Development of Alternate Universes

[farjad93]

Interesting thoughts you have there, Ouroboric. Your explanation for the converging timelines is what I came up with too, after thinking about it. However, on the wikipedia page for Turn A (I know, it might not be reliable, but it's food for thought), it shows the first 4 alternate universes all on converging but parallel timelines that all end up at CC. CE is off to the side and doesn't even converge. I don't know whether the picture is from an official source or not and whether this has any significance or not, but it is certainly intriguing. However, your explanation is certainly very plausible.

[Kuruni]

Not official hint, but we learn that Turn A was created to counter interstellar threat, being immensely powerful and capable of teleportation - keep the concept of AU in mind, and you easily see it as parallel universe version of 00QT where Veda flip middle finger to ELS instead of peace talking.

The destruction of civilization is most likely unforeseen result though (there's no Turn X counterpart to 00QT anyway - one that would keep boardcast "You can't be Gundam" message until Setsuna gone berserk ).

[farjad93]

I would see The Moonlight Butterfly as something not going as it's creator planned,maybe it was meant to have that power, but in a more controlled way. Turn X was meant to stop it from wiping out Moonrace, or what ever dominant faction was in space at the time, and things got out of hand and it somehow wiped out earth's civilization instead. After seeing the horrors of technology, the initial people left abandoned high technology for a more primitive lifestyle,slowly letting the knowledge fade away, which led up to what we see in CC, when people start to embrace "progress" and high technology again.

Yes, this is a reasonable explanation. This theory makes you wonder whether humanity is doomed to become too smart for its own good and end ups destroying itself ...
I once read this theory that the reason no intelligent life has been found beyond our planet is because any intelligent life would eventually end up destroying itself. It's an interesting theory, though I don't quite buy it. But I can certainly see the logic behind it.

[Kenji]

Perhaps the better question would be "is the Federation right to clamp down on the colonies to prevent Zeon movements," but Unicorn seems to be taking that up already.

That's a better way of putting what I was getting at. I was literally out the door as I made that edit, so I didn't really have time to express it well.

Basically, the idea would've been that with the Titans gone (or, more broadly, the Federal effort to clamp down on the colonies), Neo Zeon agitates in ways that specifically take advantage of the lack of the Titan fleet wandering among the colonies. It wouldn't be explicitly brought up, like how no one in Zeta really questions whether Newtypes are the way to the future or if the Federation was really the "good guys" in or despite the One Year War. The question, instead, was left to the viewer to ask and answer, if they cared.

And yeah, you're right, Unicorn is covering this. Better late than never?

Also, sure, you can make the argument that the kind of peace we have today requires a degree of understanding. This is true. But, it's not true understanding. If it was true understanding, then there would be no conflicts. Mankind would simply get along.

In the context of Gundam, there is plenty of evidence against this, such as the scene in which Camille decides he must fight Haman precisely because he comes to understand her. This scene, and its result, upends Amuro's moment with Lalah.

Other than that, it's not much more than an assertion based on nothing but personal philosophy or faith in something there's no evidence for. Nothing in history has ever supported this and, while the absence of evidence doesn't mean the evidence of absence, the absence of evidence doesn't prove something, either.

In shorter form, this is just the No True Scotsman fallacy. Any example of understanding that doesn't lead to permanent peace will be written off as not being "true" understanding. What defines true understanding? The result that you demand as evidence of true understanding? That's circular logic.

[Ouroboric]

For Camille and Haman it was'nt quite like that, They understood each other and Camille used that as a reason to suggest that the two of them stop fighting, but Haman was pissed off that Camille saw her insecurities, and felt that his beliefs would not help earth sphere in any way, so she continued on, it was when she blew off the leg of Fa's Methuss that Camille decided that he had to fight her, as she was too stubborn to give in to his way of thinking.Though it does'nt change your point in any way.

For the Titans thing, oppressing people will always make them push back, especially if they have nothing else to lose. Non federation forces would always have potential sway over the colonists,whether it be Aeug,or Neo Zeon, because the dichotomy between earth and space is way too strong for it not, the Federation always put the benefits of earth over the pace colony's. It really is'nt a question whether it was a good idea or not to form the Titans, it was a bad idea for the Federation to start the whole mess by putting economic sanctions on side 3 when they declared independence.The only possible solution is spacenoid independence,or the federation actually treating the colony's like equals.

