Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

The place to discuss anything relating to anime or manga.
Post Reply
Ceiling_Squid
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:55 am

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Ceiling_Squid » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:45 pm

HellCat wrote:First of all, I'm going to agree that the reputation of Zeta is built on how scarce it was when the English speaking fandom was building up over a decade ago. It was made out to be the ultimate Gundam show and with most of us being hot headed teenagers, we accepted this with little question and told others like it was fact.

......

There's more I could say but for now I'll wrap up. Zeta is far from the worst thing I've ever watched but it's also far from the tightly plotted legend certain fans and indeed even some official references make it out to be.
Those are mostly valid criticisms you've mentioned, and I can see why they'd bother many gundam fans.

But come on, give the show the benefit of the doubt. The show's allure is not solely based on the scarcity of availability like people seem to keep suggesting. In spite of it's easy accessibility now and the number of flaws people have become savvy to, Zeta Gundam still has a strong following. That must mean that Zeta does something right.

I enjoy it immensely, and it's definitely in my top three, but it's not my all-time-favorite, mainly because of the issues and detractions you brought up.

I get it's a matter of personal opinion, but I think it deserves much of the reputation it amassed on merits alone. When I heard that Zeta Gundam was really good, I didn't blindly accept that and tell people to watch it like some "hot headed teenager". I watched it myself first, and then determined that I enjoyed it.

The more I hear statements about "certain fans", and blind acceptance, the more I get the feeling there's an implied backhanded insult about being sheep somewhere in there. I enjoy Zeta Gundam a lot, but I still recognize that it has flaws, ones which ultimately do not reduce my overall enjoyment of the series. I don't think anyone beyond the most blind strawman-fan nowadays would go touting Zeta Gundam as some sort of flawless masterpiece.

Back to the title question from the OP though: It's probably pretty clear to you by now that Zeta fans are an opinionated lot who nonetheless see something in this, your least-enjoyed of Gundam shows.

I think it's becoming increasingly hard to really express what's so "good" about Zeta Gundam because we're all running around in circles on personal opinion alone. And really, I don't think there's a simpler answer. Zeta Gundam is "so great" becuase a lot of people think its great, even in spite of its recognized flaws. There's no accounting for personal taste.

I don't think anything I or anyone else could say could get you to appreciate the show. It's your opinion, not ours.

User avatar
HellCat
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:24 am

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by HellCat » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:09 pm

Ceiling_Squid wrote:
HellCat wrote:First of all, I'm going to agree that the reputation of Zeta is built on how scarce it was when the English speaking fandom was building up over a decade ago. It was made out to be the ultimate Gundam show and with most of us being hot headed teenagers, we accepted this with little question and told others like it was fact.

......

There's more I could say but for now I'll wrap up. Zeta is far from the worst thing I've ever watched but it's also far from the tightly plotted legend certain fans and indeed even some official references make it out to be.
Those are mostly valid criticisms you've mentioned, and I can see why they'd bother many gundam fans.

But come on, give the show the benefit of the doubt. The show's allure is not solely based on the scarcity of availability like people seem to keep suggesting. In spite of it's easy accessibility now and the number of flaws people have become savvy to, Zeta Gundam still has a strong following. That must mean that Zeta does something right.

I enjoy it immensely, and it's definitely in my top three, but it's not my all-time-favorite, mainly because of the issues and detractions you brought up.

I get it's a matter of personal opinion, but I think it deserves much of the reputation it amassed on merits alone. When I heard that Zeta Gundam was really good, I didn't blindly accept that and tell people to watch it like some "hot headed teenager". I watched it myself first, and then determined that I enjoyed it.

The more I hear statements about "certain fans", and blind acceptance, the more I get the feeling there's an implied backhanded insult about being sheep somewhere in there. I enjoy Zeta Gundam a lot, but I still recognize that it has flaws, ones which ultimately do not reduce my overall enjoyment of the series. I don't think anyone beyond the most blind strawman-fan nowadays would go touting Zeta Gundam as some sort of flawless masterpiece.

Back to the title question from the OP though: It's probably pretty clear to you by now that Zeta fans are an opinionated lot who nonetheless see something in this, your least-enjoyed of Gundam shows.

I think it's becoming increasingly hard to really express what's so "good" about Zeta Gundam because we're all running around in circles on personal opinion alone. And really, I don't think there's a simpler answer. Zeta Gundam is "so great" becuase a lot of people think its great. There's no accounting for personal taste.

