How sympatheic or evil should Gundam antagonists be?

[Zeino]

Fans keep complaining about how the Vagans in Age are too evil in their actions while at the same time, complain about how Gundam Unicorn trys to hard to make the audience feel sorry for the Sleeves to point it comes across as favouritism. Which is kind odd since nobody seems to mind how 95% of the Titans in Zeta were totally evil bastards...

So how sympatheic or evil should the various Gundam "villain" factions and their members be portrayed?

[DuelGundam2099]

I don't care either way as long as they have a sense of consistency.

[HellCat]

I think a good Gundam antagonist needs to be a reflection of humanity. Alot of the really memorable ones are driven by hubris but have at least a splinter of reality to them. With the Vagan I've mostly been annoyed because they were introduced as this fascinating antagonist that were supressing their own humanity to achieve their goals but as soon as Asemu's arc started they were directionless 'Mwahaha, crush the Gundam! My pride before the mission!' messes. The most recent episode of AGE has revisited the potential hinted at Ambat but at this point it feels more like a forced attempt to get the audience to sympathise with an enemy that has spent the last 70 years lacking any display of moral fibre.

That's really where I think alot of Gundam antagonists fall apart- many of them are mustache twirling, card carrying monsters who are there to be 2D tyrants. It sadly seems to be the rare occurance that we get to see a force that starts out noble but goes off the rails or who have conflicting views within. The AU's in particular seem to suffer here, since they seem to offer a stew of the collective UC baddies. The Federation in particular seems to get hit hard in this regard, since in any Gundam universe it's basically now just there to bankroll the protagonist's Gundam and then get in the way of him using the thing. The Earth Alliance in SEED stand out because I'm struggling to think of really anyone on their side who was portrayed as moderate. The EA in CE seems to just be a strawman attack on America and Europe.

[Zeino]

The AU's in particular seem to suffer here, since they seem to offer a stew of the collective UC baddies.

Um, Master Asia? Zechs? Trieze? Durandal? Graham?

The EA in CE seems to just be a strawman attack on America and Europe.

How so?

[HellCat]

The AU's in particular seem to suffer here, since they seem to offer a stew of the collective UC baddies.

Um, Master Asia? Zechs? Trieze? Durandal? Graham?

I didn't say it was an absolute, I was offering an overall generalisation of AU antagonist forces and less so individuals.

And given Zechs is basically Char on fast forward, is he really a good counter example anyway?

The EA in CE seems to just be a strawman attack on America and Europe.

How so?[/quote]

The whole fact they represent the Western world and we're shown time and again their government and military are stuffed full of trigger happy racists and on the direct payroll of war profiteers, to the point Destiny shows the American president at Djibril's beckon call.

[AmuroNT1]

Yeah, the Alliance in SEED is a horrible example of an antagonist group from a writing standpoint. Aside from the one (1) sympathetic character in each season (Halburton and Neo), the ENTIRE faction is portrayed as frothing, psychotic, racist murderers. Whether or not it's true, it's easy to see why people believed the rumor that Fukuda designed the Alliance as a slam against "George Bush's America".

As for the main question, I agree with Hellcat that the antagonists should have SOME humanizing element to them. Part of what made Gundam special back in the day was that there was no strange, far-out antagonist like the aliens and subterranian monsters from Super Robot shows; everything bad that happened, was the result of humanity and its excesses, its greed, its ambition, its anger, and its inabiliy to connect on a deeper level. When villains get too (for lack of a better word) cartoony, it ruins suspension of disbelief and makes the show that much harder to enjoy.

Of course, making the villains too sympathetic runs the risk of creating fans who like them for the wrong reasons, like all the Zeon apologists who gush over their bravery and loyalty and ignore little things like the poison gas, the attempted biological warfare, and the colony drops. Then again, it's not like sympathy is an active component of fandom; just look at the massive, inexplicable following for Ali al-Saachez, which seems to exist mainly because he laughs in the face of the conventions of the series.

[yazi88]

I found Paptimus Scirocco from Zeta Gundam to be very interesting antagonist and actually more sympathetic and likable when compared to Haman Karn (who is a irredeemable villian and scumbag in my eyes. Aside from CDA version that is....) He wasn't into the whole Genocide thing that Titans top command love to do and actually helped prevent a colony drop on the moon, wasn't interested in ruling the Earth Sphere or anything, just a glorified spectator if anything. Plus he had the pimping charisma which made people look at him and women throwing themselves at him. He also cared for subordinates if any like Sarah (he was actually quite pissed when she kicked the bucket protecting worthless ass Katz.)

