UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

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zetatype
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by zetatype » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:25 pm

YazanGable wrote:
toysdream wrote:The colonies rotate to provide the equivalent of full Earth gravity via centripetal force. (It's not clear that this would actually work in the long term, but obviously it's hard to check.) If you're living on a planetary body, on the other hand, you're stuck with the natural gravity; Martian gravity, for example is half that of Earth, and the moon's is only one sixth.
Looked at in this light, the fact Kou got the crap beat out of him by Lunarians in 0083 feels kind of sad on his part. Granted, it's not a major gravity difference, but with military training on top of that, you'd think he'd be able to hold up better than he did.

...then again, 0083 in general doesn't fare well under closer inspection, so...moving on.
your forgetting the fact that Kou was very depressed during that time and probably didn't even bother to try and fight back. Had he even bothered to fight back he might have stood a chance.

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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by tHeWasTeDYouTh » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:11 am

in a lot of the Gundam series when you get episode in Earth you see that the place is pretty poor or just average. The so called "elite" are the politicians and their families while the rest of the people on Earth are just average.

Living on Earth is better than the colonies so I see why the spacenoids would try and put all Earthnoids in the same side

time to G3 the spacenoids, they are crazy crashing space colonies in my planet
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by HellCat » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:32 pm

This has been an interesting discussion so far.

So let me see if I've got this straight- the Federation tries to usher the majority into the colonies. However, after a sizeable batch has already been pushed out there the general population protests to save their own skins and whilst the forceful migration is stopped, those already sent away are expected to stay up there. Is that right?

I think what's helping to confuse the matter are the various cases of spacenoid ignorance and Earthnoid arrogance. In the first series we have the infamous moment where members of both sides that hail from space think a thunder storm must be a new enemy weapon and in ZZ the idea of a colony drop prompts at least one official to say he'd welcome it in the hopes it'd thin the Earth based population. Essentially whenever the issue is addressed directly things seem to fall neatly into the simple idea of the Federation being a corrupt power that's quite happy to shunt people off into space and do their best to ignore them, but when the issue isn't specifically being focussed on the evidence seems to run counter.
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by doghunter1 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:23 am

zetatype wrote:
in episode 4 of UC gundam the old man at the dinner mentioned that many people left earth on their own.
Wouldn't he be referring to the first generation of colonists, whereas those who whined about it would of the second generation, which may have influenced Zeon Zum Deikun?

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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by Zeonista » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:07 pm

HellCat wrote:This has been an interesting discussion so far.

So let me see if I've got this straight- the Federation tries to usher the majority into the colonies. However, after a sizeable batch has already been pushed out there the general population protests to save their own skins and whilst the forceful migration is stopped, those already sent away are expected to stay up there. Is that right?
That is correct, immigration to the Moon or the Sides is a one-way ticket. You can return to Earth as a tourist or for business meetings, but otherwise, stay up in space in your big tin-can home and leave Earth to recover itself.

For my own POV, the concept of Earthnoid elitism mainly stems from the fact that the people living on Earth have "elite" status mainly because they live on Earth. No perpetually recycled air & water, 1.0 gravity all the time, real sky, and animals all over the place. There is real weather, real climate, real living room, and real variation in just about everything. It's somewhat envious to the Spacenoids, who know that their crowded but otherwise comfortable Side colonies just aren't the same thing, whatever advertising from CDC might say.

The real bite in the distinction of "elite" also comes from the acknowledged fact that the political leaders of the AEUG and by extent all of the Federation all live on Earth before UC 0100. The big bosses are all down on Earth, at a comfortable remove from the masses, and never need fear the restrictions which they dictate to the majority of the human population. One does not need to be a Marxist to decry such an attitude. :) Also (to rub it in), many Earthnoids who come up the gravity well to space & travel to the Sides act like they went to another planet instead of visiting fellow humans who happen to live near to Earth. The better sort like Bright Noah can admit they need to learn new things, but many are not as polite, and see the colonists as an "other" populace. Referring to a colonist as uchuujin (spaceman, "alien") as happens sometimes in the anime is patronizing at best, and a challenge in some neighborhoods. It's a petty injustice, but injustice none the less, and it's more grist for the Zeon agitprop mill and AEUG recruitment drives in turn.
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by excalibur2008 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:08 pm

Zeonista wrote: For my own POV, the concept of Earthnoid elitism mainly stems from the fact that the people living on Earth have "elite" status mainly because they live on Earth. No perpetually recycled air & water, 1.0 gravity all the time, real sky, and animals all over the place. There is real weather, real climate, real living room, and real variation in just about everything. It's somewhat envious to the Spacenoids, who know that their crowded but otherwise comfortable Side colonies just aren't the same thing, whatever advertising from CDC might say.
except when ever a person from space talks about the Earth (at least in 0079) the majority of the time its to express how much they loath the place and would perfer to stay in their space colonies.

