Gundam cliches you could do without?

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by J-Lead » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:02 am

This isn't so much a trope as it is a continuing trend in the past decade, but I think the world would be a much better place if Sunrise never made another alternate universe ever again. Seriously, there's like, twelve of them at this point, and there's nothing stopping them from animating something taking place in one of the ones that are already established.

To further explain, Marvel and DC have a lot of AUs of their own, but there usually a case of telling a new, alternate take on a set of established characters that bring up scenarios that would be incompatible with the current continuity. Gundam doesn't have this excuse, and the prospect of alternate universes just serves as a convenient means to give writers an easy way out of writing around established lore while using old tropes in scenarios that demolish any meaning or relevance the trope's use had to the setting in the first place, and it's unforgivably lazy. I haven't given a single glance at AGE for this exact reason, and I could care less what endorsement anyone gives it; nothing about it even looks remotely interesting to me, the majority of the designs, even the versions that have yet to be cleaned for animation, are completely bland and uninspiring, and the very fact that it adds nothing to anything I'm already invested in means I have nothing to lose by just pretending it doesn't exist. That's not to say I'm a UC purist; I rather like AC a lot, in spite of it's flaws, and I'm very much enjoying the ongoing Manga retelling, and I'm sure I'd even be enjoying the Frozen Teardrop continuation, if they'd stop having a million flashbacks to silly lore-retconning things nobody cares about and actually tell the story it's supposed to be telling. The thing is, the ongoing trend of creating newer and newer alternate Universes is over-saturating the Gundam franchise with more and more crap while adding absolutely nothing of meaning to it, and if it continues, my growing lack of interest in newer Gundam works is just going to hit a peak and I'll likely stop caring about anything new at all.

To Sunrise's credit, they're animating Unicorn, and that's one of the best additions to the Gundam franchise I've had the privilege of experiencing, no matter what silly accusations people give it of being canon fanfiction or whatever /m/'s saying nowadays; at least it adds something, not to mention ties up glaring loose ends left over from CCA (which Gundam has needed for a long time now.) I think Gundam could use more of these; animated stories taking place in existing universes that build on the established setting, or at the very least tell a new story in it.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Imperial » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:46 am

J-Lead wrote:To Sunrise's credit, they're animating Unicorn, and that's one of the best additions to the Gundam franchise I've had the privilege of experiencing, no matter what silly accusations people give it of being canon fanfiction or whatever /m/'s saying nowadays; at least it adds something, not to mention ties up glaring loose ends left over from CCA (which Gundam has needed for a long time now.) I think Gundam could use more of these; animated stories taking place in existing universes that build on the established setting, or at the very least tell a new story in it.
I'll agree that I would like to see something along the lines of Advance of Zeta or Blue Destiny explored in animation.

However, I'm not sure what it is about Unicorn that's especially good or what loose end it's tying up. It actively revels in the worst of UC's cliches and just tacks on another conflict when CCA did a grand job of wrapping the Zeon conflict. I'll go out on a limb and assume the loose end was the remnants of the Neo Zeon fleet.

With their leader dead, efforts thwarted and fleet in shambles, what more could the Zeon leftovers be expected to do but finally give up the ghost and disband?
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Fritz Ashlyn » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:18 pm

Imperial wrote:With their leader dead, efforts thwarted and fleet in shambles, what more could the Zeon leftovers be expected to do but finally give up the ghost and disband?
To Mars, gentlemen!
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by J-Lead » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:58 pm

Imperial wrote:However, I'm not sure what it is about Unicorn that's especially good or what loose end it's tying up. It actively revels in the worst of UC's cliches and just tacks on another conflict when CCA did a grand job of wrapping the Zeon conflict. I'll go out on a limb and assume the loose end was the remnants of the Neo Zeon fleet.

With their leader dead, efforts thwarted and fleet in shambles, what more could the Zeon leftovers be expected to do but finally give up the ghost and disband?
Wrapping up the Zeon conflict is exactly what CCA did an astronomically lazy job of doing. The only thing it wrapped up was Amuro and Char's rivalry.

If you think Zeon's going to disband because Char's MIA, then I don't think you know Zeon very well. Throughout the entirety of UC, Zeon soldiers are notorious for continuing to fight long after their leaders were dead. The only thing they ever seem to need is someone to take the reigns eventually (sometimes, not even.) It happened with a good number of the Zeon Remnants on Earth and in space after Gihren and the Zabi's were wiped out, it happened after when Haman died, and with Unicorn, it happened again after Char died. The Neo Zeon Fleet was more or less exhausted, but still strong enough at the end of CCA that there was no reason for them to give up their efforts and surrender because the guy they looked up to the most was presumably killed in action, especially when there's still a chain of command and plenty of sympathizers (like at Sweetwater.) All in all, they were probably in better shape than Haman's/Glemy's respective Neo Zeons at the end of the First Neo Zeon war.

