Official After War Gundam X Thread

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HellCat
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by HellCat » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:32 pm

Fatigue has long been my theory. You also have to consider that at that point audiences wanted Wing, enough that it later got a sequel. X may well have suffered from parts of the audience not finding in it what had got them so excited from Wing and bailing.
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Khandri » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:57 pm

(Oh hey, someone brought this thread back after a full year. Awesome! :) )

I know that Wing did well and pulled in a lot of female viewers especially, but I didn't think it was the mega-hit it was here in the States? I might be misremembering something, though I swear I heard that it was more middle of the road, maybe a bit higher, in terms of popularity in Japan at the time it aired.

That said, I've no illusions that fatigue is probably part of what did GX in. After that many years straight of Gundam series that were all quite different from one another, a lot of people are just going to get tired of it and tune out. For all we know, had Wing and GX been swapped around in the years they aired, we might've been talking about Wing being the one that suffered from lower ratings and a shorter episode count.

"Lack of excitement" may also be a probable cause, especially with regards to that aforementioned female audience that boosted Wing's popularity. GX has (in my opinion, at least >_>) some good-looking characters, but they're not at the extreme pretty-boy level that Wing had, not to mention that with virtually all of the main male characters having obvious female love interests, it kind of kills the stereotypical female fans' yaoi potential (didn't stop them from trying, though). Combine all of that with the radically different post-apocalyptic storyline that isn't anything like Gundam of the past (this despite its strong UC influence/aesthetic--I personally subscribe to the theory that AW is a direct continuation of UC myself), and it's unfortunately not surprising why it was hemorrhaging viewers/ratings. A shame they decided to just bury it in a horrible time slot instead of giving it a chance towards the end.
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Amion » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:04 pm

I think Khandri has thoroughly worked out all the potentials in this. :D Can't disagree with anything said, although I think there is a point where possibly the plot just wasn't intricate enough after something like Wing. I don't believe there was a burnout, I think it was just a bit too much of a transition from most works. Not saying you guys don't have a relatively good point.

We can spin our wheels forever until someone finally hires that ninja to slip into Bandrise and learn the shocking truth. And wanna bet it would be something unimaginative that all of us would facepalm over.
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Tangerine » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:40 pm

Well, Wing has a serious tone while GX every now and there has a comedy tone to it. It's a lighter show that should be okay if it was launched before Wing or after Turn-A. Too bad it was made after Wing. Just like how ZZ aired after the ever so serious show like Zeta and looks how it receive negative responds from its viewers.

Most of us acknowledge that GWing is the first one that showed Gundam to the western world and it sort of acted like a benchmark of how a series shared the title Gundam should be. Even in Japan, probably Wing is the only thing before 00 S1 that really hit the spot for angry pilot boy feat giant robots, competent adversaries and political madness type of show. So GX kinda a let down. If it swapped with Gwing. I think both would be better, at least GX will fare better.

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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Chris » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:56 am

Tangerine wrote:Well, Wing has a serious tone while GX every now and there has a comedy tone to it. It's a lighter show that should be okay if it was launched before Wing or after Turn-A. Too bad it was made after Wing. Just like how ZZ aired after the ever so serious show like Zeta and looks how it receive negative responds from its viewers.
That's not a really good comparison. Wing and X have nothing in common other than airing consecutively, whereas ZZ was the direct sequel to Zeta and totally changed the tone. It's like if you're watching Lord of the Rings and then suddenly Return of the King is full of slapstick with Aragorn and chickens.
Tangerine wrote:Most of us acknowledge that GWing is the first one that showed Gundam to the western world and it sort of acted like a benchmark of how a series shared the title Gundam should be. Even in Japan, probably Wing is the only thing before 00 S1 that really hit the spot for angry pilot boy feat giant robots, competent adversaries and political madness type of show. So GX kinda a let down. If it swapped with Gwing. I think both would be better, at least GX will fare better.
I don't see what this has to do with anything, and X especially. Wing is very dissimilar in some ways to other shows, so if you're using it as a "benchmark" just because it aired first in America, it's the wrong way to look at subsequent shows. It sounds like you're making too big a deal about Wing and not looking at X by its own merits.

