other people's beliefs on the matter when it has nothing to do with it.

[ShadowCell]

at this point, Mythsearcher, i will just point out that at no point in this thread have you ever cited anything like an "official" source about Gundam.

your entire argument here, to the extent that you don't keep shifting its goalposts, is that the space colonies depend on the Earth for such basic resources as air, and therefore Char's plan is a whole new order of insane because the entire human race would die or something (as though the guy who's threatening the Earth with nuclear winter because of a seventeen-year-old grudge match with one guy needs anything more to make him look insane).

well, if that's so, then that directly undermines the entire starting premise of Gundam--that the Earth and the space colonies can go to war. because the space colonies can't very well go to war if they rely on the Earth to breathe, can they? and if they do, then you have to conclude that everyone in Gundam is a drooling utter moron. because apparently everyone in Zeon would've had to forget that the Earth Federation they're trying to destroy also gives them air, and the Federation would have to forget that if they just stop sending the Zeons air they would win the war pretty easily, and for some reason the Federation is continuing to send supplies of air to Zeon even though Zeon is flinging colonies at them and putting poisonous kinds of air into other space colonies and trying to destroy them, and it apparently occurs to no one in the Universal Century that the space colonies can't be all that independent from the Earth if they need to be regularly resupplied with air.

so you could either assume that somehow the same magical futuristic Gundam technology that gives us bio-sensors and Minovsky particles and functional giant robots and Angelo Halos and Newtypes and psycommu weapons and some kind of i don't know whatever it is that deflects Axis--all of which you seem willing to accept, and are indeed committed to accept if you take this "documentary" thing seriously--can also produce space colonies that are in fact self-sufficient enough not to require regular shipments of air from the Earth, which thus makes it not suicidally stupid to ever pick a fight with the Earth in Gundam.

or you could assume that that's not the case, and everyone in the Universal Century just acts as though it was.

which one strains credulity more?

[domtropen]

As Tangerine and Brave Fencer Kirby point out in UC universe colonies can survive without further earth resources, but that doesn't mean they don't want or don't need earth resources if they are obtainable for easier life. Resources need for survival would be different from resources need for war effort. I guess what Zeon reaps from Earth is necessary for war but likely less so for survival of human in the colony.

IIRC Char wants to force human out of the Earth, not total earthnoid genocide. Apart from a few madman I doubt any normal spacenoid would like to wipe out all living 2 billion earthnoids [by 0096]. Even Zeon and the fed ended up with Antarctic treaty to stop massive wholesale slaughter.

[zetatype]

You don't seem to understand why Zeon launched the ground attack force at all, they needed resources that can only be found on Earth, period.

So, as long as you don't destroy Earth to a point where you can't get any resources, it is completely irrelevant if you are dependent or independent from it, since you can still get resources.

I'm pretty sure Zeon invaded earth primarily for resources required to fuel its war machine and not for basic necessities like food water and air. I'm also pretty sure that said resources could be found in space just not in the abundance that could be found on earth.

[Tangerine]

@Shadowcell: Bravo, you just pointed out the main problem!

@Domtropen & Zetatypes: I agree on both notions. Minerals and ore, even luxuries goods may or may not be produced or gathered by the colonist in space. However, the cost should be higher than getting them from Earth that have the working infrastructure and the know-how to do them best. The abundance of oxygen to breathe, water for cooling and gravity also make it easier compared to say, an asteroid mining facility. So, it's better to trade rather than forcing the colony to plant, cultivate, breed and mine everything themselves.

The case is economy 101. Say Side 3 or 5 and also Earth is able to produce Bread, Butter and MS. The cost of them vary, with Side 3 able to produce MS with cheapest price, Side 5 produce Butter the cheapest and Earth can produce a large quantity of Wheat for Bread inexpensively compared to other. This is simply because of raw materials availability, industrial level and learning experience. In a good sense, for everybody to win is to let Side 3 produce MS, Side 5 produce Butter and Earth produce Bread and then everybody trade to their likings. It's better than everybody trying to build everything themselves but ended up with fewer items, not to mention of lower quantity.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Leaving aside the mass genocide, not only of humans but basically every living creature on Earth, Char's plan do sounds logical in the long term:

-He would leave the planet in such condition no one would want to live there and jeopardize their survival, forcing them to leave for space and in turn give up any influence they might have had on Earth. Therefore spacenoids would effectively have control.