I don't think anything I or anyone else could say could get you to appreciate the show. It's your opinion, not ours.
I'm referring to a time of a good decade ago, when a majority of us came in with Wing and ate up any information we could find on the shows and to varying degrees took them as fact. Zeta's not the only case of this; I remember folks who would bash G and X based solely on select internet rumour saying they were awful series. To this day even, I'll still see the misinformed argue that X will never be licensed because apparently it just stops with no conclusion and anyone who watches it bursts into flames.

In terms of Zeta, I'm not saying no one can/should like it. I'm just simply stating that as of my most recent viewing, it doesn't sit highly with me personally. I'm currently trying to rewatch everything in order to see what I learn about the franchise as a whole, partly inspired by the ridiculous over reactions to AGE. Since Zeta is where I've currently paused with that project and it carries such a strong reputation (amongst over things, ANY bullying space branch of the Earth forces in later Gundam will be compared to the Titans and the majority will claim they did the idea so much better) it's obviously fresh in my mind and offers the most for me to criticise. I came into this fandom 10 years ago and since then have constantly heard that apparently nothing tops Zeta. With all that praise, I don't think it's unusual to be arguably hard on it when it doesn't seem to measure up. To look at it another way, I know full well there are various people who can't see the same magic I do in 00. I don't loathe Zeta, I just feel its reputation is overstated and somewhat undeserved.
Gundam AGEs Forum- Three destinies will form discussion.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

User avatar
Destiny_Gundam
Posts: 5102
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:36 pm
Location: Canada, eh.
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:16 pm

Ceiling_Squid wrote:I don't think anything I or anyone else could say could get you to appreciate the show. It's your opinion, not ours.
That goes without saying, but the point of this thread wasn't to have people attempt to change my mind. I was just curious about what it was people saw in the series that I clearly didn't.
"In the end, the world doesn't really need a Superman... Just a brave one."

User avatar
Thrawnma
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Thrawnma » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:43 pm

Oh McRed, can I call you Red? Sure I can, your signature says as much. Oh Red. I remember you, and the old days. When GundamEnigma was here, Tomduo..., when there was constant Gundam roleplays going on. I remember Gundam Wing Nataku, which "fixed" Wing by making it more like UC Gundam. Many names from those times elude me but I do remember that time. A conspiracy you roll your eyes at? Of course there's no conspiracy, a conspiracy typically seeks to gain something from its manipulations. And unless you invested a sizable quantity of money into Bandai's entertainment department before the Zeta DVDs were released I have no reason to suspect a conspiracy.

But to roll your eyes at the plain fact that opinions were pushed on the uninformed? Highly biased opinions presented as objective fact? That happened constantly. I was told that Wing, a show I had enjoyed immensely at the time of watching it (who else stayed up late at night to watch the "Uncut" episodes on Midnight Run? C'mon, I know I wasn't the only one who remembers those days) was a bad show. Not in someone else's opinion bad, but flatout BAD. It was a detriment to the name, it was vile putrid filth. And nothing could compare to Tomino's Gundam, nothing was as good as Zeta Gundam, only V Gundam because it was even darker. And I bought into it. I absorbed it, I lapped it up as I dove headfirst into this mysterious and incredible fandom.

But as time went on, as I grew and matured, and began to look upon the things I once thought of and enjoyed and regarded... my views changed. Changed for the better I think. Sure, I lack the feeling of wonder that came from discovering the incredible medium of anime ("It's not cartoons mom! It's ANIME! It's DIFFERENT!"), but I can appreciate things in a much different light now. A light I feel is more revealing, and less judgmental.

No, I don't hate Zeta Gundam. But I do know that a long time ago when this fanbase was still very young here and with very limited access to the source material we relied upon people who had seen the stuff already (or who at least said they knew what it was) to tell us what the score was. And we were given a biased score.

Re: The Squid
Look dude, First Gundam was honestly the only one which presented shades of gray in every level of command. The examples you list are silly. 08th MS Team is terrible for one thing, there's no ambiguity there. There's clearly an evil mad scientist with a hardon for Gihren Zabi and his little sister. 0080 has a dude named KILLING in command of the Zeon forces. KILLING. 0083 shows us another dude obsessed with Gihren Zabi, and Federation Commanders pulling so many double-crosses they don't know when they themselves got crossed.

