Gundam cliches you could do without?

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Cardi Doorl » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:37 pm

HellCat wrote:The only thing I begrudge the Toonami run for is giving us people who will insist on using the dub alterations and errors.
Are there fans who insist on the dub names?

I remember back when G Gundam was first airing in the US and some newly-minted fans used the dub names because they didn't know about the alterations, but I've never seen someone who used them after learning about that, or really anybody who uses the dub names nowadays.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Newtype87 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:31 pm

Cardi Doorl wrote:
HellCat wrote:The only thing I begrudge the Toonami run for is giving us people who will insist on using the dub alterations and errors.
Are there fans who insist on the dub names?

I remember back when G Gundam was first airing in the US and some newly-minted fans used the dub names because they didn't know about the alterations, but I've never seen someone who used them after learning about that, or really anybody who uses the dub names nowadays.
*waves* Hi.

Okay, to be fair, I don't insist on the dub names, but I do prefer them over the originals. Otherwise I have to refer to the Tequila Gundam. Plus, I prefer the symbolism of the more amorphous light versus an all-encroaching darkness over a physical god versus the devil. And I've never really liked mechs named "God," but that's just personal preference.

I also call it Gee-Em and Gee-En-Ex, but that's just because their names are all in caps and my brain refuses to let me call them the Jim or Jinx, even as a nickname. Yes, I know, heresy.

Chalk me up for the mask thing too. Some shows use it well, others don't, but I think as a trope it needs a break. Maybe cybernetic goggles to replace eyes damaged by an attack when they were a young pilot?
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Dark Duel » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:49 pm

I remember F91 and V Gundam
True. But let me ask you this: Excluding those two and the Crossbone Gundam manga(plus sequels thereof), how many titles can you name off the top of your head taking place post-UC 0100?
Myself, I can think of only four: Hathaway's Flash, the F90 manga, the V Gundam sidestory that had a black V2, and Silhouette Formula 91. That's two animated works, one novel, and a total of five manga titles. And that covers a period of roughly 30 years, from 0123 to 0153.

The point is that the second century UC seems to be largely ignored, compared to pre-UC0100, where you have the overwhelming majority of material that makes up the franchise.
And a very sizable proportion of that is concerned solely with the One-Year War. I mean, that one year alone has got probably as much material devoted to it, if not more than the seven decades that followed it from 0083 to V Gundam in 0153

And to be honest, I'm getting kinda tired of it myself.

The mask thing is starting to get a little old, too.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:11 pm

Uh, can people stop attributing certain quotes to me? I think that's two posts now where I'm quoted as saying something that was actually said by someone else. Just so no one starts yelling at me, thanks.

G names- I've encountered at least one hardcore 'This is AMERICA, you use the AMERICAN TV names!' idiot. Said guys argument was he prefers American adaptations like Robotech and Power Rangers and apparently I was breaking some unwritten rule by using the original names, even though the DVDs happily acknowledge them.

Really not an attitude I care for. Queen the Spade. Jack in Dia. Ha ha!
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by bullethead » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:19 pm

Dark Duel wrote:The point is that the second century UC seems to be largely ignored, compared to pre-UC0100, where you have the overwhelming majority of material that makes up the franchise.
And a very sizable proportion of that is concerned solely with the One-Year War. I mean, that one year alone has got probably as much material devoted to it, if not more than the seven decades that followed it from 0083 to V Gundam in 0153

And to be honest, I'm getting kinda tired of it myself.
It's definitely more. It's actually odder to see a UC sidestory not take place in that time frame than it is to see an overwhelming focus on the period. I'm pretty sure 80% of UC games and manga take place during the OYW at some point, and OYW stuff tends to get prominently featured even in non-UC games.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:19 pm

Yeah, between Dark Gundam and Devil Gundam, I'll take the one that sounds more intimidating, thanks. :D
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Dark Duel » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:29 pm

YMMV of course; I personally have no problem (mostly) with either name scheme, and use them interchangeably without much trouble - mostly. At least in the case of God/Burning, Dark/Devil, etc...it's irritating, but I can live with it. There are a number of name changes that irritated me but I could live with, and a few more I didn't like at all, but those two aren't among them. Heaven's Sword I'm actually glad they changed, because that name is just pretentious to a ridiculous degree IMO.
However, that's a discussion for another time.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by YazanGable » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:28 pm

To be fair, it was part of a group that, in show, were called The Four Heavenly Kings. That name was right in line with how they viewed themselves.

Made more sense than Walter Gundam, at any rate.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kuruni » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:55 pm

I feel a little wrong to compare real life to fiction. But face it, OYW is like WWII. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are movies set in WWII more than those set in Vietnam War and Korean War combine.

Lets ignore sensitive subject and look from artistic approach, I think it's because when you compare them, OYW/WWII just have much bigger scale, and stronger impact historical event.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Cardi Doorl » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:46 am

Plus, the (admittedly secondhand) impression I get is that the Japanese fans largely haven't had the kind of backlash against the OYW setting that the English-speaking fanbase has been having for the past however many years.

