You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

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Zeino
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You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Zeino » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:16 am

Yesterday, I re-watched Char's Counterattack. There had always been something about the film that bothered me (besides Quess that is) that I could never put my finger on until now. Char's big masterplan to save the Earth and force everyone into space to become a Newtype by dropping Axis is dumb on many levels once you put real serious thought into it.

Case in point: Okay, say Char succeeds in winning his battle to the death against Amuro and Axis hits Earth and causes a nuclear winter. What was he planning to do then when the enraged survivors forced off the planet start a war of revenge in space against him and his followers for ruining their lives? What is he going to do as the years go onward and it becomes clear that most of the vast population in space still hasn't evolved into Newtypes like his father predicted? What was he going to do when the space colonies start fighting each other for dominance like they do in Victory Gundam?

It's like he never really thought beyond the drop itself and his fated final battle with Amuro which either means he knew he'd fail in the end but wanted to try anyway or simply stopped giving a damn about humanity, the future and anything else that didn't have to do with his petty little grudge against Amuro. Gundam Unicorn seems to suggest the latter (See the recent comment made by Full Frontal in the episode 6 trailer about if Char were alive today, he'd no longer be consider a human being)

What do you all think?
Last edited by Zeino on Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 7 times in total.

DuelGundam2099

Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by DuelGundam2099 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:23 am

I always thought throwing Axis onto the Earth was over the top, the only difference between him and a mad nihilistic scientist was his philosophical standards and following. :P

Xenosynth
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Xenosynth » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:45 am

I think with Char, part of his plan with the movement into space would be that the humans in space would also become newtypes and sort of have this giant understanding between them, and everything would turn out okay. Then again, the man had gotten to the point where he felt the only option for humanity to be fixed was dropping a giant asteroid on earth, then I imagine he also had just as many false viewpoints in his head about the aftermath.

Though this is mostly just assumption on my part.

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Brave Fencer Kirby
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:23 am

I don't think he actually planned to succeed -- or at least, he didn't care whether or not he did. He mostly just wanted to fight Amuro again, so he did something that he knew would provoke Amuro. Then he did his best to make sure Amuro killed him -- he taunted Amuro directly ("I'm doing something wicked") and refused to use his technological advantage to overwhelm Amuro (first not using Sazabi's funnels against the ReGZ, then deliberately leaking the psycoframe to be incorporated into the Nu Gundam). I don't think that Char was bluffing, exactly -- I believe he would've gone through with his plan if he had managed to defeat Amuro -- but he was definitely setting himself up for failure.

I think what he wanted was for someone to prove him wrong by defeating him. He set the whole situation up as a giant grudge match of Zeon Deikun's Newtype philosophy (everyone should move to space so Newtypes will happen and everything will be awesome!) and Oldtype mentality (humanity should be allowed to advance at its own pace), and then set himself (and by extension, Newtype philosophy) to lose. I don't think he really wanted to have to kill off a huge swath of humanity (again) to fix things, but he knew he couldn't do it any other way -- so he put his Axis drop into motion, but took steps to ensure it would fail. I imagine that this desire for failure was more subconscious than a really active "plan", but the fact that he deliberately and willfully aids Amuro in the name of "fairness" seems to indicate that it was on his mind at some level, at least.

One wonders if getting Amuro killed in the process was part of his plan, or if he expected Amuro to survive and take up Char's mantle as de facto leader of the spacenoid population.
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Amion
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Amion » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:54 am

I watched it not long ago, but I got the impression he was just totally fed up with the Earth Federation's government to the extent he wanted them dead. He said it in the dub version at least, "Those people on Earth refuse to change, so I've decided to get rid of them all."

Though I fully agree with Kirby that Char definitely set himself up. If not with the failure for Axis, then for his battle with Amuro. But in the end he didn't go through with it because he helped Amuro push Axis back, so perhaps it was all just the desire to settle their rivalry once and for all in spectacular style. :mrgreen:
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domino
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by domino » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:42 pm

I agree with Kirby.

In fact, I don't think Char cared about anything beyond having the opportunity to fight Amuro one-on-one in a "fair" match. He resented the fact that he was burdened with the legacy of Zeon but used it solely for his personal vendetta (which he couldn't let go because of Lalah). Even Nanai noticed this. Char was so obsessed with defeating Amuro (which meant he had to defeat the EFSF) that he turned Quess into a weapon and only participated in the battlefield when Amuro was around.

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Hi_Nu_Gundam
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Hi_Nu_Gundam » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:27 am

As others have said, his main goal in CCA was beating Amuro, everything else from Neo-Zeon to Axis was just done to provoke him and any other goal accomplished after killing Amuro from Earth being nuked to Neo-Zeon taking overthrowing the Federation was just a bonus for Char.
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Did Char and Amuro Really die?
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Really, are Char and Amuro Dead?
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Seriously people, did Char and Amuro die or not!?

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Hi_Nu_Gundam
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Hi_Nu_Gundam » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:29 am

Amion wrote:I watched it not long ago, but I got the impression he was just totally fed up with the Earth Federation's government to the extent he wanted them dead. He said it in the dub version at least, "Those people on Earth refuse to change, so I've decided to get rid of them all."