-The anihilation of basically every living creature on do sounds contradictory to Zeon's own theories about considering Earth a sanctuary, but as Char said, in the long run the planet should be able to recover, and by that point mankind would have learned not to be dependant on the planet anymore.

-And even in the hypothetical scenario that MythSearcher speaks of, it should still be possible to retrieve basic resources (not food) from the planet if needed, but with spacenoids in control of the situation. In such case, they would probably prevent any attempts to settle again on the planet, effectively maintaining the Earth's sanctuary status that Zeon spoke of.

Too bad Char's pride and wrong order of priorities got the best out of him. He would probably have succeeded had he not handed the Psycho Frame data for the Nu Gundam.

Also, am I the only one that is bothered by the low resistance of the supposed gundarium armor of the Alpha Azieru? I still refuse to believe that such a large MA could be destroyed by a single grenade. The fact that it also lacks the I-field barrier supposedly installed in both its prototype, the Psycho Doga, and its improved version, the Beta Azieru, sounds suspicious as well. Maybe Char had to cut down expenses and not only was the I-field omitted, but also the MA itself was built with cheaper Titanium-ceramic alloy. Maybe even some weapon systems could have been omitted as well.

[MythSearcher]

at this point, Mythsearcher, i will just point out that at no point in this thread have you ever cited anything like an "official" source about Gundam.

Gundam Officials not sounding like an official source to you? I've not only listed the source, but also the specific page number.

Well, sorry than, I guess I'll just shut up and let you have fun with your own interpretation in the anime only and ignore THE official source that contradicts your interpretation.

You did notice that Mark even distinctly defined the difference between official and canon in that topic he listed earlier, right? Official and Canon are not the same things. You're implying that they are and that we believe they are. Again, as I've seen and heard from MANY anime fandoms, the Japanese don't necessarily have a 'canon.' We've never argued that one is canon over the other. Both Zeta movies are 'official' and just as official as one another.

This shouldn't even be a topic ABOUT official and canon, and yet you've turned it into that by holding onto that point and using it to attack other people's beliefs on the matter when it has nothing to do with it.

And I hope you do understand that even though Mark kept saying they don't have a term in Japanese that indicates canon, I did point out the term is "正史" in Japanese.

In a series of Gundam Ace comics, they kept using the Movie version of FG as canon, and made fun of Guntank in space after Jaburo and G-Fighter with that since they did not appear in the Movie, thus being uncanon.

Yes, they have official, and they have canon.
G-Fighter is official, but it is not canon, while Core Fighter is canon.(in terms of the WB team)

Yes, this should not be a topic about official and canon, but if people chose to ignore official sources, it is their problem, not mine. I chose to doubt specific character speeches because I know in the plot that they are not believable, and really have little chance of having enough knowledge in the field since it is completely different from their career.

[MythSearcher]

I'm pretty sure Zeon invaded earth primarily for resources required to fuel its war machine and not for basic necessities like food water and air. I'm also pretty sure that said resources could be found in space just not in the abundance that could be found on earth.

You do know that Side 3's population seems to be much less than its capacity though?
Which is highly likely due to the sanction?

[Kratos]

if people chose to ignore official sources, it is their problem, not mine. I chose to doubt specific character speeches because I know in the plot that they are not believable, and really have little chance of having enough knowledge in the field since it is completely different from their career.

While I can't yet say a thing about Full Frontal, you have to understand that very few of us have access to this Super Official Source (which, again, always seems to be taken more like general guidelines than as a concrete franchise Bible by those actually producing the show), so having the page number is great and all but we can't exactly confirm or debate anything you say on that subject.

Second, the idea you're putting forth - or at least the degree to which you're interpreting it - is ludicrous. Shadowcell summed it up nicely. If the Colonies were dependent on the earth to the extent that you're suggesting, then war between the two is laughable

[Amion]

I'm pretty sure Zeon invaded earth primarily for resources required to fuel its war machine and not for basic necessities like food water and air. I'm also pretty sure that said resources could be found in space just not in the abundance that could be found on earth.

You do know that Side 3's population seems to be much less than its capacity though?
Which is highly likely due to the sanction?

You haven't heard of Sweatwater? Forgive me if I'm wrong in this, but wasn't it said that Side 3 was having population growth issues, and that Sweatwater was the only solution the Federation gave by combining the Island 3 type with the Closed type?

