Let's Watch (In Horror) ZZ Gundam

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Because I'm going to start reviewing Gundam for my Podcast, I figured I'd need to brush up on all the ones I've missed out. Currently the only show I've never really seen a lick of is ZZ Gundam. I'm not looking forward to this but it ain't worse than AGE or Destiny, I'm sure, and I have Macross Frontier to dull the pain.

Since the first episode is just a clip show recap of MSG and Zeta, I'm going to skip that one and start with episode 2 and post my first impressions after episode 6. Wish me luck.

[schwarz ritter]

Brace yourself for twenty episodes of filler, LOLTomino, pedophilia material and...screw it, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you'll end up loving it .

I know you'll enjoy the mechs though. DAT DREISSEN.

[Strike Zero]

Fun fact: you may find that the beginning of ZZ isn't actually as offensively, horrendously, blasphemously and satanically awful as some make it out to be, so long as you don't watch it directly after finishing Zeta.

Or, so long as you watch it without having seen Zeta at all, like I did.

pedophilia material

*clears throat*

Some, like myself, very much prefer the term "loli"

[ShadowCell]

yyyyyyeah i'm gonna be honest i half suspect much of the overblown hatred of ZZ's first arc is based on jilted fanboys who may or may not have ever actually watched it

generally a good rule of thumb is, the more histrionic the opinion is, the safer you are in ignoring it entirely

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Well the first actual episode IS pretty good. Rest in peace Saegusa, at least you were killed by Yazan.

Fun fact: you may find that the beginning of ZZ isn't actually as offensively, horrendously, blasphemously and satanically awful as some make it out to be, so long as you don't watch it directly after finishing Zeta.

Or, so long as you watch it without having seen Zeta at all, like I did.

I have seen Zeta, so perhaps I am doomed?

[Strike Zero]

Not necessarily -- the problem I believe comes when people dive into ZZ straight after watching Zeta. I haven't actually sat down to watch Zeta, but I know the gist of the ending and can understand how ZZ would frustrate Zeta fans who were eager for a continuation of the story.

Obviously, viewers of Gundam who watched the original airing in 1986 had no choice but to swallow it in this fasion, but! We ourselves live in the glorious year of 2012 where we, through the magic of digital media, are able to CHOOSE the order and intervals in which we experience the Gundam television shows of yesteryear.

So! My theory is that if one goes into ZZ while viewing it mostly as its own separate entity, a follow-up to Zeta carried out in a different spirit, there's a good chance that the common problems people seem to have with the show will be mostly averted.

[HellCat]

Having watched both ZZ and V in the last year, I really do think all the rumours on both are best ignored.

With ZZ in particular, certainly don't take the advice to skip the first episodes. They're definitely the show's low point but things seen later really do build on them. There's even a subplot later that means little to nothing if you skip Moon Moon.

ZZ can be silly at times but as someone who hated the clearly forced grim dark of Zeta, I welcome it. ZZ at least keeps its cast consistent.

[Destiny_Gundam]

Let me get this out of the way:

ZZ is better than Zeta.

And it actually is better watching it right after Zeta. I know a lot of people act like Zeta is some sacred masterpiece because it was super dark and stuff, and ZZ ruins it by being all comedic. However it's precisely because Zeta beats you over the head with how DARK and DEEP it is that you need some comedy to clear your palatte.

I've made it clear in a past thread that I can't really think of what makes Zeta 'good' (I don't think it's bad either), but ZZ has a much more likable cast who actually have good chemestry together. Save for a pair of flip floppers, they all have pretty consistant personalities too. While it does get more serious later on, it never loses its feelings of optimism and hope and there's still a heart to it, unlike Zeta.

So yeah, I hope you get it a fair shot and don't only go by its reputation that "It's not Zeta so it sucks."

[DuelGundam2099]

I am probably the only one here who's problems with ZZ did not originate from tone changes, rather the show itself was incredibly boring up until ZZ itself showed up and started obliterating neo zeon suits. Even then it did not get interesting until they get to Space Colony Side 1. That said AG, trust your instincts on what you think, not the main site's review.

[HellCat]

I knew ZZ would work out for me when Judau announces the debut of the new Gundam with "It slices through asteroids! How cool is that?!"

All the more amusing because that trick seems to be an expected part of upgrade debuts in recent shows.

[teslashark]

Let me get this out of the way:

ZZ is better than Zeta.

And it actually is better watching it right after Zeta. I know a lot of people act like Zeta is some sacred masterpiece because it was super dark and stuff, and ZZ ruins it by being all comedic. However it's precisely because Zeta beats you over the head with how DARK and DEEP it is that you need some comedy to clear your palatte.

