Questions Regarding Gundam F91

[Citizen Costigan]

So I just started to watch Mobile Suit Gundam Formula 91 , I'm really not that far into it but these are feelings so far.

-The animation is stunningly beautiful (I feel this is what I admire most about it)
-The Crossbone Vanguard Mobile Suit designs are very creative and original.
-The basic concept of the series to me sounds fine.
-Everything feels extremely rushed and the character and plot development suffer greatly for it, so far that is.

After doing some research I read that F91 was originally slated to be a 50 episode TV series, with aprox. 30 minutes per episode, and that after writing 13 episodes and some arguments, it was decided it was to be condensed into a single 115 minute film. Clearly this explains some of the pacing problems for the series, they obviously had to cut out a tremendous amount of what was originally planned.

My questions
-Does anyone know specifically what issues lead to the decision to condense the series into a film?
-Will Gundam Unicorn's conclusion render F91 non-cannon?
-What are your thoughts on the film?

[mcred23]

-Will Gundam Unicorn's conclusion render F91 non-cannon?

No.

[Dark Duel]

-Will Gundam Unicorn's conclusion render F91 non-canon?

Here's a good rule of thumb:
The answer to the question "Will X render Y non-canon" is always no.

-Does anyone know specifically what issues lead to the decision to condense the series into a film?

Information I've been able to find has been nearly nonexistent, unfortunately. All I have been able to learn is that the screenplays for the first 13 episodes had been written, and disputes arose within the staff that led to them taking what they had and condensing it into the movie. What specifically those disputes were, I have no idea.

-What are your thoughts on the film?

Personally, I like it a lot; I really like the Gundam F91 itself, and I think that the Crossbone Vanguard's Den'an and Berga series are some of the most original designs we've seen in Gundam. Plus the Shot Lancer is a pretty cool weapon.
Unfortunately, it has absolutely terrible pacing issues, and the fact that it ends on a cliffhanger is endlessly irritating. But of the three main Gundam movies(This, CCA, and the 00 movie), it's definitely my favorite.

[Strike Zero]

-What are your thoughts on the film?

As far as I'm concerned, the movie starts out brilliantly, but starts to go downhill once Seabook crashes the Guntank into the wall (which, imo, was a far cooler suit than the F91 itself, I might add). From there is when the pacing problems take over, and the story suffers pretty heavily for it.

The animation is initially amazing, but the quality starts to taper off as it nears toward the end, especially during the final fight with the Rafflesia and the action preceding it. Compare that fight to Crossbone Vanguard's initial raid at the beginning, and there is a pretty stark difference in terms of fluidity, especially if you're watching the movie on Blu-ray.

F91 isn't a bad movie, but I feel as though its a pretty weak one, mostly because they tried to cram far too much content into the span a two-hour run time (I was initially quite baffled to learn that the entire plot takes place over the course of a couple of weeks, rather than a few days. Given that, it's no wonder that everything felt so chopped up and rushed).

[DuelGundam2099]

The non-action parts were boring, the action parts were awesome as hell, it's basically a condensed version of 0080 except it has a neat char clone and the titular gundam doesn't wind up destroyed.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Er, how do you make that comparison? F91 isn't about a small team of Crossbone pilots trying to destroy a Gundam, nor is it about Seabook the Crossbone pilot befriending a little kid before tragically dying at the hands of a Gundam.

[DuelGundam2099]

It was the same feeling I got and that was enough despite plot differences and character ages.

[Chris]

Er, how do you make that comparison? F91 isn't about a small team of Crossbone pilots trying to destroy a Gundam, nor is it about Seabook the Crossbone pilot befriending a little kid before tragically dying at the hands of a Gundam.

You shouldn't have even bothered asking, because it's more of Duel's nonsense to derail a thread and make the discussion about him. That much is evident from his lame reply.

[DuelGundam2099]

Where are people getting the idea I WANT to derail topics?

[Chris]

Where are people getting the idea I WANT to derail topics?

I dunno, maybe because of the fact that you're constantly and deliberately doing it? And right here is the part where you play stupid and act like you don't know what I'm talking about. Go ahead, keep up with your nonsense since that's all you're capable of doing.

[Citizen Costigan]

To be fair Duel, the analogy you attempted to draw was very poor, there aren't any real strong similarities between the two.