[Chris]

Yes, this should not be a topic about official and canon, but if people chose to ignore official sources, it is their problem, not mine. I chose to doubt specific character speeches because I know in the plot that they are not believable, and really have little chance of having enough knowledge in the field since it is completely different from their career.

You really need to cool it with your arguments here and in every other thread. Yes, we know you place a very high value on what's printed in books, but you express it in such a way that it looks like you have disdain for anything that comes from the anime. As others have mentioned, the barrier to reading this information is high. None of these books are in English, nor are they likely to ever be. So people base their opinions on the only thing they have access to - the anime.

Personally, I think you place too much importance in printed materials. I've never seen a multimedia franchise that began as a filmed work that doesn't place superiority on filmed work. Star Trek, for all its encyclopedias, technical guides and spinoff fiction, places all "official status" on the TV shows and movies, even when they frequently (oh so frequently) contradict each other. Star Wars, despite the size of its EU, places official status on the movies, since we already know the new movies will not be following the EU. There are other examples I can think of, but why should Gundam be any different?

You should also keep in mind that when you come into a thread like this and ridicule people's opinions just because they haven't read something in a book you know isn't available to them, it makes you come across as an elitist jerk. I'm not saying you are, but you can't deny giving off that impression. You also say it's not your problem what people choose to ignore, but your actions give lie to your words, because you've been going out of your way to convince people why you think they're wrong and should believe what you claim.

[MythSearcher]

While I can't yet say a thing about Full Frontal, you have to understand that very few of us have access to this Super Official Source (which, again, always seems to be taken more like general guidelines than as a concrete franchise Bible by those actually producing the show), so having the page number is great and all but we can't exactly confirm or debate anything you say on that subject.

Second, the idea you're putting forth - or at least the degree to which you're interpreting it - is ludicrous. Shadowcell summed it up nicely. If the Colonies were dependent on the earth to the extent that you're suggesting, then war between the two is laughable

So its a believe it or not scenario, like I said, I can't do anything about that.
Other than the most official setting book, Gundam Officials, the Rapport Deluxe Universal Century Vol. 1 History also take on the "even if the colonies are almost self sustainable, but there are also materials from Earth that are essential"(P.54) view.

Gundam Officials is hard to scan, I had to take photos instead:
P.88
P.441
Rapport DX

In addition to P.88 of Gundam Officials stating they stopped building colonies because they cannot be completely self sustainable and needed the Earth, on P. 441, it was also said that some of the colonies will take a tax called Air tax, which is also quite hated by the spacenoids, but obvious to us that they do need something to maintain the air supplies, and it is taken by the EF.

The second part, no, I don't see that as laughable, I see that as fighting for your own survival, which is something you really want to do and desperately need to do, and in a really fast manner.
Or you can say that having a power of 1:30 and military force 1:10 and still starting a war is also quite laughable, it is pretty much the same thing, it is a desperate and dire situation, but if you believe in something, you fight for it, it might not be rational or smart.
If your main and only supply of water is in the country next to you, and they are sanctioning that from you, your countrymen are dying, there's 2 ways of doing thing, 1) surrender and pay ludicrous price for it, or fight to get your own supplies, say, by first rationing and storing an enough amount according to your strategy, start the war, and either win it before you run out of your own supplies, fight and get a foothold of your enemies supply, or die trying.

You haven't heard of Sweatwater? Forgive me if I'm wrong in this, but wasn't it said that Side 3 was having population growth issues, and that Sweatwater was the only solution the Federation gave by combining the Island 3 type with the Closed type?

On the other hand, Mahal is way under populated, having less than 1/10 the population of a regular Island 3, and 1/20 of the Close colony types of Side 3(and Mahal is a close type) and the 1:30 population figure in Gihren's speech(which I know is pretty bloated but no one even suspected or questioned it, even after the war or from historians like Minaka Junkers.

Yes, they probably had way too much population at one point, back in the 60's when they are still quite new, and welcomed people from other sides that liked their idea on countrism, but by the start of the war, Zeon is not only exhausted in their military personnel, but also exhausted in their population as well.

Oh, and BTW, who ever believed in Full Frontal, that the spacenoids can form their own community, ignoring Earth overall?
Even if you believe in colonies being complete and utterly self sustainable, Zeon(Side 3) did tried to have independence in the 50~80's, and ended up in a complete failure because other sides don't have the same view.
So Full Frontal(even if you ignore whoever is behind him due to the anime is not there yet), is only talking about something so removed from reality, that anything in his speech is suspicious.