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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by Zeonista » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:34 pm

excalibur2008 wrote:
Zeonista wrote: For my own POV, the concept of Earthnoid elitism mainly stems from the fact that the people living on Earth have "elite" status mainly because they live on Earth. No perpetually recycled air & water, 1.0 gravity all the time, real sky, and animals all over the place. There is real weather, real climate, real living room, and real variation in just about everything. It's somewhat envious to the Spacenoids, who know that their crowded but otherwise comfortable Side colonies just aren't the same thing, whatever advertising from CDC might say.
except when ever a person from space talks about the Earth (at least in 0079) the majority of the time its to express how much they loath the place and would perfer to stay in their space colonies.
It's not loathing; most of the idealistic Spacenoids honor Zeon Zum Deikun in concept if not full theory. Earth is not the end or the ultimate focus of the human existence, only the beginning. Ideally all humans should leave Earth to rest & recover, and then move into the Sides, and from there to other planets, and who knows what could be next for the "new type" of human? From the viewpoint of the devoted Contolist/Zeonist, the Earth-centered position of Earth's elites is a burden and obstacle to humanity achieving its destiny.
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by excalibur2008 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:54 am

Zeonista wrote:
excalibur2008 wrote:
Zeonista wrote: For my own POV, the concept of Earthnoid elitism mainly stems from the fact that the people living on Earth have "elite" status mainly because they live on Earth. No perpetually recycled air & water, 1.0 gravity all the time, real sky, and animals all over the place. There is real weather, real climate, real living room, and real variation in just about everything. It's somewhat envious to the Spacenoids, who know that their crowded but otherwise comfortable Side colonies just aren't the same thing, whatever advertising from CDC might say.
except when ever a person from space talks about the Earth (at least in 0079) the majority of the time its to express how much they loath the place and would perfer to stay in their space colonies.
It's not loathing;
A Zeon Admiral referring to Earth as a Mudball and saying the Federation can have it for all he cares, and some Zeon troops embarking on a crazy plan to blow up the Gundam just so they can go home isn't loathing :?

Then there Shiro Amada's being impressed with Earth kind of crapping out what he found out how hot it was in the jungles of Southeast Asia and then understandably commenced to complain about the lack of air conditioning.

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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by battletech » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:35 pm

excalibur2008 wrote:A Zeon Admiral referring to Earth as a Mudball and saying the Federation can have it for all he cares, and some Zeon troops embarking on a crazy plan to blow up the Gundam just so they can go home isn't loathing :?

Then there Shiro Amada's being impressed with Earth kind of crapping out what he found out how hot it was in the jungles of Southeast Asia and then understandably commenced to complain about the lack of air conditioning.
I think the Admiral is just saying he would like the Feds just to leave space alone and stay on Earth. His statement is more directed toward the enemy then Earth. Zeon soldiers don't like it because to them it's just a battlefield far away from their families. They are facing death on a daily basis. Most civilians though I think would love to go to Earth. I'm watching First Gundam the movie trilogy version again. In the first movie the civilians on White Base seem very happy and at awe at Earth and can't wait to live there.

Then there is the whole Char's Counterattack when both Fed and Neo Zeon will to protect Earth was so great that it stopped Axis.
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by excalibur2008 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:50 pm

battletech wrote:
excalibur2008 wrote:A Zeon Admiral referring to Earth as a Mudball and saying the Federation can have it for all he cares, and some Zeon troops embarking on a crazy plan to blow up the Gundam just so they can go home isn't loathing :?

Then there Shiro Amada's being impressed with Earth kind of crapping out what he found out how hot it was in the jungles of Southeast Asia and then understandably commenced to complain about the lack of air conditioning.
I think the Admiral is just saying he would like the Feds just to leave space alone and stay on Earth.
No it seemed pretty obvious that he didn't care for the planet that much seeing as he called it a mudball.

Besides if the Zeon actually cared about the planet I doubt the would go around devestating parts of it with colony drops or frequently turning it into a battleground.

