Development of Alternate Universes

[Kuruni]

We know the fates of Setsuna and Marina, but don't know about the other members of Celestial Being.

And we also don't know the fate of the almighty Soldier A! (humming Soldier A theme )

More serious post, simply because we don't know about certain characters doesn't mean we "need" to know. Look, you can't have happy peaceful life in Gundam universe if you're still feature prominencely in show (unless it's Gunpla Builder ). And if nothing happen, there's no point to show it.

And thing like Turn A's origin is best left like that, being myth-like background.

[Sume Gai]

And if understanding isn't what you need, then why go telling us that it is?

The Question is; is any real lasting peace possible without some degree of understanding and in turn respect for the other party? I still say understanding is necessary though not necessarily the sole factor.

If you utterly beat a side into submission and then force them to give in to your terms without some degree of empathy they will resent you and more than likely lash out at you later on having mistaken you for a monster lacking empathy rather than another person who had been hurt.

This may seem a brutal point of view but Ali and Ribbons chose to reject the understanding thrust upon them and rather stayed their arrogant courses and wound up dead because of that. The people who rejected their best chance to understand others were the true villains of the series.

Understanding as a means to end conflict does only work when everyone is willing to try. If it -does- work however everyone wins to some degree. so would you rather a series say "Fuck it understanding isn't worth jack." or "Understanding is a path that can end conflict."?

[Cardi Doorl]

More serious post, simply because we don't know about certain characters doesn't mean we "need" to know.

...

And thing like Turn A's origin is best left like that, being myth-like background.

Thank you so much for saying this. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only sci-fi geek who has this attitude about fiction.

[Ouroboric]

I'm torn on it, I think keeping it as myth would work towards the original vision of the show best. On the other hand I do see it as a potential setting for something really great,though a bad writer could completely ruin it very easily. One thing I enjoyed with Turn-A is the two different civilizations coming together after not knowing one another, but yet still coming from the same root. Where almost all other Gundam universes showcased a process of differentiation between peoples, ie. certain people becoming space colonists,leading to a different identity. The moonrace had a very interesting character to it,one that Queen Diana really fleshed out in allot of ways. Maybe even a conflict between the people who choose to stay on the moon, and those that came back to earth. Or some kind of antagonistic force coming from another new civilization of colonists who come back to earth sphere., could serve as a CC foundation. I also would like to see an older Harry Ord.

[farjad93]

More serious post, simply because we don't know about certain characters doesn't mean we "need" to know.
...
And thing like Turn A's origin is best left like that, being myth-like background.

Thank you so much for saying this. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only sci-fi geek who has this attitude about fiction.

Yes, you are not the only geek who shares who shares this view on fiction. However, there are also plenty of geeks who don't share your view. Neither side is right or wrong. I think Turn A's origins offers plenty of potential for an excellent story. Of course, as mentioned by Ouroboric, there's always the risk of bad writing ruining the series, as in the case of SEED Destiny. I also agree that I would like to see an older Harry Ord.

[Kenji]

The Question is; is any real lasting peace possible without some degree of understanding and in turn respect for the other party? I still say understanding is necessary though not necessarily the sole factor.

Yes, any peace requires some degree of understanding. Even effective conquest requires a degree of understanding: Knowing where the divisions in the other parties are, knowing how to provide incentives for one side to turn against the other under your patronage... generally, knowing how to keep from having to post a soldier on every street corner by, at the worst, getting your client faction to do it for you.

Throughout history, larger peace has been fostered by localized chaos in favor of the power du jour. Take our modern peace, which is riddled by perpetual local conflict, making the larger peace possible. Yes, that requires understanding.

However, I question whether 1) such a standard type of understanding that virtually everyone already does is something that needs to be taught, or 2) if something so elementary and "duh!" is what 00 was getting at.

@farjad: Another random thought, on the subject of sequel turnarounds. I wonder if ZZ might've been improved (among the myriad other ways) by a focus on the idea that the Titans might've been right...