In contrast First Gundam distinctively has guys like M'Queve and Gihren, true madmen sociopathic murderers who will disregard anything to achieve what they consider their goals to be. But Degwin, for all the evils he committed, finally found his burdens and those of his madman son too much and was killed by his son as he negotiated peace. Revil was an inspiration for the Feds who has yet to ever be matched in ANY series. Garma was a young, brave, naive kid who was betrayed by Char for something he had nothing to do with, and yet he went down fighting. Kycilia was stoic and pragmatic, but still reviled at the patricidal madman who was her brother and killed him as a result. And Dozle was a warrior family man. Did he go mad in the end,? Yeah. Did he ensure his family would be safely taken care of before he did anything, including his baby daughter he loved so much? Yeah, he definitely did. Much more shades of gray here than Delaz, Killing, or Ginias. Hell, lets throw Ramba Ral into the mix for considering higher ranked people. He was a commander who fought bravely and led his men into battle with no fear. The only dude who could be compared to him is Norris.

So yeah, the shades of gray don't pop up in later UC. If anything, black and white is more reinforced. All sense of gray in the upper echelons of leadership are almost completely removed, while even the grunts who always displayed the most gray in First Gundam (distinctly recalling those two Zeon pilots of that recon aircraft dropping supplies to help that woman and her kid who had left White Base) start becoming more and more one-sided.

First Gundam did a lot right. It still had its silliness but at the time they were changing up a lot more stuff than they were keeping around. Then Zeta came back and they just seemed to have a lot more grim universe but with even more old Super Robot shenanigans floating around as a result.

User avatar
ShadowCell
Moderator
Posts: 5827
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by ShadowCell » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:50 pm

well, yeah, if you ignore everything in 0080 except for Colonel Killing, then yes, there is no moral ambiguity, no shades of gray, nothing that forces you rethink your prior opinions of any kind to be found in 0080

User avatar
padre
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:02 am

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by padre » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:55 pm

Destiny_Gundam wrote:None of the characters were particularly likable save a few and spent most of the series bickering with each other.
There's been a whole thread of discussion following this remark. It's somewhat curious. Zeta's cast is one of the reasons it is "so great," not one of the reasons it's not. And not because they really are likable or sympathetic or whatnot, but because they're not.

Let me illustrate. Yesterday I read Marlowe's Jew of Malta, which consists of utterly depraved people doing awful things to one another for five acts. The nadir might be, after a priest sees a fourteen year old girl murdered by her father, he laments that she died because he hadn't had the chance to sleep with her yet.

The Jew of Malta is a tragedy. "Tragedy" is a common enough word, but its meaning has drifted away from what it was originally. Perhaps you distantly remember a high school English teacher telling you that a tragedy is a story in which the characters are destroyed by their own mistakes and flaws. Pretty much everyone in The Jew of Malta is a tragic character. They're all deeply flawed and make (literally) fatal mistakes. They're certainly not likable or sympathetic.

Zeta is the same sort of tragedy. It's about deeply flawed people destroying themselves and everyone around them. It's a tragedy because they could have avoided it if they weren't so stupid, irrational, stubborn, etc. It's a tragedy because it's their own fault.

Examples of this genre could, of course, be multiplied. It is, after all, one of the oldest in the world. I expect everyone is at least familiar with some of Shakespeare's, which are filled with unlikable and unsympathetic characters. Macbeth is a complete monster. Titus Andronicus murders his own son in the first act. Othello kills his wife for completely irrational reasons. Absolutely everyone in Henry VI is awful.

Tragedy isn't really a popular genre anymore. The Jew of Malta was one of Marlowe's most popular plays; it was regularly performed long after his death, until the Puritans closed the theaters. But people have much less of a taste for it nowadays. (Though I think the RSC did a production with Ian McDiarmid a couple years ago.)

But this genre is supposed to have these sorts of characters. That's how it works. A comedy needs jokes, and a tragedy needs flaws and mistakes. Now, I have no idea why people enjoy this sort of fiction, or why they seem to enjoy it less now than they once did. (Or even if they really do enjoy it less now.) But how much one enjoys Zeta depends on one's having a taste for this sort of fiction.
Happiness is a warm gun.
Bang bang, shoot shoot.