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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:28 pm

Zeonista wrote:For my own POV, the concept of Earthnoid elitism mainly stems from the fact that the people living on Earth have "elite" status mainly because they live on Earth. No perpetually recycled air & water, 1.0 gravity all the time, real sky, and animals all over the place. There is real weather, real climate, real living room, and real variation in just about everything. It's somewhat envious to the Spacenoids, who know that their crowded but otherwise comfortable Side colonies just aren't the same thing, whatever advertising from CDC might say.
That's what people like Char like to say, but it's not really borne out by the animation. The elite are the elite because they're the elite, not because they live on Earth. We see plenty of examples of the "earthborn elite" being no such thing -- the teeming masses in Hong Kong during Zeta don't seem to be particularly better off than your average spacenoid, for instance, and CCA shows us things like Quess and her hippie friends getting chased down and dragged away by the fuzz, or Mirai's troubles in CCA, despite her being the wife of a fairly highly-placed member of the EFF. Suggesting that all Earthnoids are elites is a bit like suggesting everyone in Washington DC is a big shot politician -- just because most of the elites live there, doesn't mean that everyone who lives there is one of the elite.
Zeonista wrote:The real bite in the distinction of "elite" also comes from the acknowledged fact that the political leaders of the AEUG and by extent all of the Federation all live on Earth before UC 0100. The big bosses are all down on Earth, at a comfortable remove from the masses, and never need fear the restrictions which they dictate to the majority of the human population.
Are we talking about the same AEUG that's run by Blex, Bright, Wong, and Char? Because two of those are spacenoids from birth, and the other two have spent most of their adult lives in space rather than on Earth.
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by Zeonista » Thu May 01, 2014 1:46 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:That's what people like Char like to say, but it's not really borne out by the animation. The elite are the elite because they're the elite, not because they live on Earth.
You are quite correct, but remember from the view of the colonists in their limited homes in space, people living on Earth have it easy just by living there. Also, the leadership of the EUG have a distinct "do as we say, not as we do" approach to the space-dwelling masses. See the American political term "limousine liberal" for an example of this concept in action. ;)
We see plenty of examples of the "earthborn elite" being no such thing -- the teeming masses in Hong Kong during Zeta don't seem to be particularly better off than your average spacenoid
Those "teeming masses" in the cities are a necessary concession to keeping life on Earth at the space-age level for the elites. The masses are also the first places the Federation goes to fill up the emigration ships when there aren't enough volunteers. They are not "elite", but they are Earthnoids by birth, with no love for Zeon or similar uppity Spacenoids after 0079. But being treated as "Zeek-lovers" by the Titans for daring to stand up for their rights after emigration to the Sides puts their collective back up rather quickly. And so a new generation of colonists end up angry at the careless elites on Earth.
Zeonista wrote:The real bite in the distinction of "elite" also comes from the acknowledged fact that the political leaders of the AEUG and by extent all of the Federation all live on Earth before UC 0100. The big bosses are all down on Earth, at a comfortable remove from the masses, and never need fear the restrictions which they dictate to the majority of the human population.
Are we talking about the same AEUG that's run by Blex, Bright, Wong, and Char? Because two of those are spacenoids from birth, and the other two have spent most of their adult lives in space rather than on Earth.
Ah, now when you talk about Anaheim Electronics and friends on the Moon you are dealing with the captains of industry in the Federation. These space-age zaibatsu feel some elitism of their own, to believe they deserve some respect and consideration in the halls of the EUG. Since they promptly get lumped in with hoi polloi in the colonies, this does not please them, and the suspicion directed at former Zeon membership (try employment screening for that at Granada :roll: ) makes them angry at the lack of understanding. So AE equips AEUG at cost, just to make the point to the Federation at large about biting the hand that sustains it. The subsequent political shift towards accommodation with the Moon by the Federation after UC 0088 tends to show that their message was received and understood! :D
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Thu May 01, 2014 3:05 pm

Zeonista wrote:You are quite correct, but remember from the view of the colonists in their limited homes in space, people living on Earth have it easy just by living there.
That's my point -- I can't recall anyone on-screen actually suggesting such. If the average spacenoid has beef with the Earth Federation, it's because they're getting pushed around by people like the Titans, not because they're living in space colonies instead of on Earth. Unicorn hammers this home during Mineva's conversation with the old man in the diner -- people are people no matter where they live, and they're largely content to live their lives in peace, Earthnoid or spacenoid. It's only when people like Zeon and the Titans come in and start disrupting (and/or ending) their lives that they care at all.
Zeonista wrote:Those "teeming masses" in the cities are a necessary concession to keeping life on Earth at the space-age level for the elites. The masses are also the first places the Federation goes to fill up the emigration ships when there aren't enough volunteers. They are not "elite", but they are Earthnoids by birth, with no love for Zeon or similar uppity Spacenoids after 0079.
The idea that the Federation upper crust only allows people to live on Earth in order to provide a tech base for their own elite existence seems... let's say "unsupported". There's nothing to suggest that the Federation would ship everyone but high-ranking officials off the planet if they could. Indeed, Char's complaint in CCA is that they should be booting everyone of the planet, but aren't. As far as a lack of love for Zeon, that's pretty much universal throughout the UC timeline. No one likes Zeon except for leftover Zeon partisans and a handful of folks who fell through the cracks of the Federation system (like the people supporting Char in Sweetwater during CCA), and the latter is less "yay Zeon" and more "boo Federation". Even Side 3 itself is no friend of Zeon, studiously avoiding getting so much as the appearance of supporting their former overlords.
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by Zeonista » Mon May 12, 2014 3:36 pm