I've made it clear in a past thread that I can't really think of what makes Zeta 'good' (I don't think it's bad either), but ZZ has a much more likable cast who actually have good chemestry together. Save for a pair of flip floppers, they all have pretty consistant personalities too. While it does get more serious later on, it never loses its feelings of optimism and hope and there's still a heart to it, unlike Zeta.

So yeah, I hope you get it a fair shot and don't only go by its reputation that "It's not Zeta so it sucks."

Someone had said before, merge the first half of Dragonar and second half of ZZ then you will have a good show (Dragonar is known for having a "plot tumor" in the 30-40 episodes and discarded some of the interesting features before) ...
ZZ indeed kept highlights and personalities consistent. The occasional flipflops are easy to overlook.

[Mark064]

I have lots of problem with the plot of ZZ Gundam, even if you ignore the silliness in the first half of the show it's latter part of the show that gets me when they're actually trying to pull together a serious show.

Spoiler

The Earth had some good plot going on with the attacks on Dakar and Dublin, but a lot of this was filled with the nonsense of the Gundam Team leaving the Ahgama to go on their on missions and walk across a desert, for some reason they wanted them separate ignoring any sense what so ever.

But the real problems arise when they return to space and instead of diving into this whole rebellion that Glemmy has briefly mentioned they spend time with Haman hiding out on the Nahel Ahgama, the return of Moon Moon and the Hong Kong colony. And by the time the rebellion finally starts it's halfway through episode 43 with a weird mix of the mining rebellion plot thrown in mixed with trying to kidnap Mineva. So we don't see the rebellion start going anywhere until episode 45 which last largely till 46 when Glemmy dies.

This whole rebellion is really poorly written, first we have the whole problem of the initial Glemmy and the latter one, but okay I can look past that. But his reasons are so vaguely defined in the series and since he disappears for 13 episodes we miss any sort of force buildup at all. As far as I can see this whole rebellion idea starts with a vague reference to August about being part of the Zeon bloodline in episode 32. Glemmy proceeds to forget about the rebellion. After this Glemmy makes a speech in a room full of guys painting mobile suits in episode 45 later about Haman being evil and using Mineva and so on. His intentions are just so vague in the show and they just weren't really trying to expand this into a full plot point like they should have.

[Andrew_Graruru]

His intentions are just so vague in the show and they just weren't really trying to expand this into a full plot point like they should have.

You know, this neatly sums up my issues with almost all of the characterisation of villains in Tomino's works.

[Angelo Sauper]

I have lots of problem with the plot of ZZ Gundam, even if you ignore the silliness in the first half of the show it's latter part of the show that gets me when they're actually trying to pull together a serious show.

Spoiler

The Earth had some good plot going on with the attacks on Dakar and Dublin, but a lot of this was filled with the nonsense of the Gundam Team leaving the Ahgama to go on their on missions and walk across a desert, for some reason they wanted them separate ignoring any sense what so ever.

But the real problems arise when they return to space and instead of diving into this whole rebellion that Glemmy has briefly mentioned they spend time with Haman hiding out on the Nahel Ahgama, the return of Moon Moon and the Hong Kong colony. And by the time the rebellion finally starts it's halfway through episode 43 with a weird mix of the mining rebellion plot thrown in mixed with trying to kidnap Mineva. So we don't see the rebellion start going anywhere until episode 45 which last largely till 46 when Glemmy dies.

This whole rebellion is really poorly written, first we have the whole problem of the initial Glemmy and the latter one, but okay I can look past that. But his reasons are so vaguely defined in the series and since he disappears for 13 episodes we miss any sort of force buildup at all. As far as I can see this whole rebellion idea starts with a vague reference to August about being part of the Zeon bloodline in episode 32. Glemmy proceeds to forget about the rebellion. After this Glemmy makes a speech in a room full of guys painting mobile suits in episode 45 later about Haman being evil and using Mineva and so on. His intentions are just so vague in the show and they just weren't really trying to expand this into a full plot point like they should have.

That's my gripe as well. The real story is happening in the background, while we're following a bunch of drunk teenagers and their shenanigans. ZZ could have easily been the best of the 'Big three' series if not for the poor format of the overall story.

[Kratos]

You know, this neatly sums up my issues with almost all of the characterisation of villains in Tomino's works.

