Gundam cliches you could do without?

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DuelGundam2099

Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by DuelGundam2099 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:03 pm

Non-Gundam versus Gundam final fight?
You mean every Universal Century entry? :P
ZAFT's grunt designs in Seed
Sorry but this is incorrect, while not Gundam homages, ZAFT's mobile suits were based on other designs from Kunio Okawara such as Dragonar, Layzner, Dagwon, Dougram, and some others.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Dark Duel » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:38 pm

GX9900-Gundam-X wrote:the good guys using a mobile armor
How has the Moebius Zero not been mentioned yet?

That said, I do agree with a lot of what's been said in the last few posts; these are elements that HAVE been seen in the franchise - just not often, and generally more frequently in UC than in AUs.
A strong female pilot that makes it through the whole series without a pink MS?
Oh Good grief, where to start? Sayla Mass in the original; Emma Sheen, Fa Yuiry, Four Murasame, Mouar Pharaoh in Z, as well as arguably Rosamia Badam(the Psyco MkII is purple, not pink); EVERY female pilot(there are a total of three that I can think of off the top of my head) in 08th MS Team; Christina Mackenzie in 0080...
In short, the majority of female pilots in the franchise have in fact not piloted pink mobile suits.
In fact, in a thirty-year franchise, I can only think of a total of four female characters who piloted pink mobile suits - arguably five.
No newtypes or at least ones that have ability's toward maybe piloting and not psychic
non-gundam vs gundam final fight
A story were the federation for all its faults is not fully corrupt
an actual well trained special forces ms team as the heroes not just a random unit that by chance got the shiny new super weapon
These four I do agree with; they've been done, but IMO all too seldom lately, as most of the examples thereof hail from the UC.
Although that last one is by far the most prevalent of the set. But rampant corruption among the Earth-based government has seemed to be a staple in many recent AUs...the entire CE-verse is the most shamelessly guilty example, but also arguably AGE to a point, 00 Season 2, X, Wing(arguable to a point, depending on your point of view)...
As for non-Gundam vs Gundam final fights, 00 Season 1, AGE parts 1 and 2. But yeah, I'd like to see more of that.
The Rx-78-2 color scheme Id like to see the HERO pilot a red mobile suit or even Rx-78-1 colors just more variety amongst the protags
When it was first announced, this was my favorite thing about Stargazer - the supposed main character piloted a Gundam that was BLACK - a color traditionally reserved to secondary protagonists or villains. We all know how well that turned out. *grumbles angrily*

And yeah, 00 counts to a degree given that the Gundams all have pretty varied paint schemes. Setsuna still has a conventional color palette though. I would actually agree that having one where the main character pilots a Gundam with a nontraditional paint scheme would be cool.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:19 pm

DuelGundam2099 wrote:
ZAFT's grunt designs in Seed
Sorry but this is incorrect, while not Gundam homages, ZAFT's mobile suits were based on other designs from Kunio Okawara such as Dragonar, Layzner, Dagwon, Dougram, and some others.
Perhaps so; but when the topic is Gundam clichés, I'd say we can let some cross-series self-referencing slide :roll:

(The less said about Ideon in this instance, the better, methinks)
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by T0-burnth1sHeart » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:20 am

I do not really like the male protagonist idea. I want a female Gundam protagonist. Not just animating Ecole du Ciel or another manga, I mean an original female protagonist. I'd also like if the bad guys had the titular Gundam instead of the good guys, and the key to winning was destroying the Gundam, not using it. Or maybe having an entirely Earth-based conflict indtead of the whole Earth v. Space dilly. Maybe I'm more into new ideas than changing old cliches..... but ther are other things I would like to see changed, such as the Psychic Powers understanding thing. Understanding endings are alright, and I loved how 00 did it, but I agree romance works better the way it was used in G Gundam, with personality meshing and development over time. Also, better practical application of said powers would be nice. The mental communication that the innovades used was a brilliant idea, as strategies could be executed and employed with much more effectiveness if you could convey your thoughts to fellow fighters. You could set up formations, warn others of incoming attacks, and more. I do wish they would use such pragmatic concepts more than they have been, since Gundam is about war and thus should run more on reason before honor.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by GX9900-Gundam-X » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:41 am