[DuelGundam2099]

deliberately doing it

Thing is thought I am not deliberately doing it.

and act like you don't know what I'm talking about

It is not acting if I honestly do not know.

To be fair Duel, the analogy you attempted to draw was very poor, there aren't any real strong similarities between the two.

They did seem pretty similar to me as both had good action in the beginning, minor action in the middle, a decent final battle, and a lot of talking in between.

[ShadowCell]

fascinating! when you abstract away far enough, everything looks similar!

[Citizen Costigan]

Now I know who not to engage with on this forum

[Chris]

Thing is thought I am not deliberately doing it.

You are, and continuing to insist otherwise is a bald-faced lie.

It is not acting if I honestly do not know.

And there you go proving my point by acting dumb. However, given all of your behavior so far, maybe it isn't an act and you really are just that dumb.

They did seem pretty similar to me as both had good action in the beginning, minor action in the middle, a decent final battle, and a lot of talking in between.

Wow, that is like the most generic comparison of anything ever. If you're using such vague reasoning to make comparisons, pretty much anything could be compared to something else, no matter how different they actually are.

[AmuroNT1]

-Will Gundam Unicorn's conclusion render F91 non-cannon?

Regarding this one, it helps to know that Japan (or at least Gundam) doesn't use the same concept of fictional canon that we see in Western works such as Star Wars. As far as Sunrise is concerned, there's official (the animated Gundam works) and unofficial (everything else). It doesn't matter how closely a work tries to adhere to established events (like Blue Destiny) or even if it was written by Tomino himself (like Crossbone Gundam, F91's sequel); to the bigwigs, if it didn't appear on screen it didn't happen.

On top of that, of course, you'll have people who make their own claims regarding Gundam "canon"; the most prominent one in recent years has been people who latched onto the Zeta Gundam compilation movies' altered ending to claim that Gundam ZZ doesn't exist anymore (mainly because they don't like it). This one was wide-spread enough that Tomino was specifically asked about it and responded in the negative, saying that even though the Zeta movies are a different spin on events, ZZ does indeed occur after them as normal.

[LightningCount]

-What are your thoughts on the film?

First saw it in 2004 when it was released on DVD by Bandai. I remember being overly antagonistic toward Gundam SEED at that time, and finding F91 a nice distraction with some standout moments, but I didn't really grasp it all in the first viewing. In some cases I gave it too much credit, and in others I didn't give it enough credit. I just revisited this film in 2010, actually, and posted a similar thread back then. (I definitely will revisit it again at some point. It's a very interesting production).

Here were the results in 2010 (w/ a few in-thread edits) [SPOILERS AHEAD]:

I recently popped in my DVD of F-91, and watched it through. This is only the second time I've watched it from beginning to end. I had some new thoughts while watching it, and was wondering what other people's thoughts on F-91 are at this point in time. It's grown on me a bit, and here are my thoughts:

*Seabook Arno may be one of the strongest Newtype heroes in UC. His first shot out of the gate, he takes out two mobile suits in a single shot. Then, in a short amount of time, he does incredible damage to the Crossbone Vanguard, including taking out an impressive number of Bugs and the monstrous Raflesia. Plus, there's the fact that he was able to communicate with Cecily so quickly and track her down by "sense" when she was thrown from her cockpit. As an aside, Seabook himself is rather likable; outside of the whole Newtype thing, he seems more "normal/realistic/believable" than most other Tomino heroes in Gundam.

*The animation is not as consistent as I remembered. It's still great, and there are moments that rival the best in the Gundam franchise, but at many points it's not as consistently high-quality as its contemporary OVA, 0083. I wonder if that has to do with the fact that it started out as a TV project? Still, extra points go to F-91's for its depiction of in-colony combat.

*Iron Mask Carozzo, for all the flak he takes in fandom, is actually a very credible and unique masked villain. He's the ultimate evolution of the cyber Newtype. His speech where he endures a bullet to the head and his final battle with Cecily and Seabook show he can walk the walk and talk the talk. Scene for scene, he's actually the most intimidating Gundam masked man I can think of--a grandiose, focused mechanical monster.

*I wonder what the connection is between Iron Mask's helmet and the F-91's head. There are points in the movie where they seem to try to visually connect the two as having shared origins, especially during the end credits.