User avatar
Destiny_Gundam
Posts: 5102
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:36 pm
Location: Canada, eh.
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:27 am

To me a tragedy is most effective when bad things happen to good people. If you like a character than seeing them killed evokes that much more powerful of an emotion in you. Take Victory: I was so incredibly pissed off/heart broken when Odello got killed. I wish to high heaven that he could have lived and that's what made it so effective.

With Zeta, when there's maybe something that looks like it could be a nice character moment, some how it always turns into an argument about something unrelated. For example, when Reccoa was leaving for Earth Kamille goes to say goodbye and somehow they end up irritated. I mean, the AEUG are supposed to be the 'good guys'. They're supposed to be the people we're rooting for. Instead we cheer when Katz slams into a rock. That's not tragedy, that's sadistic glee. Why would you be sad when some one you hate dies?

Again, why I liked the Zeta movies and that cake scene in particular. Is the Argama crew bickering or talking about something heavy? No, they're just eating cake. It's nice to go "Oh hey, they're decent people after all."

Mind you this applies to protagonists. Villains in general are supposed to be hateable.
"In the end, the world doesn't really need a Superman... Just a brave one."

User avatar
Thrawnma
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Thrawnma » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:43 am

Shadow, man. The point flew over your head. It's all fine and dandy for the men fighting to be shades of gray (not that many were in Zeta either), but the point I was making is that when you're fighting for someone who's decidedly EVIL (all caps) or you work for people who are EVIL (all caps), then those shades of gray are less shades of gray and more being tinted by association. I also defy anyone to tell me Gato was a morally gray dude. Given he committed two major terrorist attacks during a time of peace.

And I LIKE 0083. A lot.

And Padre. Look. Tragedy is only tragic when it happens to people you care about, or can care about or admire. I can't admire Kamille. He whines about his name, hijacks a Gundam for giggles, and then somehow gets into the only military organization with a chain of command that'll tolerate him. This is bad comedy.

More importantly, people are giving Zeta Gundam way, way too much credit for a series about giant robots and psychic powers. This is what has always happened: "It's not fun, so it must be deep, that's why I don't like it. I'll have to study it in-depth..."

It's not a phenomenon isolated to Zeta Gundam. Sometimes apples are just apples, and Christian iconography is just cool looking stuff. Evangelion has suffered this too.

Would you like to know a show that's honestly fun to watch, genuinely tragic, and dark? Watch Tekkaman Blade. The entire series was released much cheaper than Zeta Gundam, and I'd rather watch someone called D-Boy (short for "Dangerous Boy") than Camille.

But seriously, watch Tekkaman Blade. That's good ZOINKS.

User avatar
Destiny_Gundam
Posts: 5102
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:36 pm
Location: Canada, eh.
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:56 am

Thrawnma wrote:I also defy anyone to tell me Gato was a morally gray dude. Given he committed two major terrorist attacks during a time of peace.
Isn't it grey in the sense that from Gato's POV what he was doing was good, and Kou obviously didn't agree, but who's to say who is actually right?
"In the end, the world doesn't really need a Superman... Just a brave one."

User avatar
ShadowCell
Moderator
Posts: 5827
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by ShadowCell » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:03 am

Thrawnma wrote:Shadow, man. The point flew over your head. It's all fine and dandy for the men fighting to be shades of gray (not that many were in Zeta either), but the point I was making is that when you're fighting for someone who's decidedly EVIL (all caps) or you work for people who are EVIL (all caps), then those shades of gray are less shades of gray and more being tinted by association. I also defy anyone to tell me Gato was a morally gray dude. Given he committed two major terrorist attacks during a time of peace.
i, uh, never said anything about 0083.

this thread isn't about 0080, so all i'll say is that good people working for bad people and thus enabling bad people is, in fact, the point of 0080 and its moral ambiguity. the existence of Colonel Killing doesn't prevent 0080 from portraying those shades of gray; it's what enables it to do so. we see in Bernie a fundamentally decent and sympathetic person, but he's also working for Killing, who is not; but to just write off Bernie as tainted by his association with Killing is to ignore the complexity of the matter. and that complexity is the entire reason why you portray shades of gray in the first place.

of course, Zeta hardly ever even tried to do this with the Titans. they had Emma (who defected) and Ajis Aziba (a one-off character who, if memory serves, got blown away for his troubles anyway). otherwise we had the likes of Bask, Yazan, Jerid, and Scirocco.