Though I fully agree with Kirby that Char definitely set himself up. If not with the failure for Axis, then for his battle with Amuro. But in the end he didn't go through with it because he helped Amuro push Axis back, so perhaps it was all just the desire to settle their rivalry once and for all in spectacular style. :mrgreen:

Helped Amuro push it back? When did it ever give any indication he did that? Last we see of Char he is still bitching to Amuro about Lalah being a surrogate mother to him.
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Did Char and Amuro Really die?
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Really, are Char and Amuro Dead?
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Where can I find Gundam hentai?
Seriously people, did Char and Amuro die or not!?

domino
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by domino » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:30 am

I doubt that Char did anything to help Amuro push it back. Afterall, he thought Amuro was pretty idiotic to even think it could work. Meanwhile, Amuro was full of rage at the thought that Char would succeed despite having been defeated. This plus the fact that he was convined that he was the only one powerful enough to protect everyone from Char hence he should be the only one to bear such a weight (literally and figuratively).

It was Amuro's emotions that triggered the psychic push-back however his intense emotions only had that effect due to the phenomena of the two psycho-frames resonating with each other.

Sadly, that caused both psycoframes (and cockpits) to explode.....killing both Amuro and Char

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zetatype
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by zetatype » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:29 pm

Like other have stated, Char in CCA never really was interested in bettering humanity.

Hell, if you look back at the short combat scene the two had inside Axis, Amuro comments on how Char is making the same mistake that many revolutionaries made in the past; how they expect their ideals to fix everything once the oppressor is removed from power. He was criticizing Char for being too short sighted. When Amuro says that Char's plan won't breathe new life into the world, Char simply responds by saying, "I'm not trying to breathe new life into the world."

Now I believe that Char's actions weren't just to get back at Amuro, but at humanity as a whole. If you look back at Zeta, Char definitely believed that humanity could change and better itself. However after the first Neo Zeon war and the three years that came after humanity had not changed one bit and Char became fed up with humanity. In a sense humanity had let Char down. Char had given up on humanity and was taking his frustration out on Amuro and the Earth. At least, that's how I interpreted CCA.

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Hi_Nu_Gundam
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Hi_Nu_Gundam » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:46 pm

domino wrote:
Sadly, that caused both psycoframes (and cockpits) to explode.....killing both Amuro and Char
Hey hey hey, lets NOT go there dude...
Things never to say/ask on MAHQ:

Did Char and Amuro Really die?
I think Wing is better than UC.
Really, are Char and Amuro Dead?
Gundam Seed Destiny was a great show, better than Turn A!
Where can I find Gundam hentai?
Seriously people, did Char and Amuro die or not!?

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JacobYBM
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by JacobYBM » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:37 pm

zetatype wrote:Like other have stated, Char in CCA never really was interested in bettering humanity.

Hell, if you look back at the short combat scene the two had inside Axis, Amuro comments on how Char is making the same mistake that many revolutionaries made in the past; how they expect their ideals to fix everything once the oppressor is removed from power. He was criticizing Char for being too short sighted. When Amuro says that Char's plan won't breathe new life into the world, Char simply responds by saying, "I'm not trying to breathe new life into the world."

Now I believe that Char's actions weren't just to get back at Amuro, but at humanity as a whole. If you look back at Zeta, Char definitely believed that humanity could change and better itself. However after the first Neo Zeon war and the three years that came after humanity had not changed one bit and Char became fed up with humanity. In a sense humanity had let Char down. Char had given up on humanity and was taking his frustration out on Amuro and the Earth. At least, that's how I interpreted CCA.
I think that's a pretty valid description of Char's motives. While I think his pride and sense of camaraderie with Amuro is what drove him in the end, I do think a large part of his surface-level intention was driven by a sense of disapointment. Add that with unresolved feelings over Lalah and Amuro and I'd say he probably felt he had an excuse to indulge in either of his hang-ups.

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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Nowhere Man » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:43 am

Y'know, I never thought Char intended to lose -- nor do I think that Char's plan to drop Axis was mostly diversionary in nature. I think Char truly meant to kill two birds with one stone. (Gee, it all sounds rather metaphorical when you attach that old adage, doesn't it?)

Char is nothing if not proud. He was always taught to be proud, right from the very beginning. He was born the son of Zeon Deikun; raised by a man who constantly drilled into his head that he had an important destiny to fulfill. We see constantly that when Char's pride is wounded, he gets pissy. And whom has wounded that pride more than Amuro Ray? Not a whole lot.

Axis, I think, was to be Char's "master stroke"; the archetypical, Bond-esque bad guy moment where Char wanted to have his cake and eat it too, just to show everyone that he's better than them. Even if Char died, he wanted his nemesis to watch as all the things that he'd fought for, for so long, turned to ashes before his eyes. That's why he tells Amuro that he'd planned it all after (if memory and MAHQ summaries serve) the back half of Axis continues falling toward Earth. How was he supposed to know that their combined psychic energy, resonating through the Psycoframes, would undo all his well-layed plans?
Last edited by Nowhere Man on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by flamingtroll » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:42 am

I think Char had mentioned that he is going to be the one to purge the Earth. He is obviously trying to punish humanity as well. Basically he is just doing a grandiose version of suicide by cop.