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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Tangerine » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:27 am

I don't see what this has to do with anything, and X especially. Wing is very dissimilar in some ways to other shows, so if you're using it as a "benchmark" just because it aired first in America, it's the wrong way to look at subsequent shows. It sounds like you're making too big a deal about Wing and not looking at X by its own merits.
That's true. But that's what really happened to the western-world isn't it, making Wing as the benchmark. Albeit wrong, viewers doesn't necessarily required to be smart and study around before making expectation of something. The savvy one usually get in touch with UC timeline and all is good but the other have to cope with different show that is GX, at least that's the impression I get from people I know. as for myself I'm raised on the other part of the globe and watched Gundam in no chronological order but definitely watched Zeta way before Wing and X. and having Zeta as my benchmark doesn't change how I felt about X. But that's just me and I don't force anyone to acknowledge my points or my point of view. :oops:

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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Chris » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:22 pm

Tangerine wrote:That's true. But that's what really happened to the western-world isn't it, making Wing as the benchmark. Albeit wrong, viewers doesn't necessarily required to be smart and study around before making expectation of something.
This is understandable 13 years ago with a younger audience and less Internet savvy, but not these days. If someone is an adult by now and still views all of Gundam through the narrow lens of Wing, that's their own fault and to their own detriment. It doesn't reflect negatively on X or any other show.

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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Khandri » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:23 pm

^ I think this is a really good point. Many people here in the West are still very quick to judge all Gundam using Wing as their standard, largely because of the nostalgia factor, and I think that can hurt how they view the rest of the franchise as a whole. We can go over this over and over, but we can't change people's snap judgments.

Would opinions on GX be different here had Cartoon Network been able to air it back in the day? (I've seen commentary from Toonami folks that they wanted to show G or GX right after Wing and not MSG like Sunrise/Bandai insisted.) Would it maybe have even helped the franchise hang on a bit longer in the West? We'll never know. The number of "what if"s for GX alone is staggering, and as much as I love it, even I have trouble grappling with them.
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Amion » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:37 pm

I'd have to agree that most people I've come into contact still judge Gundam through the lense of Wing, which is sad. Still, Chris has a point that these people have the internet, they can research if they want to and if they don't it's to their own loss.

As for X, I finally watched episode five. Great one, I forgot that the Virsago's cannon only scraped the sides of one ship, I could have sworn there was a scene of it coming close to the Freeden. Well that's what a rewatch is for right?

Am I the only one who thought the Grandine was an awesome mobile armor? It actually makes sense to have it so big. It's basically a mobile fortress or artillery installation. I have to ask if anyone here understands the rubber science behind its photon shells. they were charged up so they don't seem to have any physical shell being fired, which is cool but it would be nice to get a better grasp on how it actually is supposed to work. >_>

That scene with Tiffa walking out of the fiery ruins was great, my favorite part and highlights the power of a Newtype, as she can even direct an attack at a base she's in and manage to direct the fire just so, allowing her to just walk away casually.

I've noticed that maybe one small bit that went against X is that it's overall artwork is poorer in quality compared to Wing, or at least what I've seen so far is. Wing always felt more...fluid. I realize it probably got touch-ups before airing on Toonami, but the actual animation of Wing seems better. X looks like it should come directly after Victory, given the quality. What numbers do we have on X's budget when it aired?
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Amion » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:41 pm

Episode Six: I don't Like it.

We have a popular character introduction this episode, Enel El, and she's got her eyes on Garrod. Her interactions with Garrod in the future were always a favorite, and that scene between him and Enel in the coming episode definitely stands out.