I mean, not that you have to like the situation - the perceived "overcrowding" of the OYW - or think that the reason for it is a good one, but it's always good to remember there is a reason and it's not likely to change unless the big executive guys of Banrise are convinced there's money to be made elsewhere.
Pretty sure HellCat wrote:Uh, can people stop attributing certain quotes to me?
Whoops, fixed. Not sure how I mixed that up; maybe... maybe you speak for all of us?
Definitely HellCat wrote:G names- I've encountered at least one hardcore 'This is AMERICA, you use the AMERICAN TV names!' idiot. Said guys argument was he prefers American adaptations like Robotech and Power Rangers [...]
Interesting. Most people I know with that kind of mindset would refuse to watch foreign-produced works to begin with, which is at least logically consistent if still awful.

I wonder how the guy you mention can think that without his brain exploding from the cognitive dissonance.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Sume Gai » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:52 am

Count me in the Adaptation names camp on G Gundam. I grew up with them and feel the important ones generally work better. The Burning Gundam attacks primarily with incredible heat and to my western eyes has few if any traits I would attribute to a god, (not to mention how absurdly arrogant it sounds). The Dark Gundam isn't intelligent enough for me to think of it as a Devil and it definitely works better as an opposite to the Shining Gundam.
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Not to mention, as later revealed its not a specifically evil machine as the name Devil tends to imply.


The Secondary names are take it or leave it I guess and I'm not too persistent about it but in my head It will generally be the American names that come to mind when I consider G Gundam.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:50 am

Dark Duel wrote:YMMV of course; I personally have no problem (mostly) with either name scheme, and use them interchangeably without much trouble - mostly. At least in the case of God/Burning, Dark/Devil, etc...it's irritating, but I can live with it. There are a number of name changes that irritated me but I could live with, and a few more I didn't like at all, but those two aren't among them. Heaven's Sword I'm actually glad they changed, because that name is just pretentious to a ridiculous degree IMO.
However, that's a discussion for another time.
Setting aside that I like the name (it's perfectly pretentious for someone like Michelo), it created a fan myth that seems to refuse to die. During the Battle Royale its starring episode refers to it as 'Soaring Heaven's Sword!'. This naturally becomes 'Soaring Raven Gundam!' for the dub and some now insist that that's it's name rather than simply Raven Gundam.

But yes, this is a debate in of itself.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by YazanGable » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:18 pm

So...I've been thinking regarding Cardi's statement about how Japan hasn't had the same backlash towards the OYW that the west has, and I think I have a theory as to why that is.

At least in part it's a matter of exposure. Remember, for Japan they had a lot of this somewhat spread out over the better part of 30 years of coverage now. I mean, even just the OVAs alone had several years between each, to say nothing for the downtime between individual episodes.

Compare that to what happened in the west, where received a lot of this in a concentrated burst, both officially and through an influx of fansubbed releases of series that hadn't been given official releases. This being in a span roughly covering 15 years tops (though most of it didn't really kick into high gear until Wing took off in 2000.) Under the circumstances, we got more of it faster, and not just at Bandai's whims, the western fanbase gorged itself thanks to the capabilities of the web.

So in a way, it seems as though we were the instrument of our own undoing in becoming sick of the OYW. It doesn't really bother Japan because it's been a relatively paced constant over the years and they just accustomed to it. It just is. By comparison, we took in 30 years of material plus the new stuff in a span of maybe a decade. In that light, it becomes less of a surprise that we're the ones itching for change while they're OK with the current pace.
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Not to mention, as later revealed its not a specifically evil machine as the name Devil tends to imply.
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That was kind of the point of the name though. Ulube and Mikamura wanted Domon to believe that Kyoji was evil and mad with power. Remember how the doctored flashback set it up? They made it seem like the Ultimate Gundam was a weapon of conquest built by Domon's mad brother without the consent of the Neo-Japan government. In that context it makes perfect sense that the cast knew it as Devil Gundam. Plus, any implication that it wasn't evil went out the window after it crash landed and developed its own agenda.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:58 am

So with AGE ending, my thoughts turn back to the cliche of pilots ending up fighting for ultimate peace.

I really think they need to step away from this as it really is starting to cause bad, preachy endings. The ideal of ultimate peace is something all strive for (mah boi) but Gundam shows never really present a valid argument for how to achieve it, instead opting for 'There was a huge horrible battle that all alive to see it will forever remember and live in fear of. Somehow, that fear and associated respect will pass down the generations'. Compare to earlier shows which had 'There's a bitter war, it ends after bloodshed, mankind enjoys the fleeting peace'.

Again, I welcome the crusade for ultimate peace but when your show can't bring it around other than by ignoring realities, you should set your sights lower. To see the day the world is filled by the light of the human heart would be awesome but I think it's best kept as an inspirational ideal for characters.
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