Well my list had alot when I say Female hero I mean like lead as in the role of the amuro type and by color scheme once more I am referring to the leads unit although alot of the stuff i want to see removed was Im talking more in whats to come also I mean a consistent non corrupt federation I wont count the three powers seeing as they were absorbed into the federation also I do recognize what has happened in the past Id just like to see at least one or two of these happen
also with the psycho I mean like what if your so short staffed you have Yazan Gable on your side all the time not a slpit personality who ever is in control like Hallelujah/Alleujah But a full blown I love war and killing all the time Guy on the heroes side it seems like a wish list but I guess I just want writers and designers to take more chances
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Khandri » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:15 am

GX9900-Gundam-X wrote:a strong female pilot that makes it though the whole series with out touching a pink MS
I'm sure Ennil El and all her dark blue mobile suits/mobile armors would like to have a word with you.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kei Katsuragi » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:42 am

Seriously people, don't turn this into a generic wish list. Yea, we have heard the female protagonist thing, we have heard the older/soldier protagonist thing, and yes we have heard just about everything you people are asking for. This isn't "what you would like to see in the next Gundam series" this is a fact a different list entirely. It's asking for things we can do without. So seriously, don't ruin this thread by sharing your mental masturbations.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:56 am

I really hate to be the wet blanket here, but female Gundam protagonists just plain ain't gonna happen. Gundam is Shonen, which means it's aimed at young boys. You want a protagonist your audience can connect with, otherwise they'll become disinterested in the show (and the true kiss of death for ANY form of fiction is audience apathy). Maybe it's an unfair generalization, but for the most part, young boys aren't going to be interested in a female protagonist, and such a show would probably just crash and burn unless it had some kind of cross-demographic appeal, like the recent spate of Magical Girl shows that draw in male viewers (such as Nanoha and Madoka Magica).

Ultimately, that's the problem with this whole wish-list thing going on. It's one thing to say you're tired of certain plot elements (I participated myself a few pages ago), but these things AREN'T going to change. Why? Because, as far as Sunrise is concerned, they work; shows that use clichés like the Newtype War God and the Char Clone perform well. It may be a trite old saying, but it's true: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. They did try something new with AGE, but everything I've seen suggests that this has failed utterly, in terms of ratings, DVD and merchandise sales, and general fan sentiment. This means the next Gundam series will probably be very traditional and "back to basics", rather than trying to break any new ground, so you'd better swallow your pride and get ready for more of these annoying tropes.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Xenosynth » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:28 am

Agreed with AmuroNT1. IF you want works that can stray a bit outside the shonen demographic, you need to try finding some of the manga/novels, which can tend to have slightly different things than the normal Gundam tropes in terms of protagonist. Even those though, tend to still follow many basics, or be pretty short. My personal favorites are Sentinel and Ecole Du Ciel, and I do enjoy some of the MSV-R series, but beyond that I can't think of many that give what you ask for. However, as he said, as far as Sunrise is concerned, too much change to the plot formula would be too risky for a TV series or OVA.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by ShadowCell » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:10 am

plus there's the question of what exactly would be different if you made these changes like "female protagonist" or whatever. i've been kicking around the idea of expanding the typical Gundam map to include the rest of the solar system, but to be honest, nothing important really seems to change--which leaves me to wonder what the point of doing it is.

i mean, consider how the likes of SEED and 00 and AGE have handled its female characters. they've run the gamut from Cagalli Yula "Crying Game" Athha to Lunamaria "You Killed My Sister, Ravish Me, You Sexy Beast" Hawke to Soma "MarieMarieMarieMarieMarieMarieMarie" Peries to Nena "Fandom Whiplash" Trinity to Feldt "Emergency Girlfriend" Grace to pretty much the entire female cast of AGE, for which i can't think of any snappy sobriquets because they don't do anything. how much confidence does that inspire?