I really do think that MSG Char is the best villain that Tomino has ever written, and it's just gone rapidly downhill from there.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I would have liked that the series was 50 episodes long just to provide more time to the Zeon Civil War. There are several questions left, as well as a few dissapointments due to the short screen time. I will mention some, but beware of spoilers Arbiter GUNDAM:

-Glemy's fleet, which includes a Gwanban and the Endra-class cruiser Sandra, and is seen engaging a large fleet next to Core Fleet, suddenly dissapears from one episode to another without any explanation.

-The infamous Newtype Corps, which became a recurring point, are hardly given any screen time and are certainly not properly shown displaying their combat abilities. They are also given a rushed conclusion, which seemed more directed at tying up loose ends considerign that it also kills two remaining signifcant characters. I hate to admit it, but AGE's Magician's 8 introduction was a better show off of the capabilities of a Newtype Team.

-Other plot holes left were the conclusions of some characters, such as the Illia Pazom (afterwards rumored to have join Char's Neo Zeon), the 3D Team, Aries Morma, etc., among others. In fact, the ending almost seemed to imply that both sides were completely annihilated, save for the Sadalahn.

-As it has been mentioned, Glemy's motives remain unclear. Unofficially I have heard that he was Gihren's unrecognized son who he gave in adoption. Following that same idea, I remember hearing that Haman knew she could use Glemy as a backup plan if using Minerva to retain control of Zeon became no longer not possible. My biggest regret regarding him, is that the character growth that Glemy seemed to have had during his time with the african Blue Team (almost making him a likeable character), seems to have been lost by the next time he shows up.

[teslashark]

I would have liked that the series was 50 episodes long just to provide more time to the Zeon Civil War. There are several questions left, as well as a few dissapointments due to the short screen time. I will mention some, but beware of spoilers Arbiter GUNDAM:

-Glemy's fleet, which includes a Gwanban and the Endra-class cruiser Sandra, and is seen engaging a large fleet next to Core Fleet, suddenly dissapears from one episode to another without any explanation.

-The infamous Newtype Corps, which became a recurring point, are hardly given any screen time and are certainly not properly shown displaying their combat abilities. They are also given a rushed conclusion, which seemed more directed at tying up loose ends considerign that it also kills two remaining signifcant characters. I hate to admit it, but AGE's Magician's 8 introduction was a better show off of the capabilities of a Newtype Team.

-Other plot holes left were the conclusions of some characters, such as the Illia Pazom (afterwards rumored to have join Char's Neo Zeon), the 3D Team, Aries Morma, etc., among others. In fact, the ending almost seemed to imply that both sides were completely annihilated, save for the Sadalahn.

-As it has been mentioned, Glemy's motives remain unclear. Unofficially I have heard that he was Gihren's unrecognized son who he gave in adoption. Following that same idea, I remember hearing that Haman knew she could use Glemy as a backup plan if using Minerva to retain control of Zeon became no longer not possible. My biggest regret regarding him, is that the character growth that Glemy seemed to have had during his time with the african Blue Team (almost making him a likeable character), seems to have been lost by the next time he shows up.

He's not supposed to be in Africa in the novel, I think.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

No, I haven't given up on this, it's just gonna take longer than I thought. I'm really not in a Gundam mood right now, and that probably won't pick up until March when we get the next Unicorn. I'm doing Macross on my podcast right now and after that I'll probably get into Gundam and since ZZ comes up fairly soon, I'll have to finish it. And then all of Destiny too......

[Citizen Costigan]

2 things that bothered me a lot about ZZ that I rarely hear others say

-How the Federation leadership is portrayed when Mineva arrives in Dakar, they look ridiculous and outdated physically, but I also find it hard to believe that the corrupt Titan supporting Federation leaders would be so eager to join with Neo Zeon. I understand that they were corrupt and lacked courage and principles, but for Earth-centric zealots they seemed very willing to join with their #1 ideological foes fast.

-The fact that an entire colony (Moon Moon) was forgotten about and reverted to a superstitious primitive society I find to be too outlandish and Un-Gundamish to be considered humorous.

[HellCat]

I dunno. It's not perfect but I felt the Federation aspects we see in ZZ helped explain how the world of MSG went to that of Zeta. The Federation is full of arrogant 'don't rock the boat' types and without the leadership of someone like Revil they're clearly lacking. Bright for instance gets lectured for 'causing trouble' because he's one of the few leaders who dares to fight the Neo-Zeon. I doubt they particularly want spacenoid rulership but it seems to be their preference over making good on their bluster and actually making a consistent effort to stand up for themselves. Which we of course later see turn into the stupidity of "Sure you can have the biggest asteroid in the solar system, Mr Asteroid Dropping Terrorist. Peace in our time!"