[farjad93]

Well, the Titans were founded for the right purpose. That is they were founded to investigate and defend the Earth Federation against Zeon attacks. However, they were allowed to act on their own without any supervision from the EFF. For example, the Titans carried out a gassing operation against a colony simply because some citizens were protesting. What's worse, the Earth Federation refused to hold the Titans accountable. As is inevitable with any organization that is given too much power and not held accountable for its transgressions, their objectives became warped and they eventually became a rogue organization whose only goal was to gain control of the Earth sphere. So much so, that they ally themselves with Axis Zeon at the end of Zeta Gundam, the very nation they were founded to defend against! I personally think that ZZ Gundam was a pretty good series if you got past the first 15 episodes or so. Also, sure, you can make the argument that the kind of peace we have today requires a degree of understanding. This is true. But, it's not true understanding. If it was true understanding, then there would be no conflicts. Mankind would simply get along. And this is what I mean when I say Gundam 00 wasn't "simply" about understanding. Sure, that was a major part of the message, but I don't think it was the only thing.

[HellCat]

With Ali, it's worth looking at his response to Trans-Am Burst which is a look of unease and "What is this sickening feeling?" Why he actually says that could be debated. Is he so twisted the warmth of humanity everyone else is feeling sickens him? Is this the first time he's ever felt such emotions?

As for the Innovades, that's really one of the murkier elements because they are in effect a slave race. If you take all the official info about them Ribbons is still a dictator but also something of a freedom fighter because he and a team of Innovade Meisters were bred to ultimately be killed off by the newly united world. There's a reason after all that the unknowing Innovades seeded across the globe never kicked up a fuss. Again, it takes the Neo-CB and Tieria's involvement for Innovades to get some justice by humans treating them as friends and equals.

[Sume Gai]

Yes it is a simple 'no duh' sort of message but you'd be surprised how -hard- it can be to get those lessons right. In this case people can be very half-assed when it comes to trying to understand someone else; to remember they are human and their thoughts are just as layered, busy and uncertain as your own, that their lives are filled with joys and sorrows equal to or possibly greater than yours.

[ShadowCell]

I think it is worth keeping in mind a little trope called the "Noodle Incident." In Calvin and Hobbes the Noodle Incident was one of Calvin's particularly notable hijinks, mentioned on occasion (in mildly terrified and reverent tones) but never actually explained or depicted. After many requests about it, Bill Watterson said that he had no intention of actually explaining the Noodle Incident because anything he could think up for it could not possibly be as wacky as what we'd already imagined, so anything he could have given us would have just been a disappointment.

I think the same holds true for things like the Black History and the Moonlight Butterfly. The Turn A and Turn X fought what is pretty much Gundam's equivalent to Ragnarok. No other event in Gundam has led to the annihilation of civilization. It's got so much hype and such high expectations built right into it that anything they give us would just be a disappointment anyways.

So that's another thing to keep in mind when you're sequelmongering. If there's nothing there to say either way what's going on in X, then you can make up your own answer; if the holy hand of Sunrise descends from on high to give you an answer, well, you might not like what it gives you.

@farjad: Another random thought, on the subject of sequel turnarounds. I wonder if ZZ might've been improved (among the myriad other ways) by a focus on the idea that the Titans might've been right...

The only Titan who seemed to actually believe in the Titans' cause was Bask, and his application of that ideology came in slaughtering millions of innocent Spacenoids (and of course, by the end of Zeta he was also dead). So I'm not really sure you could address the idea of whether the Titans were right, because most of them were only after their own interests in the first place. Perhaps the better question would be "is the Federation right to clamp down on the colonies to prevent Zeon movements," but Unicorn seems to be taking that up already.

so would you rather a series say "ZOINKS it understanding isn't worth jack." or "Understanding is a path that can end conflict."?

00 says both, but since the message it gives us in text is the latter and the message it gives us in concrete examples is the former, they pretty much cancel each other out and the former wins by default as the null hypothesis. Either way, while understanding of some sort is necessary for peace, as Kenji said, I don't think it's the sort of understanding 00 was getting at. And since the people like Ali and Ribbons are the ones who stoke conflict, they're far more important to address than the likes of Andrei or Billy.

[farjad93]

There is one nagging question I have about the Turn A Gundam and its Moonlight Butterfly: What was the reason for building something with such devastating power in the first place? It's like it was built for the express purpose of destroying civilization. Which brings me to my second question: Why was civilization annihilated?