Unicorn does a pretty good, or at least decent job (good is relative, I guess) of explaining what happened to the Zeon Fleet after CCA, namely that their benefactor in the
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gave them a place to stay and hole up, where they could commit to guerilla warfare, in addition to more of less giving them a clone of their old leader. It also goes on to explain that the Sleeves are pretty divided themselves in ideology, meaning they're more than just remnants of Char's Neo Zeon. In addition, it does a fair amount of world building, particularly on subjects most Gundam series tend to overlook (formation of the Federation. What's Mineva up to? Why isn't psycoframe technology used after CCA? etc.) All in all, Unicorn's story scenario seems like it's playing the role of the Zeon's final bout with the Federation, which is kind of overdue at this point, if you ask me.

Eh, but I'm starting to diverge from the topic. I'd be happy to continue this in a PM, if you'd like.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:19 pm

Fritz Ashlyn wrote:
Imperial wrote:With their leader dead, efforts thwarted and fleet in shambles, what more could the Zeon leftovers be expected to do but finally give up the ghost and disband?
To Mars, gentlemen!
Exactly - that's the origin of the Mars Zeon, and how they got the tech to make the RF Series that doesn't exist.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kei Katsuragi » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:18 pm

J-Lead wrote: and I could care less
COULDN'T care less. Because if you could care less, that means you COULD CARE LESS, and the phrase is meaningless.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:36 pm

Kei Katsuragi wrote:
J-Lead wrote: and I could care less
COULDN'T care less. Because if you could care less, that means you COULD CARE LESS, and the phrase is meaningless.
Word.

----

Perhaps less of a cliche and more of a personal annoyance, but the super fast R&D we see in the AUs.

One of the benefits of UC covering as much time as it did was that we got to see the evolution of technology over roughly a century, from the clunky MS of the One Year War to the smaller sized and beam handy suits of Victory. All of this follows at an acceptable pace.
However, because all the AUs essentially have to ape UC to be defined as Gundam, the result is that they seem to make the jump from MSG tech to V tech in a matter of months. Aside from that, even UC has an incredible number of units with questionable R&D time and the justification 'This looks like a modern art sculpture but is really dangerous because we say so'.
Oddly, despite covering more time then the other shows, AGE has had a much slower advancement and we're still seeing the likes of Gafrans being used.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Toxicity » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:54 pm

Super Fast R&D isn't unheard of in the real world. It only took around 120 days for the first P51 Mustang to hit the skies from the time the project began.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by HellCat » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:43 pm

Thing is, most Gundam shows have a ton of prototypes in the monster of the week role. Sometimes this helps world building (the idea Zeon had so many because each Zabi was green lighting their inner circles pet projects) but usually it just leaves me wondering why we don't see consistent development instead of seemingly wasting resources on doing stuff because they can. AGE has kind of done well in that regard since in the first generation you have the Gafran as the general Vagan unit, the Baqto as one developed to challenge the Gundam and the Zedas as an X-Rounder use unit. Simple and consistent.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by LigerMKII » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:35 pm

Toxicity wrote:Super Fast R&D isn't unheard of in the real world. It only took around 120 days for the first P51 Mustang to hit the skies from the time the project began.
Not to nitpick, but despite the plane taking off 120 days after initial design, it took another year for it to be anything more than a slightly faster P-40 with the introduction of the Merlin Engine.

Furthermore. The P-51 utilized existing technology and introduced nothing new or complex to aircraft technology. You can't compare the speed of the Mustang's development to what was pulled off during the One Year War and after.

Heck, you can't compare that to weapons development today, even with off-the-shelf technology like the Mustang.

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Toxicity » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:56 pm

Well ZOINKS, there I was thinking I knew what I was talking about. :shock:

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:12 pm

Mythgarr wrote:lagrange colony vs earth
I don't think you can fairly call that a "cliche" any more than you can giant robots, war drama, or ideological conflict a cliche. They're all major parts of what makes Gundam Gundam. A Gundam show that took place largely outside Earth orbit wouldn't feel very Gundam-y, given that Gundam has revolved around humanity's relationship with Earth from its very beginnings.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Outlaw » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:10 am

J-Lead wrote:This isn't so much a trope as it is a continuing trend in the past decade, but I think the world would be a much better place if Sunrise never made another alternate universe ever again.
You know, I've always felt that the practice of alternate universes was one of Gundam's strengths. Though I will split the difference and say that they might not be getting the most they could out of the universes they have already established.

As an aside: I have to say this type of discussion always drives me nuts as it gives me the nagging feeling to put my money where my mouth is. :lol:
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by ShadowCell » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:15 am

if you wanted a more realistic R&D and production schedule, you'd have to either accept a lot fewer robot designs (and thus a lot fewer gunpla kits) or a much larger timeframe for the story, like what AGE has going now. and AGE is pretty handily showing the pitfalls of trying to cram that much time into fifty-ish episodes. so i think absurdly rapid R&D and production is pretty much inescapable.

although even if you allow for that, it can still strain credulity *coughcoughMSV-Rcough*

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Outlaw » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:00 am

ShadowCell wrote: *coughcoughMSV-Rcough*
Yup, the One Year War sure had a lot of mobile suits.

What do you mean?