[farjad93]

Any example of understanding that doesn't lead to permanent peace will be written off as not being "true" understanding. What defines true understanding? The result that you demand as evidence of true understanding? That's circular logic.

Alright, alright. I guess you have a point. There are plenty of examples where understanding doesn't lead to peace and one can't really argue that there is only one "true" form of understanding.

For the Titans thing, oppressing people will always make them push back, especially if they have nothing else to lose. Non federation forces would always have potential sway over the colonists,whether it be Aeug,or Neo Zeon, because the dichotomy between earth and space is way too strong for it not, the Federation always put the benefits of earth over the pace colony's. It really is'nt a question whether it was a good idea or not to form the Titans, it was a bad idea for the Federation to start the whole mess by putting economic sanctions on side 3 when they declared independence.The only possible solution is spacenoid independence,or the federation actually treating the colony's like equals.

Yes, this is undoubtedly true. However, it still doesn't excuse Zeon's transgessions against innocent people during the OYW. To counter Zeon's military might, the EFF needed a special force, hence the formation of the Titans. I already mentioned in a previous post why this went so horribly wrong. But you're right that the Earth Federation were the ones to blame in the first place for their unequal treatment of the colonies. We see that AGE is repeating this theme with the conflict between Earth Forces and the Vagans.

[Kratos]

It's easy to villify the whole sanctions thing, and the common theory these days seems to be "Federation forced people into space, oppressed them horribly, and then denied them basic rights when they wanted independence" - in other words, evil and oppressive. This is largely because of Unicorn, probably, but it should be remembered that most of that series' "history lessons" are presented by Full Frontal, who may be just a little bit biased. I think it's important to keep in mind that this is not traditionally how the Federation has been portrayed.

The Federation that we see in MSG is a relatively benevolent united world government that managed to stay so long enough to colonize space - no mean feat, to be sure, as this requires steady stability. Zeon going independent threatened that stability; ostensibly, the world had seen a stretch of peace after its unification, and with this new nation led by a man preaching about those among the stars as a new type of humanity, the Federation would naturally feel this peace threatened. Stability existed because of the unity - why break that at such an important precipice in human exploration? As a result, they gamble with the sanctions: obviously, this is an act of war, but it is probably figured that any sane leader wouldn't dare fight such a huge coalition and would capitulate. This sort of worked, too; despite his unwillingness to back down, Deikun also refused to go to war, and when the Zabis DID go to war, they only gained what they did through insane massacre. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if the Titans hadn't existed, Zeon would not be nearly as glorified among Spacenoids as it is, considering their mass murder of innocents. The more recent atrocities are always the ones that remain fresh in the mind, but I digress. We see plenty of happy colonists to show that they weren't exactly universally slumming it up there. My point is that assuming the Federation is evil and oppressive rather than bureaucratically incompetent just turns them into the Atlantic Federation, and removes any of the depth that the faction has. The TITANS are evil and oppressive, but they're a little different.

As for the necessity of a group like the Titans, remember that it wasn't just because of Zeon's remaining military might: the Titans were necessary because politics could no longer keep that might in check. Zeon was defeated because its leadership was wiped out, and any fleets remaining active are not only without a chain of command to keep them in check, they're likely to be commanded by insane zealots. The sort of people that keep fighting after a war like that need to be addressed, or tragedy will strike (which it does anyways, but that's not the point).

[Ouroboric]

^ But you also had men like Haman's father and Char at the time, who were pacifist, and wanted to once again find a way to gain independence peacefully. I agree with all that, but my main point is that human's favor their own, Spacenoids will inherently care less about Operation British(the colony was empty was'nt it, they just killed earthnoids?) than the Titan's side 30 incident.My point was just that the situation was such a strong dichotomy between earth and space, that the only real solution would have been to at least try to give the spacenoids a bigger say,a proud people will care more about their independence and self determination than just scraping by, or living decently because they were employed by the federation government.In ZZ we see people who also just want independence for themselves in Africa, you can't simply throw all different people under the same system and expect them to get along, diversity creates conflict,meaning segregation, and self determination of individual groups will always be necessary. I don't think anyone in UC is evil so to say, even the Titans, some of their members were morally questionable, but no organization is inherently evil.

