Gundam cliches you could do without?

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by bullethead » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:57 pm

ShadowCell wrote:and you could tell Lupin III stories that don't involve stealing things and running from the law, and you could tell Naruto stories that don't involve orange ninjas, and you could tell DBZ stories about Chichi's adventures collecting enough food to feed her family while Goku is off being dead or whatever, and on and on. so what? is that what people expect when they see something with "Gundam" or "Macross" or whatever on the cover?
No, but sometimes expectations should be challenged (within reason, of course). A Macross without singers and love triangles is a bit of a shift, but it can add depth to the universe by exploring things the other shows would never do.
like i said, if you think Gundam and all the things that make it what it is are boring, maybe you shouldn't be watching Gundam.
It's not that Gundam and the elements in it being inherently boring, it's that they have become boring because of rote repetition (Why do we have a masked guy? Because there's always been a masked guy) and insertion into contexts where they don't belong. I'm fine with the elements, but I do not want to see the same iterations of those elements repeated time and time again. That's why I found the pre-Unicorn UC OVAs and 00 S1 refreshing. They took some stuff out, put some new things in, added their own twist on the existing elements, but didn't do anything the exact same way as the other shows. Even the 00 movie, while a train wreck due to how much stuff had to be stuffed into its runtime, didn't feel like a retread of previous material nor did it have anything that felt forced in so it could be more "Gundam".

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by ShadowCell » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:01 pm

if you're making so many exceptions to the "it's a boring retread" train, then it doesn't sound like there's any need for any changes anyways

yeah, you can do things differently, but you're not talking about that, you're talking about getting rid of some of the defining characteristics of the show. that was, indeed, what that whole list of grievances was about.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:32 am

Regarding the "fixation" on UC and Sunrise not developing AUs, it kind of reminds me of the situation with MMORPGs (a subject I discuss with my brother quite often). In that market, so far EVERY game that's come along, even stuff with huge licenses like Star Wars or DC Comics, has gone free-to-play. Why? Because they can't compete with World of Warcraft. Blizzard had years of healthy competition with the likes of Final Fantasy XI to develop and refine WoW and build up a gigantic fanbase. Now that it's established, nobody else can get a foothold because they no longer have the time in which to polish the game or build up a customer base, and at the end of the day every game has to deal with the attitude of "Well, I could always just go back to WoW." In fact, it's looking like Blizzard is going to be their own worst enemy for this upcoming original property they're launching.

That's the same way it is with Gundam. UC has been around since the late 70s, while the AUs didn't start until 15 years later. As a result, the UC stuff not only has nostalgia going for it, but it also has a fanbase consisting of both younger viewers to people who grew up watching the original. For any AU to develop that much, it would need a lot of time, which isn't going to happen because it would involve UC taking a hiatus, or at least going on the back burner for a while. You'll notice that only recently did they start doing things like the G Gundam remake or Frozen Teardrop and Glory of the Losers; that's because, as weird as it may seem, G and Wing are now 15 years old. And of course, we're still getting things like Unicorn and 0081 at the same time.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by bullethead » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:52 am

AmuroNT1 wrote: You'll notice that only recently did they start doing things like the G Gundam remake or Frozen Teardrop and Glory of the Losers; that's because, as weird as it may seem, G and Wing are now 15 years old. And of course, we're still getting things like Unicorn and 0081 at the same time.
I'm familiar with the other two, but I haven't heard anything about a G Gundam remake.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:42 pm

It's a manga retelling that's been running in Gundam Ace for a year or two now. It's not as drastic a change as GotL, but there are some more noticeable changes.

-Domon is portrayed as a bit more of a comedic doof. In episode 2 of the anime, he sneaks into Madison Square Garden, knocks out Chibodee's boxing opponent, and takes his place. In the analogous manga chapter, he ends up in the opponent's room by accident while trying to find Chibodee, tries to pass himself off as an autograph hound, knocks the guy out in self-defense, and THEN decides to swap places.
-The fights are a little swapped around. Chibodee's draw feels more fair, as Domon literally can't finish him off because Chibodee kicked his butt in the boxing match and Domon foolishly went out before he'd fully healed and rested. George, OTOH, loses a little less fairly, as the Princess was in the Gundam Rose with him and was feeling the same damage feedback, causing Rain to beg Domon to stop.
-There are a couple of new mecha. The Fantoma is replaced by the Shading Gundam, a black copy of Shining with Kyoji's brain patterns, and the DG-possessed versions of Maxter, Dragon, Rose and Bolt get a bunch of extra armor and details that look like cast-off bits of Death Army suits.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:33 pm