Let's say this twinkie represents all of the Mobile Suits in the average alternate universe. According to this the One Year War should be a twinkie, 35 feet long and weighing approximately 600 pounds.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:35 am

Outlaw wrote:
ShadowCell wrote: *coughcoughMSV-Rcough*
Yup, the One Year War sure had a lot of mobile suits.

What do you mean?

Let's say this twinkie represents all of the Mobile Suits in the average alternate universe. According to this the One Year War should be a twinkie, 35 feet long and weighing approximately 600 pounds.
"That's a big twinkie."

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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by GX9900-Gundam-X » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:23 am

The Rx-78-2 color scheme Id like to see the HERO pilot a red mobile suit or even Rx-78-1 colors just more variety amongst the protags
No more ZOINKS funnels out side of maybe last battles
a strong female pilot that makes it though the whole series with out touching a pink MS
Or a female hero or rival that would be cool kinda like how Loran was intended
A story were the federation for all its faults is not fully corrupt
less homages to old mechs more new designs
No newtypes or at least ones that have ability's toward maybe piloting and not psychic
non-gundam vs gundam final fight
a psycho working for the heroes for once
a ship that is not white base or the argama
the good guys using a mobile armor like the Shamblo or the Nevue Zeile yes yes i know the stamen
an actual well trained special forces ms team as the heroes not just a random unit that by chance got the shiny new super weapon
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Kuruni » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:30 pm

...And with those, you just turned this thread from "Gundam cliches you could do without" into generic wish list.

In that case, I alway have one single wish.

More loli.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:59 pm

GX9900-Gundam-X wrote:The Rx-78-2 color scheme Id like to see the HERO pilot a red mobile suit or even Rx-78-1 colors just more variety amongst the protags
00 in general - Setsuna/Gundam had a traditionally-coloured machine, but the rest of the CB team had a fairly diverse colour palette.
No more ZOINKS funnels out side of maybe last battles
Wing - unless you count planet defensors, which I wouldn't.
a strong female pilot that makes it though the whole series with out touching a pink MS
Noin.
Or a female hero or rival that would be cool kinda like how Loran was intended
Noin again.
A story were the federation for all its faults is not fully corrupt
Any of the three powers in 00 Season 1.
less homages to old mechs more new designs
Damn near anything from Wing, ZAFT's grunt designs in Seed (but not Destiny), a plethora of 00 grunts, with the Flag and GN-X as standouts...
No newtypes or at least ones that have ability's toward maybe piloting and not psychic
Wing, discounting the odd notion of the "Soul of Outer Space".
non-gundam vs gundam final fight
Turn A has you; Turn-X isn't a Gundam.
a psycho working for the heroes for once
Hallelujah - very definitely Hallelujah.
a ship that is not white base or the argama
Ptolemaios, Peacemillion and oh-so-Freeden.
the good guys using a mobile armor like the Shamblo or the Nevue Zeile yes yes i know the stamen
If we're counting Dendrobium in amongst these, the GN Arms has to follow, surely.
an actual well trained special forces ms team as the heroes not just a random unit that by chance got the shiny new super weapon
Celestial Being have you covered here.

So, yes. It's been done. Not all at the same time, but everything you want, we've seen.
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Re: Gundam cliches you could do without?

Post by Fritz Ashlyn » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:21 pm

Dendrobium Stamen wrote:So, yes. It's been done. Not all at the same time, but everything you want, we've seen.
You don't even have to go into the AU. 8)

* Heroes in red MS and variety among protagonist pilots?
Mobile Suit Gundam. Guncannons, Guntank, Core Fighters, G Parts.

* No funnels outside of last battles?
Mobile Suit Gundam. The Elmeth uses bits, and there are no funnels at A Baoa Qu. :P

* A strong female pilot that makes it through the whole series without a pink MS?
Mobile Suit Gundam. Sayla Mass.

* A female hero or rival?
Possibly a near miss, I suppose, but Lalah is a dangerous pilot for the enemy. Gonna go with 0080 here though for the save.

* A story where the Federation for all its faults is not fully corrupt?
Mobile Suit Gundam.

* Less homages to old mechs and more new designs?
Mobile Suit Gundam. They were all brand new at the time!

* No newtypes or ones that have more pilot-oriented abilities rather than being psychics?
Mobile Suit Gundam. Newtypery isn't really a huge issue until later in the series and even then it still mostly just makes Amuro and Char good pilots.

* Non-Gundam versus Gundam final fight?
Mobile Suit Gundam. RX-78 vs Zeong.

* A psycho working for the heroes for once?
Miss. But I'm not sure why that's a cool thing to have.

* A ship that is not White Base or the Argama?
0083. :P How about the 08th MS Team? Victory?

* The good guys using a mobile armor?
Mobile Suit Gundam. The G-Armor and all its variations are pretty close.

* Not a random unit that gets the super weapon by chance?
Gonna go with 0080 here too to pick up the slack a little.

8 or 9 out of 12 ain't bad for THE ORIGINAL FREAKING GUNDAM SERIES, all things considered.
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