[ShadowCell]

i don't really know how much blood you can squeeze out of the "UC Gundam, but now the Federation is evil!" stone, to be honest. Unicorn seems to be haltingly trying to go for it, but if that's their point, they kind of stomped all over it by reminding us that Zeon is still brimming with genocidal maniacs (although for some reason Zeon gets a pass for that from the fans, because, i mean, hey, those Zeeks, y'know, if they couldn't try to obliterate most of humanity they just wouldn't know what to do with

on the other hand, there is another danger of going this route. once you start dragging the Federation down to Zeon's level in every way, you risk turning the Universal Century into something like the Cosmic Era: a world where every major faction is equally completely despicable and so our heroes are completely justified in forming a third party led by all of the children because children know best. AU universes might be able to get away with that, because they can construct their worlds from the ground up and if they want a world where every major faction is equally despicable, we can't really say otherwise. but we could certainly say that such a show wouldn't fit into the tenor of the Universal Century--because, well, it wouldn't.

Unicorn is kind of baffling me so far because it seems to be walking the edge of that abyss every night, but it hasn't fallen in (and i thank heaven for that). then again, it's got two more episodes to go, so who knows.

Spacenoids will inherently care less about Operation British(the colony was empty was'nt it, they just killed earthnoids?) than the Titan's side 30 incident.

of course, the reason the colony was empty was that Zeon killed everyone inside first.

in fact, the reason a lot of colonies during the One Year War were empty was that Zeon killed everyone inside, which makes the spacenoids' constant support for Zeon all the more baffling. you'd think the whole genocide thing would have damaged the brand name or something.

[Ouroboric]

I think the point was more so just to flesh out the complexities of factions, it is'nt ever a matter of "good" versus "evil". I think the Zeons are meant to be the people who value ideals over material living. Half the population dying would be worthwhile if it meant securing a better future for those left over. That seems to be the ideology for them, they devalue their own lives and the lives of others for the greater cause, this kind of thinking is usually accompanied by some sort of religious or nationalistic thought, so I'm glad Marida's monologue covered the fact that Zeon became a belief system of hope for many spacenoids. My own personal Zeon fandom comes from this factor, as it resonates with my own beliefs in many ways.


The Federation values order and keeping the status quo, and squashing any ambitions that may lead to warfare or disruption of order, as long as they are still at the top playing a paternal role over everyone, they are good, and they feel they can do it best.If they did'nt oppress Zeon, than the tables could easily reverse in their eyes, and it is a possibility.It is'nt really dragging down the feds to Zeons level, the kind of concepts of good and evil you speak of are really more of a modern western view of things.It's just two ideologies, some end up valuing their ideals over individual rights and freedoms, and life. Which is the kind of thing that Amuro,Camille,Judau, and Banagher were all very much against.

In a way ZZ actually fits that category of the kids forming a new faction because they are "right", they basically hijack the Nahel Argama against orders from the Aeug/Federation union, and go off on their own against Neo Zeon, now they don't fight against both sides, but they did act on their own against both parties.

Could you link me to were it is explained how they killed the citizens of the colony in Operation British ? I'm just curious about the details of the operation, it is never explained that way in MSG. And the only other colony genocide I can think of is the side 2 genocide from 08th ms team.

[Kratos]

My own personal Zeon fandom comes from this factor, as it resonates with my own beliefs in many ways.

Your personal beliefs devalue the lives of human beings as long as some nebulous end is attained? You'd be okay with the massacre of hundreds of millions - perhaps BILLIONS - of innocents so long as there's a chance that something could be gained? I know, Godwin's law and all, but Hitler's government got Germany right back on track unimaginably fast; would you say that it was worth the sacrifice of 11-17 million undesirables? Because this is largely the same thing: "necessary sacrifices" that weren't necessary at all (because even that doesn't win them the war).