[ShadowCell]

just look at the massive, inexplicable following for Ali al-Saachez, which seems to exist mainly because he laughs in the face of the conventions of the series.

at least until the conventions of the series come back around and lay him very, very low

[DuelGundam2099]

Yeah, the Alliance in SEED is a horrible example of an antagonist group from a writing standpoint

I somewhat disagree, the entire point of SEED was to show that no good comes from war and, to be honest, I liked the way both sides (not just EA, but ZAFT as well; both series and Stargazer I might add) were depicted. War is not sides sympathizing with one another, that is why it exists. That is kind of the reason I like the Cosmic Era, it doesn't try too hard to make the two main forces sympathizing. Besides, I heard nobody complaining about how both the Space Revolutionary Army or the New UNE had mostly psychotic and cruel individuals with only an exception here and there. (and lets not pull the "well they were cut 10 episodes" card, please)

[Zeino]

And given Zechs is basically Char on fast forward, is he really a good counter example anyway?

Execpt he was far more noble and honorable in character than Char (who let's face it, was a really selfish and petty jerk) ever was.

The whole fact they represent the Western world and we're shown time and again their government and military are stuffed full of trigger happy racists and on the direct payroll of war profiteers, to the point Destiny shows the American president at Djibril's beckon call.

Then by that logic, the Earth Sphere Federation under Ribbons's control in 00 is also a strawman attack on America since the A-laws are always attacking Middle Eastern nations in order to stomp out "terrorists" and the puppent president of the ESF looks like Obama.

Part of what made Gundam special back in the day was that there was no strange, far-out antagonist like the aliens and subterranian monsters from Super Robot shows; everything bad that happened, was the result of humanity and its excesses, its greed, its ambition, its anger, and its inabiliy to connect on a deeper level.

Except a lot of those aliens and subterranian monsters from Super Robot series had understandable and even sympatheic resons for their actions. Like The Dinosaur Empire from Getter Robo who believed their were taking back the planet that had been rightfully theirs once from the humans that stole it or The Balm from Daimos who just want a new world to live on and were trick into going to war with Earth by their evil leader. Even the original Super Robot show villain, Mazinger Z's Dr. Hell was show not to be wholly evil as he cared about his subordinates.

[Sume Gai]

I'm a bit in two minds on the subject. On one hand a well humanized villain can be very compelling and make for excellent drama wherein we don't want to see either side die. It can give us and our protagonists pause to bring their objective into question. It also adds tension if we aren't sure who we want to see come out on top.

On the other hand I get a great (ironic?) pleasure in seeing a villain having a lot of fun being evil. I like seeing the kind of villain that won't hesitate to do something morally repugnant to really light a fire under the protagonist.

Of course both of these have their own issues an overly human villian has a hard time being a villain. Someone who is sympathetic towards others won't kill more than he thinks are strictly necessary and someone overly reasonable should be able to find a better solution than combat in most situations. Too much humanization generally defangs a villain to me, giving them a trite, sad backstory or making their actions 'not really their fault'.

Of course on the other end of the spectrum the 'for the evulz' villian can become petty or cartoonish. If done too often or onto a large Group (glares at EF from Destiny) it makes it seem hard to care whether they survive.

The correct answer in my book is you need a bit of both just as there are alot of different people in the world you need some variety in your antagonists. People you love to hate for your heroes to cut their teeth on and people you can sympathize with to make the protagonist stop and think and grow.

[AmuroNT1]

Except a lot of those aliens and subterranian monsters from Super Robot series had understandable and even sympatheic resons for their actions. Like The Dinosaur Empire from Getter Robo who believed their were taking back the planet that had been rightfully theirs once from the humans that stole it or The Balm from Daimos who just want a new world to live on and were trick into going to war with Earth by their evil leader. Even the original Super Robot show villain, Mazinger Z's Dr. Hell was show not to be wholly evil as he cared about his subordinates.

While there are a few exceptions like the Barm, and rare sympathetic characters like Miyuki/Gora from Getter Robo, it doesn't change the fact that on the whole the antagonists in early Super Robot shows were pretty one-dimensionaly evil. You can cite the Dinosaur Empire wanting to reclaim the Earth, but that doesn't change the fact that their goal was to slaughter all of humanity with absolutely no alternative. And while Dr. Hell might occasionally treat his minions nicely, it's mostly because he needs them to carry out his plans, which again involve slaughtering innocents and taking over.

While Gundam does have its completely irredeemable characters like Gihren, Jamitov, Djibril and the like, they're the exception rather than the rule. It's actually more like the opposite of the old Super Robot shows; while they were 99% evil with one or two good people, in Gundam there's usually one single "monster" character while the other antagonists are sympathetic or at the very least manipulated.