I was frankly surprised to realize the lipstick scene happens so early. I was totally, confidently, dern shure that it came in the teens when Tiffa was opening up to the crew. But no, it came so much earlier when she's still traumatized. I think this was bad timing, it should have happened later on during the Lorelei arc.

GASP! I just now noticed that Jamil was teaching Tiffa the basics in art this episode! So that's how she learned to paint! *Insert unmanly fansqueal*

P.S hey, I just became a HiMAT Spammer...I miss my plush Dekar office...
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Khandri » Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:21 pm

I've never really liked the translation of that title as "I don't like it." It's actually quite inaccurate as far as translations go, and almost a little out-of-character for Sala; the better, more in-character one would be "This is unacceptable" (which is what I personally used for my episode recaps last year--I really ought to get back to those one of these days). There was another fansub that used something else, but I can't remember offhand what was anymore.

I've seen this show numerous times, but it was only in watching it again last year did I realise in this episode just why Sala was so disapproving of Tiffa wearing the lipstick. For the longest time, I thought it was just because she thought a "little girl" shouldn't be wearing makeup/be so ladylike. It only dawned on me recently that Sala was actually under the false impression that Tiffa was wearing the lipstick for Jamil (even though it was actually for Garrod), since she she was spending the whole episode jumping to conclusions about there being something going on between them, and that's why she was so upset. I already don't like Sala, so that realisation really didn't help my opinion of her.

For the other part...I never really saw that scene as Jamil teaching Tiffa art? I was long under the impression that she was already very artistic, and that abstract drawing was sort of her way of saying "I got nothing, but I tried," based on how she would go on to use her drawings to determine where they needed to go, as well as other important moments. Because honestly, while she's a very gifted individual, I'm not sure she could go from basic shapes to near-lifelike works of art in a matter of days. At least that's what I got from the expressions in that scene. With no dialogue or narration to tell us exactly what's going on, I suppose it's pretty open to interpretation.
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Amion » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:28 pm

Ahem, my presumption about the things she drew is that they aren't abstract. I worked in an art studio for about five years or so. The thing she drew is the first thing all new students drew and many draw all the time for practice: basic shapes and shading them. I even do it despite being experienced, it's like an exercise.

There's detail there that hints at this. And one can paint and blend color very well while possibly not having a good grasp of details. Take mecha artwork for example versus painting in acrylic-one requires extreme attention to lines and corners, while the other can be abstracted to suite the artist's taste.

I originally had your opinion, but during this rewatch, I noticed something strange: watch again, and you will see Tiffa nod and appear satisfied, while Jamil nods as well and from what I recall stays to keep teaching her more. As a matter of fact, he tells her not to hurry after she tries to use a trance search, but after failing he starts with the shape sketches. Possibly an arcane technique he learned from Lorelei or another Newtype mentor?

I have to say I always liked Sala, what do you dislike about her other than the recent realization?
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Darkerangel » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:09 am

I love love love me some Gundam X. To me, it has the second best "love story" with G Gundam being #1. Even though I'm a Newtype whore, I enjoyed Garrod. I have always believed that after Gundam Wing that Gundam X should have been shown on tv first before introducing the UC-timeline and or 0079.


I dunno if this off the topic, but has anyone checked out the manga that follows after the anime?
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:36 am

All I know is that it features a mysterious Gundam that we didn't see i the show and has a funky name
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by LightningCount » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:22 pm

Yeah, I like Sara (Sala?) a lot too. She anchors the Freeden crew with her personality. I got it that she was upset about Tiffa and Jamil, and it was all sort of funny. The facial expression of disapproval said it all.

Going back a few points here...

Actually, you can be a fan of BOTH Wing and X, I think.

I know I am. And I think it makes so much sense.

Personally, I think of Gundam X as a sister series to Gundam Wing. (Not taking anything away from either in saying that, either). Yes, X adds in more One Year War subtext with colonies and Newtypes, but in terms of the ragtag nature of its characters and action*, and the overall art direction and Gundam designs, it really comes off as the rightful successor to Wing. It has a little more of a melancholic/wistful atmosphere than Wing, its arcs are more clearly defined, and its characters less maladjusted, but it still gives off a similar vibe.