Keep in mind that the "greater cause" that Zeon fought for is a giant question mark. It's OSTENSIBLY independence free of sanctions, sure, but then why invade Earth? Neither side is willing to surrender after the One Week War, but Zeon has unquestionable dominance in space, so wouldn't it be rather hard for the Federation to enforce said sanctions? Then, of course, there's the post-OYW conflicts, which have Zeon troops fighting for...what? Their nation is independent (remember, it isn't reabsorbed into the Federation until 0100), so they're fighting for Zabi ideals, which is murderous Spacenoid supremacy doctrine (the exception, of course, is Char's Neo Zeon, which isn't a whole lot better). Deikun, at least, wasn't willing to massacre. I can respect his vision, even though it did breed its own kind of hate, but the belief system implied by the Zabi dynasty's actions is murderous at best, genocidal at worst, and yet is the one that the fans seem to love ("SIEG ZEON", and all that).

the only other colony genocide I can think of is the side 2 genocide from 08th ms team.

0083 has Cima participating in a colony gassing operation too. It's implied in these, and in fact has long been a part of Gundam's fleshed-out history, that numerous colonies were massacred during the Zeon's initial blitz attacks (the idea apparently being that in the face of such staggering death tolls among its citizens, the Federation would have to capitulate). They only show the one in 08th because it was the only one Shiro was present for, but it's referencing the numerous attacks that took place when war was declared.

Could you link me to were it is explained how they killed the citizens of the colony in Operation British ? I'm just curious about the details of the operation, it is never explained that way in MSG.

This was something I wasn't aware of until recently, when I encountered it in The Origin. I'm not sure if it was in one of Gundam's many Japanese language guidebooks before that, but both are equal levels of canon, so take it as you will.

[mcred23]

Could you link me to were it is explained how they killed the citizens of the colony in Operation British ? I'm just curious about the details of the operation, it is never explained that way in MSG. And the only other colony genocide I can think of is the side 2 genocide from 08th ms team.

Here is one post on that subject of the gassings in general, which would include the British colony as well. If you play around with the search function, or look over Mark's site, you can find some other details on things related to it...

You'd be okay with the massacre of hundreds of millions - perhaps BILLIONS - of innocents so long as there's a chance that something could be gained?

Let's just make it clear that if you are talking about Zeon, which we are in this case, the number is in the billions (The open weeks of the OYW had 5.5 billion casualties, the vast, vast majority being civilians intentionally killed by Zeon).

[ShadowCell]

i thought we'd already had the "is Zeon evil? spoiler alert: yes" argument already.

at any rate, the supplemental materials that tell us exactly how many billions of people Zeon kills in the One Year War and exactly what kind of poison gas they use to do it and exactly which colonies get obliterated or whatever are really just filling details into the broad strokes that the original series already gives us. the original series tells us flat out that Zeon starts a war that results in the deaths of half the human population. it shows Zeon dropping a colony. it shows colonies destroyed in the war. it shows Gihren gloating about how his war has reduced the human population to a size more easily controlled by the iron fist of the Zabi family dictatorship. it shows Gihren urging his troops on by telling them that they're the superior race. the sordid details are just that: the sordid details. the Zeon apologist can disregard as many supplemental materials as he wants, but he still has to explain away what goes on in the original series.

what you don't get to say on the basis of pretty much anything in Gundam is that UC Gundam is an ongoing war between two ideologies. because, well, it isn't. Unicorn is, in fact, the first real look at anything you could plausibly call a Federation ideology. before that, it's pretty much "keep order" (which is hardly an ideology) and "stop the genocidal lunatics" (which is more "moral imperative" than "ideology"). you certainly can't say that the Federation is fighting for an ideology in Mobile Suit Gundam; they're fighting an invasion against an enemy that literally wants to wipe out much of humanity. this is why most of UC Gundam's protagonists are antagonistic protagonists--that is, they were forced into the role. rather than be motivated by an ideology, they tend to be motivated by a goal of stopping the latest army of genocidal maniacs from killing everyone.

if anyone's got an ideology in Mobile Suit Gundam, it's Zeon. but even that is suspect because most of the Zeon soldiers we're shown come off simply as working stiffs who just want to do their jobs and not die. Gihren's speech at Garma's funeral is the first time in the show we get a look at the ideology motivating Zeon--and before that, most of the soldiers come off as having forgotten why they're fighting this war in the first place, which is why Gihren takes such pains to remind them.

but then, as you travel through Mobile Suit Gundam, you get more and more looks at Zeon's leadership. and Zeon's leadership decides what Zeon fights for. and Zeon's leadership is, if not actually genocidal, at least perfectly okay with it as a nice little fringe benefit. so when you get to anything you can call Zeon's ideology, well, the genocide and totalitarianism are features, not bugs.