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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by MaC » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:47 pm

Nowhere Man wrote:Y'know, I never thought Char intended to lose -- nor do I think that Char's plan to drop Axis was mostly diversionary in nature. I think Char truly meant to kill two birds with one stone. (Gee, it all sounds rather metaphorical when you attach that old adage, doesn't it?)

Char is nothing if not proud. He was always taught to be proud, right from the very beginning. He was born the son of Zeon Deikun; raised by a man who constantly drilled into his head that he had an important destiny to fulfill. We see constantly that when Char's pride is wounded, he gets pissy. And whom has wounded that pride more than Amuro Ray? Not a whole lot.

Axis, I think, was to be Char's "master stroke"; the archetypical, Bond-esque bad guy moment where Char wanted to have his cake and eat it too, just to show everyone that he's better than them. Even if Char died, he wanted his nemesis to watch as all the things that he'd fought for, for so long, turned to ashes before his eyes. That's why he tells Amuro that he'd planned it all after (if memory and MAHQ summaries serve) the back half of Axis continues falling toward Earth. How was he supposed to know that their combined psychic energy, resonating through the Psycoframes, would undo all his well-layed plans?

I agree with this analysis of Char's motives 100%. I do not think Char set himself up to fail, I just can't accept that as true to his character. He is too egotistical to have manufactured a losing situation for himself. I agree completely that he wanted to punish humanity and that's part of what makes Char such an interesting character. Listen to his laugh after he does the calculations that show Londo Bell's nukes had damned the Earth instead of saying it. Watch him hem and haw "But I thought my plan was perfect!" I really don't buy that there is some inherent nobility within him that persisted through his attempts to destroy the planet. Char is a cautionary tale of Universal Century. He's the impetus to change because otherwise humanity will continue to create enemies like him.

I do believe that the Axis drop and the continued leadership of Zeon and Space after it was absolutely secondary to settling his score with Amuro, but I don't believe for a second that someone as proud as Char set himself up to fail. That's the beauty of Char, he was certain in himself and his victory even as he was leaking the Psycho-Frame information to Amuro. It's all in the dialog between Amuro and Char in the end. "Why do you always have to look down on people!".

It's possible he would have killed himself after avenging Lalah though. Remember his speech at Sweetwater, "I can finally join my father!". Consider the pressure from Neo-Zeon to get him to to stop piloting a mobile suit and be their political leader. I just don't see Char ever going along with it, he didn't for the AEUG, I wouldn't have been surprised to see him just abandon Neo-Zeon or kill himself if he had achieved total victory.

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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by zerogradius » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:16 pm

Dropping Axis was never a priority. Everything he did was to set the stage for his climatic final battle with Amuro. I doubt he had any plans for the future past that.

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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by domino » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:50 pm

His discussion with Nanai pretty much made it clear that Char saw his "counterattack" as his final mission to fulfill the destiny of Zeon and his own destiny to battle Amuro to the death

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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:24 am

Maybe, but the thing is that Tomino isn't at all shy about having characters lie about themselves and their motivation without calling them out on it. He lets the viewers catch on to the discrepancies and figure it out for themselves rather than have the script point out all the answers. (A good example of this is the whole "Newtype revolution" thing itself -- Newtypes will supposedly lead humanity to a golden age by eliminating conflict through understanding, and yet when Newtypes appear and their powers allow them to achieve perfect understanding, that doesn't keep them from fighting to the death.)

So basically, just because Char said it to someone doesn't mean that it's true.
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Kenji » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:02 am

It would be interesting to, one day, compare and contrast Char vs. Full Frontal. I can't shake this feeling that Full Frontal (besides being fanwank) was an attempt to see what Char would be like without all of that obsessive baggage...

It's really been this way, ever since he first embarked on his Roarin' Rampage of Revenge: Char is immensely talented and charismatic, but he just gets hung up on things. Something happens and it looms so large in his field of vision that whatever grand ideals he professes get warped toward the realization of whatever personal obsession is in his field of vision at the moment.

The whole Axis operation falls under that category. It might not be so neatly and cleanly about Lalah and Amuro... but they loom so large in his mind that he probably hasn't bothered looking too closely at his plan, either. He's demonstrated, even in the original series, the ability to endlessly justify everything he does as a step toward achieving some grand and noble cause: Like how going obsessively after the Gundam at A Baoa Qu was gonna do... something really awesome, I guess.
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Re: You know Char's plan in CCA is actually kind of stupid.

Post by Deacon Blues » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:38 pm

Hi_Nu_Gundam wrote:
domino wrote:
Sadly, that caused both psycoframes (and cockpits) to explode.....killing both Amuro and Char
Hey hey hey, lets NOT go there dude...
They're both dead. Get over it.

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