It's also the first I think (unless the novels did so) to cover exactly how Domon met Master Asia and what happened directly after he returned home.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Ryuu74 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:08 pm

Strike Zero wrote:uh, say what now? Both the Archangel and the Ptolemaios II were some of the most overpowered warships I've ever seen. Hell, even the Diva from AGE has been doing pretty well for a ship banking on 50 years old.
Oh, while it's fairly certain that any ships used by the main characters will make it pretty far, other vessels just tend to be so much explosive scenery (I'm quite familiar with the pattern- I'm an SBY fan, after all). I'd prefer it if warships in general were just plain dangerous for anyone to attack, especially since most Gundam series have maneuverable spacefaring single seat attack craft that predate mobile suits.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kuruni » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:08 am

Ryuu74 wrote:Oh, while it's fairly certain that any ships used by the main characters will make it pretty far, other vessels just tend to be so much explosive scenery (I'm quite familiar with the pattern- I'm an SBY fan, after all). I'd prefer it if warships in general were just plain dangerous for anyone to attack, especially since most Gundam series have maneuverable spacefaring single seat attack craft that predate mobile suits.
Then there won't be a reason to use MS. People will stick to warship, and you get AU version of Yamato instead.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Ryuu74 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:56 am

Kuruni wrote: Then there won't be a reason to use MS. People will stick to warship, and you get AU version of Yamato instead.
I'm not talking about "Impossible", I'm talking about "MS's not being able to derp their way to victory by the mere virtue of being MS's." What I'm really talking about is the difference between Wing Commander games and Freespace 2- In Wing commander, 1 and 3 especially, destroying warships is easy, something you can accomplish with your fighter's basic guns. A torpedo is a guaranteed kill most of he time, and one of the craft you can pilot carries four of them, making for a possible four capship kills in one mission, if necessary. In Freespace 2, a single bomber doesn't have enough of a payload on its own to sink a large warship, so it's necessary to coordinate with and assist your squadmates, and you may even choose to fly an interceptor craft that can mount special missiles designed to disable the rather vicious anti-fighter defenses that warships mount that could defeat a torpedo attack. It's not impossible, but it requires a bit of pre-mission thought, at times. What I'm looking for is less Wing Commander, more Freespace.

Also, bad example- fighters are still super-dangerous in Yamato, but aren't the be-all, end-all of space warfare.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kuruni » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:35 am

I think I understand your point, but problem is, if MS doesn't has vast advantage, people won't bother with them. They will just stick to fighter and battleship. I guess what you want isn't really dangerous battleship (for example, one that can make 360 degree spin while beam spamming in less than second. :P ) but more of how they were in pre-Gundam CE era, when GINN need non-standard weapon like Balus to take down battleship.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Ryuu74 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:31 pm

Kuruni wrote:I think I understand your point, but problem is, if MS doesn't has vast advantage, people won't bother with them. They will just stick to fighter and battleship. I guess what you want isn't really dangerous battleship (for example, one that can make 360 degree spin while beam spamming in less than second. :P ) but more of how they were in pre-Gundam CE era, when GINN need non-standard weapon like Balus to take down battleship.
If MS do have such a vast advantage, why bother with warships other than dedicated carriers, is the response. It's like how the ASM turned blue-water combat vessels from gun-ships to missile carriers with a token gun in the course of a decade in the real world. I don't mind MS being superior to fighters or other small combat craft, certainly- In space, streamlining doesn't matter, and MS can certainly fulfill roles that pure fighters can't, for both combat and non-combat military applications- An MS is a space fighter, a tank (that only requires one crewman!), and could be pressed into service as a mobile hauler or ad-hoc construction aid on the ground, as needed.

But yeah, you've got the right of it. I'm not looking for super-ships, I'm looking for a Gundam series where non-dedicated carrier warships can justify their continued existence as battlespace assets.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:59 pm

Ryuu74 wrote: But yeah, you've got the right of it. I'm not looking for super-ships, I'm looking for a Gundam series where non-dedicated carrier warships can justify their continued existence as battlespace assets.
Just stick some named characters on the ship and then its survival odds will go up dramatically. :)
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Dark Duel » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:07 pm

Let me amend that if I may: Named protagonists.
Ask William Sutherland how well that worked out for him (Still one of my all-time favorite scenes in the CE ever)

But yeah, the idea that every ship not crewed by the main cast OR the big bad(and the latter is immune only so long as the final battle has not yet begun) is essentially in the "instant-exploding" class and that shooting out the bridge causes the whole thing to catastrophically explode really, REALLY annoys me, too.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:17 pm