perhaps you're confusing "Zeon" with the fanatics we see in the likes of 0083. of course, 0083 has to show us only the fanatics, because only the fanatics would sit around on a rathole colony dreaming up a suicidal scheme to continue a war they already lost. but by the same token, you can't really say "that's the average Zeon," for the simple reason that it's not. Mobile Suit Gundam shows us a bunch of those guys and they don't really care about ideology, they just want to go home in one piece.

either way, UC Gundam is really not a story of two ideologies. you have to bend and twist some thirty years' worth of writing and animation to fit a preconceived notion, which is why fanboyism is stupid. setting up your universe in this way, in which one faction can reasonably be called "evil" and the other one at the very least "not evil," is actually more conducive to the sort of "moral ambiguity" that Gundam fans constantly want, because it means you can have decent people like Ramba Ral fighting for completely evil people like Gihren Zabi, and the corollary, total dirtbags fighting for a more or less just cause. which is, y'know, how it works in real life.

and as for your apparent personal belief that genocide is acceptable if it makes the totalitarianism of the master race easier to pull off, well, you can just have that belief. then again, i rather suspect you don't actually have that belief, you just haven't thought through the implications of what you're saying. so i guess that's one way to apply the principle of charity.

[Ouroboric]

My own personal Zeon fandom comes from this factor, as it resonates with my own beliefs in many ways.

Your personal beliefs devalue the lives of human beings as long as some nebulous end is attained? You'd be okay with the massacre of hundreds of millions - perhaps BILLIONS - of innocents so long as there's a chance that something could be gained? I know, Godwin's law and all, but Hitler's government got Germany right back on track unimaginably fast; would you say that it was worth the sacrifice of 11-17 million undesirables? Because this is largely the same thing: "necessary sacrifices" that weren't necessary at all (because even that doesn't win them the war).

Yes, if the newtype myth came true than absolutely, making the world a better place on the whole is always more important than the lives of individuals. I am against the notion of Aryan supremacy, and the idea that all Jews are evil. But societal health through eugenics,trumping cultural marxisism that threatened the world(and in many ways prevailed),and reversing cultural degeneration, were all worthwhile to me. Now as far as the slaughtering of gypsies,jews, political dissidents and the like, I of course do not disagree with that, but that is a matter of methods,not ideals.

Keep in mind that the "greater cause" that Zeon fought for is a giant question mark. It's OSTENSIBLY independence free of sanctions, sure, but then why invade Earth? Neither side is willing to surrender after the One Week War, but Zeon has unquestionable dominance in space, so wouldn't it be rather hard for the Federation to enforce said sanctions? Then, of course, there's the post-OYW conflicts, which have Zeon troops fighting for...what? Their nation is independent (remember, it isn't reabsorbed into the Federation until 0100), so they're fighting for Zabi ideals, which is murderous Spacenoid supremacy doctrine (the exception, of course, is Char's Neo Zeon, which isn't a whole lot better). Deikun, at least, wasn't willing to massacre. I can respect his vision, even though it did breed its own kind of hate, but the belief system implied by the Zabi dynasty's actions is murderous at best, genocidal at worst, and yet is the one that the fans seem to love ("SIEG ZEON", and all that).
No doubt that Gihren got greedy, and yes they should have declared peace after the one week war.They weren't officially under the Federation on paper, but they were policed and constantly under surveillance by the federation right after the end of the war, CDA confirms that. The were hardly independent at that point.The Deikun philosophy was still felt within many of the people during and after the war.It got warped by the Zabi's for sure,but the soldiers were fighting for their homeland, and the wellfare of their own people

the only other colony genocide I can think of is the side 2 genocide from 08th ms team.

0083 has Cima participating in a colony gassing operation too. It's implied in these, and in fact has long been a part of Gundam's fleshed-out history, that numerous colonies were massacred during the Zeon's initial blitz attacks (the idea apparently being that in the face of such staggering death tolls among its citizens, the Federation would have to capitulate). They only show the one in 08th because it was the only one Shiro was present for, but it's referencing the numerous attacks that took place when war was declared.