*I own the Special Edition, and it's bonus DVD's commentary, while highly amusing, is not as informative of the material itself as it could have been. Many times there are awkward silences broken up by pointing out that Tomino included a crying baby in this movie.

*I feel, given the number of characters and the rather frequent time jumps, this is a movie that has to be seen multiple times to get a grasp of its characters and the subtleties of what's going on.

*The main character designs are some of the most appealing in Tomino's UC, IMO. Part of it has to do with them being a little older, I think. Seabook, Cecily, the Ronahs, and Zabine are especially good. However, the supporting cast, while distinctive, sometimes is jarring.

*Seabook and Cecily may be the best-developed couple in Tomino's UC Gundam.

*I'm always surprised that Dwight Camry doesn't have a bigger role, given his crisp design and family relations.

*It's odd that there is never really a battle between aces outside of the fight with Iron Mask. Zabine or Dorel never face off against Seabook, which is a shame.

*Birgit Pirjo is one of the better Federation grunt pilots in a Tomino work.

*The climax with the Bugs is rather refreshing. No colony drop in sight.

*F-91's spinning beam saber trick is ridiculously powerful. I wonder why that was never used more in Gundam.

*With all the new tech like beam shields/flags & lance/drill-like missiles, the amount of aristocracy, the robotics of Iron Mask, the self-contained settings, and the radical design of the mobile suits, this almost feels like it could have been an Alternate Universe tale as much as a UC reboot.

*The unique pilot suits are some of the coolest looking in all of Gundam.

*By and large, the music borrows way too much from Star Wars.

*F-91 itself is a cool Gundam, and really shines in the finale.

*This movie had a visible effect on the course of Gundam. Gundam SEED Destiny's title Gundam and Gundam Wing's Romefeller Foundation seem to have their origins in this movie.

*As I understand it, this whole section of the latter UC timeline has the Jupiter Energy Fleet involved in the background; yet there is no appearance, despite them being involved in UC since at least Zeta Gundam.

*This is just a random bit, but I noticed this time that Zabine's name is a play on words related to the "villain-types" of UC. IE: Zabine (ZABI) Chareux (CHAR).

[Citizen Costigan]

-Will Gundam Unicorn's conclusion render F91 non-cannon?

Regarding this one, it helps to know that Japan (or at least Gundam) doesn't use the same concept of fictional canon that we see in Western works such as Star Wars. As far as Sunrise is concerned, there's official (the animated Gundam works) and unofficial (everything else). It doesn't matter how closely a work tries to adhere to established events (like Blue Destiny) or even if it was written by Tomino himself (like Crossbone Gundam, F91's sequel); to the bigwigs, if it didn't appear on screen it didn't happen.

On top of that, of course, you'll have people who make their own claims regarding Gundam "canon"; the most prominent one in recent years has been people who latched onto the Zeta Gundam compilation movies' altered ending to claim that Gundam ZZ doesn't exist anymore (mainly because they don't like it). This one was wide-spread enough that Tomino was specifically asked about it and responded in the negative, saying that even though the Zeta movies are a different spin on events, ZZ does indeed occur after them as normal.

Interesting, so when Tomino states that he hates Gundam Victory and that it should be avoided, that would not be considered "de-canonizing" ?

I first saw it in 2004 when it was released on DVD by Bandai. I remember being overly antagonistic toward Gundam SEED at that time, and finding F91 a nice distraction with some standout moments, but I didn't really grasp it all in the first viewing.

This may not be the appropriate thread, but I always felt SEED got a bad wrap.

Iron Mask Carozzo, for all the flak he takes in fandom, is actually a very credible and unique masked villain. He's the ultimate evolution of the cyber Newtype. His speech where he endures a bullet to the head and his final battle with Cecily and Seabook show he can walk the walk and talk the talk. Scene for scene, he's actually the most intimidating Gundam masked man I can think of--a grandiose, focused mechanical monster.

I totally agree.

[ShadowCell]

Interesting, so when Tomino states that he hates Gundam Victory and that it should be avoided, that would not be considered "de-canonizing" ?

no, because the concept of "canon" does not apply to how Sunrise views Gundam

[Citizen Costigan]

That's rather informative, never knew that was a general rule of thumb.