[Sinquser]

So that's another thing to keep in mind when you're sequelmongering. If there's nothing there to say either way what's going on in X, then you can make up your own answer; if the holy hand of Sunrise descends from on high to give you an answer, well, you might not like what it gives you.

Frozen Teardrop comes to mind. hahah

[HellCat]

There is one nagging question I have about the Turn A Gundam and its Moonlight Butterfly: What was the reason for building something with such devastating power in the first place? It's like it was built for the express purpose of destroying civilization. Which brings me to my second question: Why was civilization annihilated?

I kinda see it as the perfect end to where the UC and first three AUs were pointing humanity- a bigger board with a bigger nail until they built a board with a nail so big, it would destroy them all!!

[farjad93]

Ah, but didn't Endless Waltz end with the following line: "Weapons called mobile suits, including the Gundams, were never seen again". Doesn't that pretty much mean that all warfare and conflict was ended in the After Colony universe? Also, my questions still remain. Why was such a powerful mobile suit built and used to obliterate civilization?

[Dark Duel]

It was, until they decided to write a sequel. Not only Frozen Teardrop completely invalidates the conclusion of Endless Waltz...but frankly, from what I've heard of the stories, I've read better on Fanfiction.net.

[farjad93]

Really? Hmm, I never heard about that. Is it something recent? I suppose that is the risk about trying to develop an AU, the writers could easily mess it up, like the case of Destiny with CE. But I still don't get the reasoning behind the Turn A and Moonlight Butterfly. Was it because mankind was constantly getting into conflicts and fighting each other? If so, how is simply killing everybody off any better?

[ShadowCell]

i don't think we're supposed to know what happened, and, really, it's not as if any answer to your question could be anything but disappointing anyways.

[farjad93]

It's not like I'll be "dissapointed". I simply think it would be cool if more light was shed on the matter.

[zerogradius]

There is one nagging question I have about the Turn A Gundam and its Moonlight Butterfly: What was the reason for building something with such devastating power in the first place? It's like it was built for the express purpose of destroying civilization. Which brings me to my second question: Why was civilization annihilated?

I've wondered this myself. It seems that the Turn X was made by the people of space to counter the Turn A that was made by the people on Earth. Yet, for whatever reason, the Turn A was used against the Earth and the Turn X ended up on the moon. I would have thought it would be the other way around, with the Turn X destroying the Earth's technology.

I think the same holds true for things like the Black History and the Moonlight Butterfly. The Turn A and Turn X fought what is pretty much Gundam's equivalent to Ragnarok. No other event in Gundam has led to the annihilation of civilization. It's got so much hype and such high expectations built right into it that anything they give us would just be a disappointment anyways.

So that's another thing to keep in mind when you're sequelmongering. If there's nothing there to say either way what's going on in X, then you can make up your own answer; if the holy hand of Sunrise descends from on high to give you an answer, well, you might not like what it gives you.

I guess most of the black history is too hard to explain, specifically how UC and AU gundam series occur in the same universe. However, explaining what led to the creation of the Turn A and Turn X, the space colonists leaving the Earth Sphere, and the use of the moonlight butterfly on the Earth is doable, and would definitely pick my interests. Though, you are right about it being done correctly. It easily could degenerate into a mess if handled improperly.

[Ouroboric]

Putting the AU's and UC together is quite a simple task.You would just have to give the earth a much longer life than previously expected.Since they were primarily digging up UC suits in Turn A I would expect that AW,AC and what ever universe G was in came in some order first,AW collapses on itself, humanity starts again,AC collapses on itself and starts again etc etc, with the story of the Black History essentially being the end of the Universal Century, maybe only a few thousand years before.

I would see The Moonlight Butterfly as something not going as it's creator planned,maybe it was meant to have that power, but in a more controlled way. Turn X was meant to stop it from wiping out Moonrace, or what ever dominant faction was in space at the time, and things got out of hand and it somehow wiped out earths civilization instead. After seeing the horrors of technology, the initial people left abandoned high technology for a more primitive lifestyle,slowly letting the knowledge fade away, which led up to what we see in CC, when people start to embrace "progress" and high technology again.