Could you link me to were it is explained how they killed the citizens of the colony in Operation British ? I'm just curious about the details of the operation, it is never explained that way in MSG.

This was something I wasn't aware of until recently, when I encountered it in The Origin. I'm not sure if it was in one of Gundam's many Japanese language guidebooks before that, but both are equal levels of canon, so take it as you will.

[Ouroboric]

i thought we'd already had the "is Zeon evil? spoiler alert: yes" argument already.
It got shot down before I got to respond last time, because we ventured into politics to much

at any rate, the supplemental materials that tell us exactly how many billions of people Zeon kills in the One Year War and exactly what kind of poison gas they use to do it and exactly which colonies get obliterated or whatever are really just filling details into the broad strokes that the original series already gives us. the original series tells us flat out that Zeon starts a war that results in the deaths of half the human population. it shows Zeon dropping a colony. it shows colonies destroyed in the war. it shows Gihren gloating about how his war has reduced the human population to a size more easily controlled by the iron fist of the Zabi family dictatorship. it shows Gihren urging his troops on by telling them that they're the superior race. the sordid details are just that: the sordid details. the Zeon apologist can disregard as many supplemnot ental materials as he wants, but he still has to explain away what goes on in the original series.
Yes, and if your sole moral judgment is based on the idea that killing people is the worst thing you can do, than sure I can give you that. I personally find making people live in shame and oppressing their self determination to be far worse than killing them, the quality of existence is more important that quantity of those who exist

what you don't get to say on the basis of pretty much anything in Gundam is that UC Gundam is an ongoing war between two ideologies. because, well, it isn't. Unicorn is, in fact, the first real look at anything you could plausibly call a Federation ideology. before that, it's pretty much "keep order" (which is hardly an ideology) and "stop the genocidal lunatics" (which is more "moral imperative" than "ideology"). you certainly can't say that the Federation is fighting for an ideology in Mobile Suit Gundam; they're fighting an invasion against an enemy that literally wants to wipe out much of humanity. this is why most of UC Gundam's protagonists are antagonistic protagonists--that is, they were forced into the role. rather than be motivated by an ideology, they tend to be motivated by a goal of stopping the latest army of genocidal maniacs from killing everyone.
Yes they do have an ideology, globalized control of all people through a central authority, that requires an ideological base.The protagonists situation does not reflect the war itself, it's their own part within the war, witch is removed and unsympathetic to the ideals that lead it.Certain elements in Zeon wanted to wipe out much of humanity, but this is'nt a uniform characteristic, it's more so just Gihrens fanaticism
if anyone's got an ideology in Mobile Suit Gundam, it's Zeon. but even that is suspect because most of the Zeon soldiers we're shown come off simply as working stiffs who just want to do their jobs and not die. Gihren's speech at Garma's funeral is the first time in the show we get a look at the ideology motivating Zeon--and before that, most of the soldiers come off as having forgotten why they're fighting this war in the first place, which is why Gihren takes such pains to remind them.
This is true to mobile suit Gundam, but every new addition to the time line essentially changes it and fleshes it out more,crap i'm out of time, will finish this post when i get back.

but then, as you travel through Mobile Suit Gundam, you get more and more looks at Zeon's leadership. and Zeon's leadership decides what Zeon fights for. and Zeon's leadership is, if not actually genocidal, at least perfectly okay with it as a nice little fringe benefit. so when you get to anything you can call Zeon's ideology, well, the genocide and totalitarianism are features, not bugs.

perhaps you're confusing "Zeon" with the fanatics we see in the likes of 0083. of course, 0083 has to show us only the fanatics, because only the fanatics would sit around on a rathole colony dreaming up a suicidal scheme to continue a war they already lost. but by the same token, you can't really say "that's the average Zeon," for the simple reason that it's not. Mobile Suit Gundam shows us a bunch of those guys and they don't really care about ideology, they just want to go home in one piece.

either way, UC Gundam is really not a story of two ideologies. you have to bend and twist some thirty years' worth of writing and animation to fit a preconceived notion, which is why fanboyism is stupid. setting up your universe in this way, in which one faction can reasonably be called "evil" and the other one at the very least "not evil," is actually more conducive to the sort of "moral ambiguity" that Gundam fans constantly want, because it means you can have decent people like Ramba Ral fighting for completely evil people like Gihren Zabi, and the corollary, total dirtbags fighting for a more or less just cause. which is, y'know, how it works in real life.

and as for your apparent personal belief that genocide is acceptable if it makes the totalitarianism of the master race easier to pull off, well, you can just have that belief. then again, i rather suspect you don't actually have that belief, you just haven't thought through the implications of what you're saying. so i guess that's one way to apply the principle of charity.