User avatar
padre
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:02 am

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by padre » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:12 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:To me a tragedy is most effective when bad things happen to good people. If you like a character than seeing them killed evokes that much more powerful of an emotion in you.
...
Why would you be sad when some one you hate dies?
I rather thought the point I was making was that bad things happening to good people aren't tragedies. As I said, the colloquial sense of the word "tragedy" has got away from its literary sense. A tragic character brings her fate on herself. For example, Four and Rosamia aren't tragic characters; they're destroyed by powers beyond their control. It might be appropriate to use the colloquial sense of "tragic" to describe them, but not the literary sense.

I wouldn't assume that the point of tragedy is to evoke sadness. Aristotle thought the point was to evoke pity and fear (which makes it sound rather like horror). I have no idea what the attraction of tragedy is, just that people have been attracted to it for a long time.
Thrawnma wrote:Tragedy is only tragic when it happens to people you care about, or can care about or admire.
That sounds pretty obviously false. Macbeth is one of Shakespeare's most popular plays. It's obviously a tragedy. Macbeth isn't admirable. He's despicable. I can't imagine anyone has any affection for him. Examples could be multiplied; I gave several (including this one) in the preceding post.
Happiness is a warm gun.
Bang bang, shoot shoot.

User avatar
Thrawnma
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:09 pm
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Thrawnma » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:14 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:
Thrawnma wrote:I also defy anyone to tell me Gato was a morally gray dude. Given he committed two major terrorist attacks during a time of peace.
Isn't it grey in the sense that from Gato's POV what he was doing was good, and Kou obviously didn't agree, but who's to say who is actually right?
That takes the subjectivity too far. Suddenly we're entering the treacherous territory where overly emotional teens acting out start talking about how if it's okay with THEM to kill babies then no one can tell them they're wrong because it's not wrong according to them.

It's an extreme example, but it's what I'm pointing out. Gato was no more admirable than the guys who committed the Pearl Harbor bombing... except he was acting out with a rogue element on behalf of a dead nation. So he's halfway in-between a terrorist bomber and a Pearl Harbor bomber. In either case he's hardly a person you can admire, except for perhaps his single-minded zealotry.

But that digresses.

Shadow:
Then the point I made flew over your head once more. If you're going to not get the point, or if you're ignoring it, then you're not endearing yourself to me.

For the record I never said that the soldiers weren't gray, in fact I pointed out they could still continue to be. The problem, I said, was that when you work for an evil organization (like the Titans, Delaz Fleet, for Ginias or Killing) but still pet kittens and play fair, you're still working for an evil set of bastards. You're still coming off as the one nice guard in the Big Bad Evil Guy's fortress of eviltude. This isn't moral gray here.

And again like I had stated, Zeta threw even the one nice kitty petting guard out the window with Titans. They likely tied him up in a sack with his kitty, and threw him into the flooded moat. To make it worse, the moat likely had spikes at the bottom. Because that's how over the top evil the Titans were.

Padre:
It's possible to admire someone, or a facet of them, something that could have been polished into something great, without generally liking them. Might even hate them. But no one's ever said you can't respect an enemy.

I'd also stop from using comparisons of Shakespeare to Gundam. You're giving way too much credit to the stuff.

User avatar
Dark Duel
Posts: 4763
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:39 pm
Location: A blue City in a red State

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Dark Duel » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:33 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Isn't it grey in the sense that from Gato's POV what he was doing was good, and Kou obviously didn't agree, but who's to say who is actually right?
Absolutely not. Gato is, as Thrawn said above, a zealot. There is literally no moral ambiguity (nor much personality) about him.

And intentions or abstract rhetoric don't matter in the least: Delaz, Gato and their merry gaggle of fanatics might claim they're doing the right thing, and they can cloak their actions in as much high-minded and noble-sounding nonsense as they want, that doesn't change the fact that they were terrorists.
I'm sure John Wilkes Booth thought he was doing good - that doesn't mean he wasn't a murderer.

The same goes, by and large, for the Titans.
I'm not going to pretend that Zeta was a morally gray series - it wasn't, anymore than the original Gundam was: With very few exceptions, the Titans were basically an assortment of genocidal maniacs, manipulative bastards, and assorted dastardly characters. And the ones that weren't end up dead.

Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the show.
// ART THREAD // NOT ACCEPTING REQUESTS
// GUNPLA THREAD //

"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."

User avatar
HellCat
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:24 am

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by HellCat » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:04 am

I think Gato gets a bad rap. Going back to online hype, everyone would tell me that Gato is a one note character who does nothing but spout pro-Zeon nonsense. But both times I've watched 0083 he's come off fairly strongly. Yes, he's in quite deep with the misguided side of Zeon but at the same time he constantly acknowledges the allies who are sacraficing themselves in order for him to be able to complete Stardust. The only time he really loses that is his final minutes when he seems clearly obsessed on finishing it with Kou. He's not the greatest character ever but I found him fairly interesting, a man who has become a legend but feels he's failed in his key goal. Clearly an extremist but with each successive OYW OVA seeming to make the Zeon more and more 'Space Nazis', there have been worse.
Gundam AGEs Forum- Three destinies will form discussion.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

User avatar
Mu La Flaga
Posts: 1437
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:06 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Mu La Flaga » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:50 am

Ok time to drop in to the thread and add my opinion to things.

Firstly to answer the 2 questions.

1.Age 28.
2.Gundam Wing

As for Zeta Gundam to an extent I agree with DG, Zeta did have a habbit of sometimes dragging on or getting a very strong slightly overhyped reputation.
The character points I see what some people have said though, but at times they don't exactally endear themselves to you, depending on who your interested in watching or not.

I would say also I got more enjoyment out of Destiny and SEED for fights.
Zeta's ones lack something at times, I mean yeah they are done well in terms of how the fights play out.
But stilll.

Overall though if I had to say my favourite Gundam tv series thus far would be Gundam X actually for me.
That may change later in time, but we will see.

I put Zeta on a mid level rating for myself, since it contributes ALOT to UC, but it sometimes lacks in some small bits, but is good in other bits though.

User avatar
NewtypeS3
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:25 am
Location: The Junk Guild
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by NewtypeS3 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:26 am

Thrawnma wrote:You're still coming off as the one nice guard in the Big Bad Evil Guy's fortress of eviltude.
It's quite telling that we only saw maybe four overly redeemable people in the Titans. One was, of course, Emma. And she jumped ship as soon as she could. Some of the others are more debatable, but we can include Sarah, Mouar and that one unnamed guy from Dakar who tried to save civilians from a crashing mobile suit.

And guess what else they have in common?
Spoiler
Show
They all also died.
Well, maybe not that unnamed guy, but I doubt the Titans really liked him not shooting frantically at the AEUG forces. So maybe he did offscreen.
Dunno what that says about being a "good person" on a side with evil so blatant they hand out top hats and mustaches to twirl. With complimentary rope to tie babies to train tracks.

Imperial
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:52 pm
Location: Athens, GA
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Imperial » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:36 am

I'm not sure I'd really count Sara among the "good" ones when she so willingly went along with Sirocco's schemes. However, I'll admit I'm splitting hairs. By this line of reasoning, every Titan who stuck around is inherently evil, yet Mouar and unnamed Dakar guy (Addis Aziba, actually) seemed to have some semblance of moral fiber. Why they stuck around with the guys who were known for gassing innocent populations is anyone's guess and would have been worthy of more attention. We can spin our wheels on misguided patriotism or groupthink or whatever else, but it's mostly a mystery why they all don't "pull an Emma"

As for what actually befell Aziba,
Spoiler
Show
I'm pretty sure Jerid kills him on the spot for fraternizing with the enemy.
This space for rent

User avatar
padre
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:02 am

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by padre » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:52 am

Thrawnma wrote:Padre:
It's possible to admire someone, or a facet of them, something that could have been polished into something great, without generally liking them. Might even hate them. But no one's ever said you can't respect an enemy.

I'd also stop from using comparisons of Shakespeare to Gundam. You're giving way too much credit to the stuff.
Sure, that's possible, but the point in question is whether it's happening or not. You can insist that everyone who engages with Macbeth (the play) admires something about Macbeth (the man), but 1) I'd like to see some evidence (it is, after all, an empirical claim), and 2) I know it's false in my own case, since I find nothing admirable about Macbeth at all. It's also why it's useful to consider the more extreme examples of the genre, like the Marlowe play I mentioned, where it's completely unbelievable that anyone admire anything about Barabas (or anyone else in the cast really). That's why it's so fascinating that the play was so popular; it's so unclear what the attraction is.