[HellCat]

Yeah, the Alliance in SEED is a horrible example of an antagonist group from a writing standpoint

I somewhat disagree, the entire point of SEED was to show that no good comes from war and, to be honest, I liked the way both sides (not just EA, but ZAFT as well; both series and Stargazer I might add) were depicted. War is not sides sympathizing with one another, that is why it exists. That is kind of the reason I like the Cosmic Era, it doesn't try too hard to make the two main forces sympathizing. Besides, I heard nobody complaining about how both the Space Revolutionary Army or the New UNE had mostly psychotic and cruel individuals with only an exception here and there. (and lets not pull the "well they were cut 10 episodes" card, please)

Thing is, very little attempt is made to portray the Alliance and more specifically the Atlantic Federation as sympathetic round about the point they try and kill a ton of their own allies as bait in a trap for ZAFT. From that point on they're portrayed as one note racists, a fact which continues directly into the opening of Destiny. By the end of that the Alliance is all but dead and the protagonists are split between Orb and ZAFT. ZAFT might be shown to do some terrible things but both times we're told it's the fault of the leader. Remove Patrick or Gilbert and suddenly it becomes this credible organization, whilst the Alliance is depicted as rotten to the core. It'd be one thing to tackle them as 'The system is corrupt', an angle AGE is using as one example, but the Alliance just come off as monsters with anyone decent jumping ship or relegated to sidestories.

[Compass]

Examine Gundam 00 S1 and S2.

The only arguable antagonist as a result of that event was clearly A-LAWS and the Innovators and rogue elements.

Kati Mannequin is portrayed as "evil" initially, from the viewer's perspective. But that's not really the case, is it? She believes in the system and that puts her at odds with CB.

Graham Aker is portrayed as someone cut out for vengeance and pride, but in the end, he vindicates himself and becomes a good guy too, no?

Pretty much 90% of the people introduced in 00 as bad guys become good guys.

[DuelGundam2099]

To be fair, Hellcat, the EA did have enslavement camps so one can assume they had control over the planet and felt ZAFT was a threat to power and simply used the racism card as something to get behind. They are basically the Titans if they were more than just a branch. Like I said before, the main factions in Gundam X are in similar situations, but no one seems to care about them, so why blame SEED and Destiny for it? They're not the first, they just made it more known to western fans like us.

[Amion]

Funny, I guess X just isn't popular enough to get noticed, particularly since the SRA was the worst we have seen so far. I mean, really, they caused the apocalypse on earth, or something close to it. And then they build a giant laser to cause even more destruction.

But still, Zeon takes the cake for me. some of the people we see in the shows may look nice and sympathetic, but you can't under any circumstances write-off half of humanity's total populace as nothing but a "bad mistake". Wasn't that number somewhere around 5.2 billion?

[YazanGable]

Amion: For a lot of people, the fact that the SRA spends most of X missing in action, only to come back at the very end with their cannon and then get KO'd by the Frost Bros kind of diminishes any impact they'd leave for people compared to factions that are prevalent for their entire series.

[Kratos]

I don't really understand how one could defend the Atlantic Federation - not only are they almost a caricature in how irredeemably evil and racist they are, they're also a pretty transparent villainization of the Western powers (including bullying the European ones into submission to their dastardly, apocalyptic schemes), so they're ALSO a hackneyed political statement. They're a pretty good example of how not to write a villainous faction, at least in a way that most Gundam series seem to value.

[DuelGundam2099]

They're a pretty good example of how not to write a villainous faction, at least in a way that most Gundam series seem to value.

Keyword here being "most".

On a similar note, I just watched the third GSD compilation movie and noticed that before the battle of Heaven's Gate there were some members of the EA actually willing to help ZAFT's cause. With that said, I think there is some indication that not all of the EA consists of racial evil folks, just the ones that support Blue Cosmos.

[ShadowCell]

but we're not talking about the entire Alliance. DESTINY clearly shows some of the Earth's nations switching sides (so their fleet can be promptly annihilated by the Destroys). we're talking about the Atlantic Federation--the only Earthside nation other than Orb that appears to matter in the Cosmic Era.

i'm willing to go along with it for SEED, because SEED at least showed that both sides had been taken over by genocidal maniacs, even if the Alliance was controlled by a bunch of douchenozzles from the outset. and powerful countries being taken over by genocidal maniacs isn't exactly historically unprecedented or anything.

DESTINY though...well, yeah.