even the vaunted Unicorn isn't totally free from this; there's characters whose existence continues to defy reason (that would be you, Micott, unless you can prove to me that you really are the most genre-savvy Gundam female to ever exist), and there's all the rest, whose power and effectiveness comes with some kind of price (Mineva might run around dragging Banagher through the plot after her, but ultimately she winds up being his damsel in distress, and see if they ever give her a robot, the real symbol of power and change in Gundam; and then there's Marida, who does get her own robot, but only as long as she's a broken mess of issues with a tortured past, constantly dancing on the strings for her masters).

is that the sort of thing you want to see in a female protagonist? 'cuz in all likelihood, that's what you'll get.

so, moving into the realm of the less likely, if you don't make your Gundam show protagonist a female just to inspire more hentai doujin and creepy fans, you could make her female specifically to explore how the typical Gundam themes of war and human enhancement and whatnot impact women. that would take a lot of deft and nuanced writing about gender roles and psychology that i doubt Gundam writers could pull off. either way, do people really tune in to Gundam shows to see deft and nuanced writing about gender roles and psychology? no matter how well she's written, would the viewers actually identify with a female protagonist enough to appreciate all that deft and nuanced writing about gender roles and psychology? i kind of doubt it. and so the show tanks and the next one Sunrise produces is yet another foray into the One Year War.

or you could specifically set out to shatter some stereotypes and do some empowering, and make a show that specifically tackles sexism and misogyny head-on. is such a controversial series likely to happen in the context of Bandai's biggest cash cow? this would also be taking place in the same market that demands hordes of submissive little moe girls; is that a headwind some feminist revision Gundam show can actually pierce? besides which, i can already hear the angry misogynists on both sides of the Pacific freaking out at a Gundam show that "pushes feminist crap down our throats." and so the show tanks and the next one Sunrise produces is yet another foray into the One Year War.

so we're back to the original question: what exactly changes with a female protagonist?

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by T0-burnth1sHeart » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:08 am

Fine, I didn't think that through enough, and you're right, this isn't a wish list, and Sunrise has demographics to consider. Putting aside my protagonist ideas, I take strong offense to the comment of "mental masturbations', and I do not wish to inspire hentai doujin or any such thing. Back to what I would like removed. I do think that, my comments on practical applications aside, the psychic powers angle could be done without. In addition, I've read previous postings on this topic and I agree that some added combat realism could be nice. Comments have been made concerning funnels, as well as how an army can still deploy large numbers of troops when the heroes mow down scores of them in every battle. Two things I believe should be completely removed are the psycho-supersoldier tragic romance, and the red painted ace mobile suit that moves three times as fast. The Four-esque plot point is a bit tired, especially since one can predict it a mile away, and the red mobile suit bit just...grates on me for some reason, possibly because I personally see it as overused or perhaps a fallback of sorts, except in cases where there is thorough justification, such as Full Frontal. The masked ace pilot also rubs a sore spot along the same lines. The Gundamjack and falling into the cockpit, along with the doomed hometown/colony, are also things I feel can be safely done away with.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by GX9900-Gundam-X » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:06 am

Khandri wrote:
GX9900-Gundam-X wrote:a strong female pilot that makes it though the whole series with out touching a pink MS
I'm sure Ennil El and all her dark blue mobile suits/mobile armors would like to have a word with you.
As I said I am refering to things for the future and am basing this off stuff of the recent such as the strike rouge and Farsia all things considered except for not being the lead Ennil E Fufilles most of or the stuff on my list
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Fritz Ashlyn » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:11 pm

T0-burnth1sHeart wrote:Fine, I didn't think that through enough, and you're right, this isn't a wish list, and Sunrise has demographics to consider. Putting aside my protagonist ideas, I take strong offense to the comment of "mental masturbations', and I do not wish to inspire hentai doujin or any such thing. Back to what I would like removed. I do think that, my comments on practical applications aside, the psychic powers angle could be done without. In addition, I've read previous postings on this topic and I agree that some added combat realism could be nice. Comments have been made concerning funnels, as well as how an army can still deploy large numbers of troops when the heroes mow down scores of them in every battle. Two things I believe should be completely removed are the psycho-supersoldier tragic romance, and the red painted ace mobile suit that moves three times as fast. The Four-esque plot point is a bit tired, especially since one can predict it a mile away, and the red mobile suit bit just...grates on me for some reason, possibly because I personally see it as overused or perhaps a fallback of sorts, except in cases where there is thorough justification, such as Full Frontal. The masked ace pilot also rubs a sore spot along the same lines. The Gundamjack and falling into the cockpit, along with the doomed hometown/colony, are also things I feel can be safely done away with.
Okay taking all that into consideration, and including some of the comments and complaints before yours, we here at Banrise are pleased to announce our newest television series! "Mobile Suit Gundam: Why is this Called Gundam Again?"
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:33 pm