You really need to cool it with your arguments here and in every other thread. Yes, we know you place a very high value on what's printed in books, but you express it in such a way that it looks like you have disdain for anything that comes from the anime. As others have mentioned, the barrier to reading this information is high. None of these books are in English, nor are they likely to ever be. So people base their opinions on the only thing they have access to - the anime.

Personally, I think you place too much importance in printed materials. I've never seen a multimedia franchise that began as a filmed work that doesn't place superiority on filmed work. Star Trek, for all its encyclopedias, technical guides and spinoff fiction, places all "official status" on the TV shows and movies, even when they frequently (oh so frequently) contradict each other. Star Wars, despite the size of its EU, places official status on the movies, since we already know the new movies will not be following the EU. There are other examples I can think of, but why should Gundam be any different?

You should also keep in mind that when you come into a thread like this and ridicule people's opinions just because they haven't read something in a book you know isn't available to them, it makes you come across as an elitist jerk. I'm not saying you are, but you can't deny giving off that impression. You also say it's not your problem what people choose to ignore, but your actions give lie to your words, because you've been going out of your way to convince people why you think they're wrong and should believe what you claim.

The problem here is the interpretation of the anime, I don't have a problem believing what was shown in the anime, but I am seriously doubtful about what specific characters said in the shows.
Especially we know that people lie, or are ignorant, particularly politicians, and I don't see why similar figures in anime can be trusted without doubt to a point that people can ignore the settings and general science.
I am seriously offended by anyone who thinks that "because it is an anime, so things magically happen despite whatever is said in the official books".

[Chris]

I am seriously offended by anyone who thinks that "because it is an anime, so things magically happen despite whatever is said in the official books".

And here is the heart of the problem. Why are you offended that people don't go by what's stated in books? If you ask most people, they'd probably put precedence on anything that's filmed over anything that's printed. But why should you care? Also, do you not recognize that there are people who simply want to consume (and discuss) a piece of entertainment without having to read tons of background material that explain minutiae? It's fine that you have a passion for these things, but don't expect everyone to feel the same way, and don't come down on people just because they're not as reverent of resource guides as you are.

[toysdream]

It's ironic that MythSearcher's notion of "books take precedence over filmed works" is contradicted by the explanation in Gundam Officials itself! But if we're playing the game of "I can ignore anything that doesn't fit my personal pet theory," then we may as well move along and discuss something else.

-- Mark

[ShadowCell]

so when we watch Gundam, we see Gundam, but when Mythseacher watches Gundam, he sees Spaceballs

i think this is the first time i've ever seen someone justify Zeon's war because they wanted all the delicious air. that's a new one.

so was the Dolos supposed to transform into a giant robot maid with a vacuum cleaner? i demand fanart of Gihren Zabi as Dark Helmet.

[toysdream]

Actually, no, I'm not quite done here...

Gundam Officials is hard to scan, I had to take photos instead:
P.88
P.441
Rapport DX

In addition to P.88 of Gundam Officials stating they stopped building colonies because they cannot be completely self sustainable and needed the Earth, on P. 441, it was also said that some of the colonies will take a tax called Air tax, which is also quite hated by the spacenoids, but obvious to us that they do need something to maintain the air supplies, and it is taken by the EF.

Putting aside the air tax, it seems like you're completely misrepresenting (or misreading) the passages you're citing to support your theories. That bit from page 88 of Gundam Officials doesn't say anything close to what you say it does.

Basically, the first paragraph is summing up the spacenoid position, and the last one discusses Zeon Deikun's Contolism. I assume you're referring us to the paragraph in between, which reads as follows:

On the other hand, the the Federation government claimed that it was impossible for the colonies to be self-supporting. (In fact, most of the politicians believed this.) It said that the Sides couldn't be managed without the existence of the Federation government that had custody of the Earth, and in return, the Federation government had various special privileges relative to the Sides.

If you're going to pull out random bits of text from Gundam Officials and wave them around to reinforce your claims, it would be nice if you'd represent their content accurately. Otherwise it seems like you're just trolling everyone.

As for the air tax: You didn't post a pic from page 441, but I assume you're referring to the bit where it says that "Taxes vary from colony to colony, but there are some colonies where a tax is levied even on the air the residents breathe." In other words, it appears to be a local practice rather a Federation standard policy. (Incidentally, Judau mentions this air tax in the second episode of Gundam ZZ.)

-- Mark