The Estard Arc of Gundam X, with its political maneuvering and the tailoring of the military uniforms really invokes a Wing feel not unlike the Sanc Kingdom arc of Wing. (Incidentally, ever notice that the excellent episode of X where Roby and Witz go back home has some vibe similarities to the episode where Kiki's village gets visited by the three Zakus in 08th Team?--another series made during the same time period).

*The dynamic actions like holding up a Gundam early on, getting in on-foot firefights at Zonda Epta or the Estard town, and sneaking around places or using flashbang tricks like Ennil El all have that guerrilla vibe of Wing that so many Gundam series hardly use. Like Wing (and G), X allows its characters to define their various tactical skills/identities outside of their mobile suits. (G, Wing, and X are sort of a unique triad). Even a series like 00, which would be well-suited to these kind of scenes, does not explore this aspect of its characters anywhere near to the extent of X, Wing, or G. That reality that the characters have to fend for themselves beyond their mobile suits adds a 3D element to Wing that is shared beautifully with X. Another time we see this kind of action is during the Fort Severn Arc. (Peturia gives off a D-Gundam G vibe, and is why another description I have for X is G meets Wing with a dash of OYW).

Also, the way even minor characters are bursting with visual personality is another thing that the G, Wing, X run did really well. One episode characters can really make an impression, making the world all the more rich.

As far as people looking things through the prism of Wing, I do tend to do that, as it's my favorite. Sure, it has its faults, but it kind of picks out a lot of the best of Gundam, IMO, and modernizes it in a unique world that feels more near-future and earthy than the more spacey Universal Century, for instance. I realize that can be an issue, and I've had to correct the way I watch Gundam at times to counter that. But that said, I have seen a majority of the rest of Gundam and respect and often enjoy it for what it is. Something like Gundam 0080 is right there fighting for the top of the list in my mind.

But what I'm saying is that there is no need to degrade what Wing is just because it came across some popularity. I see the frustration of having one thing or another define a series for different generations, but I don't know if that can be helped. When I saw some UC stuff before Wing, I thought it was good, but it didn't compete with the Macross stuff I was seeing through Robotech. At least, that was my opinion then. Regardless, when Wing came out, it completely changed my view of Gundam and elevated it very high. Researching the franchise back then, I knew that Gundam X was what I wanted next...but that never happened.

Last note: Speaking of the Alternative Arc, I always thought that if the series had gone its full run, Rosa Intenso might have made another appearance in the Vulture alliance with Carris, etc. She and Jamil seemed to have a connection, as I recall. But that's just one theory I have of many potential "cuts."
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:48 am

I can fly if I ride the wind! Gori gori!

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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Amion » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:13 pm

Aaaaaand I'm back, with the Enil El arc under the bridge, it's on to Carris.

I have to admit I don't particularly think I like Enil's arc so far. Maybe it's because the vulture she was shacking with annoyed me. The flamethrower gambit didn't seem to be as impressive as it originally was the first time I viewed it, though the use of the Moon's laser energy transfer on the lake was an excellent bit I'd forgotten about. Well done Jamil!

And where I've left off, Garrod is at the mercy of Newtype pahwwarrr~
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Khandri » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:58 pm

^Ennil does get better from here, fortunately, and her later arcs are part of why she's become one of my favorite non-Gundam mobile suit pilots. Episode 20 and beyond really do a lot to develop her.

Don't know why I didn't get back to this thread sooner, but eh.
LightningCount wrote:Last note: Speaking of the Alternative Arc, I always thought that if the series had gone its full run, Rosa Intenso might have made another appearance in the Vulture alliance with Carris, etc. She and Jamil seemed to have a connection, as I recall. But that's just one theory I have of many potential "cuts."
Oh good, I wasn't the only one who saw her acting awfully flirty with him. :) Maybe he doesn't show anything to them, but Jamil sure knows how to attract the ladies. (And I'll stop there before I become an idiot fangirl.)