Zeonista wrote:Those "teeming masses" in the cities are a necessary concession to keeping life on Earth at the space-age level for the elites. The masses are also the first places the Federation goes to fill up the emigration ships when there aren't enough volunteers. They are not "elite", but they are Earthnoids by birth, with no love for Zeon or similar uppity Spacenoids after 0079.
The idea that the Federation upper crust only allows people to live on Earth in order to provide a tech base for their own elite existence seems... let's say "unsupported".[/quote]
There may be some multi-millionares, government department heads, and Congressmen who currently take their own garbage cans and recycling bins to the curb, and do their own home repairs, and update their own computer programs, and change the oil in their cars by themselves. I would confidently state that they are in the overwhelming minority. Some people are required to keep the elites functioning so the elites have the time & opportunity to keep running the show for the benefit of the masses. I do not doubt that this situation has become any different in the Universal Century.
There's nothing to suggest that the Federation would ship everyone but high-ranking officials off the planet if they could. Indeed, Char's complaint in CCA is that they should be booting everyone of the planet, but aren't.
Like I said, "space emigration for thee, but not for me....or the village full of workmen and the people who feed and equip the workmen and other support staff who keep me living well on Earth."

As a passing notion, I noted that most of this argument over "Earth's elites" is more or less involved in the first century of the UC era. The subsequent century seems to avoid that bone of contention that I can remember. Victory Gundam & Crossbone Gundam don't mention the topic as a plot point.
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Mon May 12, 2014 7:23 pm

Zeonista wrote:Like I said, "space emigration for thee, but not for me....or the village full of workmen and the people who feed and equip the workmen and other support staff who keep me living well on Earth."
And like I said, there's nothing to actually support that assertion. There's no suggestion that the Earth Federation really cares about getting people off Earth at all. We never hear about policies designed to get the riff-raff off the planet and into space colonies where they belong, or about the sad necessity of letting some of the poor unwashed masses live on the planet in order to support the elite class that actually deserves to live there. We never see people being deported to the colonies because they're not important enough to stay on Earth. We never see anything to support the idea that the "earthnoid elite" is anything more than a clever political slogan cooked up by Char and other anti-Federation partisans.
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by HellCat » Tue May 13, 2014 8:35 am

Thing is, isn't that what's going on when the police arrest Quess and co in CCA? I wanna say the DVD booklet by Mark outright clarifies this but it's been a while (might be thinking of the old Gundam Project synopsis).
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by HellCat » Wed May 14, 2014 12:26 pm

HellCat wrote:Thing is, isn't that what's going on when the police arrest Quess and co in CCA? I wanna say the DVD booklet by Mark outright clarifies this but it's been a while (might be thinking of the old Gundam Project synopsis).
So I've just checked the booklet and the Web Archive of Gundam Project (ah, early days...) and- nope. Neither seem to make this claim, though I could swear I'd heard it somewhere. Not that it's unheard of for me to get minor canon muddled, idiot that I am.

One thing I will say is we do hear alot of small talk about the 'Earth born elite'. Stuff like Sayla's quip to Bright, 'Quattro' mentioning they invited Federation politicians to come see space first hand but they declined out of fear of nausea and I think a quick scene in F91 that suggests the politicians on Earth aren't taking the Crossbone Vanguard seriously because they personally aren't under attack. To which I suppose it's a valid question- how much of it means something and how much is literally just bias small talk?
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by Kratos » Wed May 14, 2014 7:22 pm

In Sayla's case, she'd been around the attitude of "the Earth elite" her entire life, so I could see it being a pretty ingrained bias (and that does happen pretty early on in the series too).

In those other two, well, politicians are politicians and the Earth being relatively free of large, destructive conflict after the OYW would probably allow them to get pretty comfortable. Even if the population at large isn't.
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Re: UC's Earth born elite- Just how elite are they?

Post by excalibur2008 » Wed May 14, 2014 7:43 pm

Kratos wrote: In those other two, well, politicians are politicians and the Earth being relatively free of large, destructive conflict after the OYW would probably allow them to get pretty comfortable. Even if the population at large isn't.
Though considering the Crossbone Vangurd was ultimately defeated be basically going bankrupt, the politicians that didn't consider them a threat may have had a point.

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