[ShadowCell]

why is it that whenever i try to apply the principle of charity, it turns out i shouldn't have

Ouroboric, you can't really just assert "yes, the Federation has an ideology, of globalized control," because there is nothing in the animation that supports that. the Federation hardly has an ideology of any sort. you're using the word in a uselessly broad way anyways. asserting it doesn't make it true. point to the animation or manga or sourcebooks or whatever and tell me where there's evidence of some ideology of the Federation--an ideology, that is, not an invention, but the way the dictionary defines it, the way the rest of us use the word.

you'd also have to find some evidence that the Spacenoids are really so horribly oppressed that Zeon slaughtering all of them leaves them better off than they already were (and ironically, if you kill someone, you're oppressing them to the greatest extent possible, by depriving them of their life, the wellspring of pretty much everything else they could have). that's kind of ass-backwards, though, because while when you're alive there's always the possibility things can improve, when you're dead that possibility disappears because, y'know, you're dead. at any rate, the animation shows us a lot of Spacenoids who actually don't appear to be that bad off, and seeing as how the Federation only really picks on the Spacenoids when they're supporting the vestigial remains of the crazy genocidal army that wiped out half the human race, it's kind of hard to see how death is a preferable option.

of course, when the "certain elements of Zeon" that want to wipe out humanity are the leaders, and you do what the leaders say, the end result is that your faction is out to wipe out humanity. which is kind of the point, and it's also where all that "moral ambiguity" comes in.

incidentally, that is the sort of thing Gundam's protagonists are seen to fight against. but that's not really an ideology either.

[Ouroboric]

I will repeat, EVERY form of government has an ideology to it,that is a fact of life. If you are a broad encompassing government that feels that all people should be ruled under the same laws and regulations, then that is an ideological stance you support, it doesn't have to be mentioned,because it is self evident,It's very existence creates the ideology.

Death is not oppression, when you die your consciousness simply ends and you no longer exist. Death is entirely neutral for those who pass away.And certain individuals will get sacrificed for the greater cause that their kins reap the reward of, individualists can't understand this because they are to self absorbed, and have no sense of belonging to a larger whole . That kind of earthly attachment, and over emphasis on the importance of individual life, and it's material aspects is a sickness identified since the early days of humanity.By not having their right to self determination,they are put in a position far worse than poverty or death, that is not such an uncommon value throughout history. I know this is an unpopular stance because it goes against modern moral indoctrination, but not everyone has a petty bourgeois attitude to morality and life. By all means you can call it "evil" or what ever you like, but that doesn't mean it isn't just your own moral projection onto the situation.

So yes by one system of morality Zeon could be considered "evil", but for us who don't agree with that stance in the first place ( or the concepts of good and evil in general) it doesn't really work. Now I understand what you are saying about the "good men work for bad guys" and that is a part of it,and definitely what Tomino was going for,but it's still based on a subjective moral stance.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Why are we even talking about this? This is supposed to be about the alternate universes.

[Ouroboric]

That's my bad, you are right. Anyone who wants to reply to my post should send me a pm. Sorry for derailing the thread.

This is still somewhat UC, but did'nt Tomino have an alternate UC universe? Cutting off his f91,crossbone and victory stuff. I don't mind alternate universes that happen to be the same. Kind of like Do You Remember Love to SDFM, the rein-visioning was something there I enjoyed.

[Chris]

So yes by one system of morality Zeon could be considered "evil", but for us who don't agree with that stance in the first place ( or the concepts of good and evil in general) it doesn't really work. Now I understand what you are saying about the "good men work for bad guys" and that is a part of it,and definitely what Tomino was going for,but it's still based on a subjective moral stance.

Do us all a favor and drop the extreme Zeon fanboyism (as well as your bizarre moral beliefs) from this discussion, as it has no place here. Your personal philosophies are completely off topic and taking over the thread.