Dark Duel wrote:Let me amend that if I may: Named protagonists.
Ask William Sutherland how well that worked out for him (Still one of my all-time favorite scenes in the CE ever)
You're right of course. :)
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kei Katsuragi » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:09 pm

What if we like, had a Gundam series where, like, the Gundam was just another war machine? You know, like U.C, A.W (kinda) and even C.E? Putting so much importance on Gundams as a concept (Wing, 00 and AGE. G not really, because that wasn't a war story) never really jived with me. I mean, I know why they do it. Purely from a story telling stand point it's easy to explain why the main character is piloting a giant robot that the show is named after, and why the audience should care. U.C and C.E did the approach I prefer, where they were prototypes (albeit overpowered) for a future mass production line. After War did it in a different way, that still worked for me (being a super weapon built in desperation) but they still feel into that trap of other A.U's were they were always sought after just on the premise of being Gundams.

So a cliche I could do without is putting so much importance of Gundams as a concept in their own universe. It makes it more believable when you have 18 Gundams.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:14 am

On that note, MSG has several scenes covering that a single Gundam couldn't win the war by itself.

I guess that's why the sidestories add so many to the OYW! *rimshot*
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Antares » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:11 am

Then again, a Gundam show without a Gundam (or several) to be awesome in does kinda defeat the purpose of the franchise (and the selling of kits). But I'm right there with previous commentators about the impotence of war-ships (e.g. why not proper anti-MS defense; in that Ryuu74 was dead on). We've had this discussion in related threads, and the redundancy of a conventional space fleet is indeed a Gundam staple to a great extent.

Something that I could do without, from the top of my head:
1) the endless shouting of people's names to signify all emotions across the spectrum. It's especially gruesome when the name is longer and clearly difficult to shout out naturally.

2) the convenient times when "We have to retreat for now" when the protagonist is an inch from being beaten down. Plan an assault with more than a 30-minute operational window, please! :mrgreen:

3) the mook-shoots, but this applies to all moves or series where the protagonists kill an endless stream of faceless grunts

I just figured that people might actually like The War in the Pocket so much because it is short enough not to have to resort to all Gundam staples. No skeet-shoots, no "monster of the week", and so on. Sure, the name-shouting is there, but some stuff you just gotta let slide. :D
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Dark Duel » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:18 am

Antares wrote:Then again, a Gundam show without a Gundam (or several) to be awesome in does kinda defeat the purpose of the franchise (and the selling of kits)
The main gripe is not so much the Gundam being awesome per se, at least not as I understand it.
How I interpret the problem is that in far too many cases, the Gundam is - either right from the outset or it ends up being - some sort of untouchable godmode-bot, which is not entirely unnecessary (a Gundam does NOT need to be godly-overpowered to be awesome). If anything, IMO the fights tend to be MORE awesome when the Gundams are NOT retardedly overpowered compared to everything else.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Antares » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:32 am

Yeah I get that, Dark Duel, but that is the fine line Gundam shows have started to tread increasingly with (and since?) GS/D and G'00. All I'm saying there might be a marketing reason for that. We, as veterans of Gundam shows, would like to see some variety in the staple, and indeed not see either Kira beam-spam, or the 00 Trans-Am all opposition into submission.

Someone said that GundamX did a reasonably good job in that respect (and to some extent I agree with that assessment) but that show was cut short. Maybe the producers drew the wrong conclusions from its faltering ratings (i.e. "people want to see beam-spamming god-bots, which GundamX didn't have!"). :mrgreen:
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kei Katsuragi » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:27 am

Nononono, my problem isn't a Gundam being a god machine. It's really the concept of being a Gundam that is the problem. Like how the Vagan wanted a "Gundam" and tried to CAPTURE not destroy a "Gundam" as if to imply the inherent virtue of being a "Gundam" is what makes it so godlike. Or how Setsuna proclaims he is a Gundam, and the significance of Gundams. In U.C the significance was there, but you never saw the enemy factions saying to themselves "we are losing because we don't have a Gundam. Let us capture/build a Gundam." Gundams in U.C were just weapons. In 00 they were this symbol of Celestial Being, and Innovators, and human evolution, and the mission to unite the world against aliens, and junk. People in these A.U's obsess over Gundams as a concept. Then, from a story perspective, there is so much weight put on Gundams that having the villains roll out in a Gundam is supposed to incite dread. Now, I know I'm combining two cliches in this example (villains having a Gundam and the importance of a Gundam) but I'm just trying to draw attention to the latter. Gundams don't need to be this heroic symbol of human reformation, like in 00. They don't need to be the savior of humanity, like in AGE. They can be as overpowered as they want, just drop any inherent value of Gundams within their own universe.

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