T0-burnth1sHeart wrote:In addition, I've read previous postings on this topic and I agree that some added combat realism could be nice.
By the sounds of it, you're hoping for Mobile Suit GINO - Gundam In Name Only, to borrow a phrase from the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica's detractors.

...Which, oddly enough, is what it seems a lot of people in this thread are craving: Gundam, put through the "darker and edgier" filter of the modern BSG. Amongst other things, the comments in this thread suggest that what the English-speaking fandom yearns for is Starbuck, after trading her Viper for something with a V-fin, in a "gritty", "realistic" setting, where most of the cast are trained military professionals with deep-seated emotional issues.

Except, that's not Gundam. That's Battlestar Galactica, and no amount of wishing or hoping is going to change that. Gundam is what it is, and you either take it or leave it on that basis. Sometimes they mix the formula up a bit, but Sunrise and Bandai know that too much meddling will have the New Coke Effect - there'll be a backlash, and their business base will vote with their wallets.

And, as ShadowCell notes, the reaction to such a backlash will be to rush out another One Year War saga to appease the core consumers.

So, in short: Gundam will continue to do what it does, because that's what sells. For anything else, it's up to the fandom to create it themselves - if you want to do "Gundam, but dark and edgy", then write it yourself, quite simply.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by T0-burnth1sHeart » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:11 pm

It's still just a personal opinion thread, correct? Not like wer'e sending in a petition to Sunrise (at least I hope not), just discussing what we think we've seen enough of, though I apologize for the wishlisty feel of my first post. We can create it ourselves if we feel like doing so.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Vent Noir » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:50 pm

Dendrobium Stamen wrote:
T0-burnth1sHeart wrote:In addition, I've read previous postings on this topic and I agree that some added combat realism could be nice.
By the sounds of it, you're hoping for Mobile Suit GINO - Gundam In Name Only, to borrow a phrase from the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica's detractors.
Or, originally, the American Godzilla movie's detractors.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Xenosynth » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:51 pm

In a way yes, but the issues you list, as Stamen said, basically you are asking for it only to have the name Gundam. Hell, if you don't want homages to the old designs, as well as most of the tropes, why don't you watch another real robot series like VOTOMS? I mean... basically you are asking for a Gundam series with no Gundam tropes, so watch other more gritty/realistic real robot series. I don't mean this to be taken as a negative really, but you seem to really want none of the main features of Gundam except the name ^^;

Edit: I was a wee bit late in posting this >.>; I kinda had it sitting on my tabs, I apparently missed the submit button and just checked it a bit ago.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kei Katsuragi » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:10 pm

I see this thread getting locked sometime down the road.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by T0-burnth1sHeart » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:14 pm

As long as we're talking about not making a GINO series or what-have-you, I'll concur. I'll say that most of my ideas are best used in a fanfic of sorts. I'm not saying I do not want the old Gundam standbys or anything, as I am a big fan of Gundam, I was just posting my views on the subject. Gundam as it is is perfectly fine, I was just expressing some views on things that I believe were getting just a tad bit tired. No offense intended to anyone.
And yes, maybe it would be best if this topic were locked. I've just now realized the direction this is heading.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Xenosynth » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:29 pm

I guess this kind of thread is the kind that might incite debate of the not-fun variety. I didn't mean any offense though, I guess the thread itself just might cause inherent argument ^^;

I guess to me, some of the tropes and Cliches, though overplayed, are what makes Gundam... Gundam. As opposed to Gundam being Votoms, or Five Star Stories, or Patlabor. Though I do agree with some changes here or there to accommodate (Such as not making there be a Char in every UC series, or even in the AUs). Gundam is a bit complicated if you consider it how big it's gotten in terms of sheer number of works.

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