I recall that when I was first watching the series many moons ago, I was naively hoping that the Estard army would've shown up to assist our heroes in space, because I thought more should've been done with them. But it doesn't really make sense when they were absorbed into the New UNE. But whether or not we would've actually seen any of those other Vulture captains again...who knows? There's a lot we don't know about the "what if"s of that part of the series, although having more use of some of those minor characters would've been nice and not make their initial/only appearances feel so filler-ish.
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by Amion » Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:33 pm

I like Enil's character, but her arc seemed almost....wasted. Perhaps it was the overdose of the flame throwers, which make sense, kinda.

I still love the Frost brother's as villains, why people don't like them is beyond me, other than their development happens so much later. I mention them again because at the burning lake, they actually make a reference to what they do later on with the Newtype candidates, using Garrod as a test for which ones are Newtypes or not.

Oh dear, don't remind me of the Estard arc just yet, I hated it. It felt very fillerish because ultimately nothing comes of it or its characters. Garrod gets development sure, and that one guy who was the regent turned out to be a great character, sacrificing himself for the prince, yet at the same time it all just kinda of happened, and then it's on to Bloodman and then space, which really, really needed some more focus, not that it's really X's fault on that end, what with the cancellation.
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Re: Official After War Gundam X Thread

Post by LightningCount » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:04 pm

Amion wrote:I like Enil's character, but her arc seemed almost....wasted. Perhaps it was the overdose of the flame throwers, which make sense, kinda.

I still love the Frost brother's as villains, why people don't like them is beyond me, other than their development happens so much later. I mention them again because at the burning lake, they actually make a reference to what they do later on with the Newtype candidates, using Garrod as a test for which ones are Newtypes or not.
I think that the unconventional scenarios and villains are part of what makes Gundam X so special. I like the Frost brothers a lot, actually. Some of the coolest villains in all of Gundam. The only thing that holds them back for me is that they are never given many "victorious" moments against the heroes. (I think OZ had more luck against the nigh indestructible Gundam pilots in Wing than the Frost brothers had against the Freeden crew, and that's a shame). Down the line, that hurt their credibility as a threat. The failed Ashtaron/Virsago pincer-stab maneuver alone is interrupted countless times.
Amion wrote:Oh dear, don't remind me of the Estard arc just yet, I hated it. It felt very fillerish because ultimately nothing comes of it or its characters. Garrod gets development sure, and that one guy who was the regent turned out to be a great character, sacrificing himself for the prince, yet at the same time it all just kinda of happened, and then it's on to Bloodman and then space, which really, really needed some more focus, not that it's really X's fault on that end, what with the cancellation.
I think a lot of this is the time crunch for the series being cancelled, which always gives me a strong feeling of regret. Some people say Gundam X was too mundane/slow, but all of that was naturally building up, big by bit, toward these later arcs in a measured way. And to see those later arcs get cut short is such a disappointment.

I love the Estard arc. One of the best arcs in the series. On the macro level, after all the build up, we finally get to see the political structures and the UNE laid bare in this lawless land we've been exploring, and our heroes are caught in the middle of it. It's essentially the promises of the Frost Brothers and their commanders coming to fruition from all the way back at least to the Fort Severn Arc. As a result, we get the main characters developing and splitting up to act on their own, which creates some memorable scenarios. When Gundam pilots split up to get individual development in a series, good things happen. Not to mention we get some great fights out of the Frost "card players" and a host of neat new mobile suits.
Khandri wrote:There's a lot we don't know about the "what if"s of that part of the series, although having more use of some of those minor characters would've been nice and not make their initial/only appearances feel so filler-ish.
Agreed. I respect that they were able to pull things together well enough, but I just have this tainted/bittersweet feeling of what could have been.
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