And really, the suggestion that people can find something to admire in Macbeth but not in Kamille, when Macbeth is far and away the worse person, is sort of baffling.

I'm talking about genre not quality. Most people's only exposure to tragedy as a literary genre is the Shakespeare plays they had to read in high school or possibly Oedipus Rex. It is useful to illustrate with examples people are actually familiar with. (It's much less likely people have read Marlowe, but hopefully people have at least heard of him and maybe know something about Doctor Faustus.)
Happiness is a warm gun.
Bang bang, shoot shoot.

User avatar
ShadowCell
Moderator
Posts: 5827
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by ShadowCell » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:22 pm

I understand your point perfectly, Thrawnma; it's just oversimplified and misunderstands the meaning of "shades of gray."

And that's the last I'm going to say on that.

User avatar
Scorpius7692
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:10 pm
Location: A Gaza-C in Gryps II Space

Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Scorpius7692 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:46 pm

To give my two cents on the matter, I do agree that Zeta has a bit too much hype, which is not to say that I don't like the show. Even though I haven't finished the entire series (3-5 episodes left to go), and I haven't seen the show for a little while, I think I have developed my own opinion about the show.

I immensely enjoyed the early episodes, for many reasons. On top of the list is the idea of a conflict between the Titans and AEUG. When I started watching Gundam last summer (starting with the original), it slightly annoyed me that the good guys were always fighting some form of Zeonic enemy. I thought it was interesting to have a branch of the Federation play the role of the evil group, and to have a rebel-like group oppose them. The early episodes made me fall in love with the Rick Dias, a mech I once thought would be liable to diabetes and being destroyed very easily, mainly because Char was quite the badass while piloting it. The battles and pacing made me want to see the series until the end, and I was pretty sure that the show deserved its high pedastal. I liked the battle at Jaburo, Amuro defeating an Asshimar without a mobile suit, and launching Char back into space. The only gripes I had was with Kamille's character at the beginning, but I had heard that he became more badass and mature halfway through, and I couldn't wait to see that. The other gripe was that the Titans used the Zeonic mono-eye suits, and I thought that they should have used more GM-looking suits, but I didn't care that much because I'm a sucker for Zaku-like suits, and the Hizack was like a dream come true.

Then came Four.

I don't hate Four. Not too much. I mostly didn't like the story arc that involved her. I think that it could've been done a lot better then it was. Although I admit that, in MSG, the relationship between Lalah, Amuro, and Char could've had more screen time, I thought that it had worked out quite well. While I didn't shed tears of ultimate depression when Lalah died, it still worked well to show how Amuro and Char were affected by those events, turning them into more spiteful, vengeful rivals. Watching the relationship between Four and Kamille was just odd. I noticed right away the Newtype weirdness, and the foreshadowing from Amuro, and knew right away that bad stuff was going to happen. Much rather then feel or comprehend Kamille's emotional angst over the whole thing, I was just waiting for Four to kick the bucket. And the two of them were so awkward around each other. Amuro and Lalah weren't that awkward around each other, and they got even less screen time.

Don't get me started on the whole 'Four is alive in Kilamanjaro' arc either. I was okay with the way she had 'died' the first time around helping Kamille get back to space. Having her come back just so Jerid could kill her and ignite Kamille's wrath was just dumb. Kamille already hated Jerid for plenty of reasons, for example, killing his mother and then showing no remorse about it.

And Jerid. I would've taken him more seriously if he hadn't been piloting the Gundam Mk-II like a dumb-dumb in the first episode. And while for many of the mechs in Zeta, where I hated the lineart but loved them in animation, I never liked the Byalant. Those stubby little arms with straw-sized fingers are just weird and useless.

And poor Char. He gets a powerful new bling-bling suit, and Kamille has to constantly save him because he can't seem to pilot it. Char piloted his red Rick Dias well enough. The Titans should count themselves lucky he hadn't painted the Hyaku Shiki red, or else he would have been unstoppable.

And Reccoa. I don't even think I have to say anything.

Overall, I loved the beginning, was okay with the rest of the Earth arc, and then felt as if the show was going in a downward spiral, mostly because of characters making stupid decisions (I'm looking at you, Reccoa), and because the show's dark nature and constant arguing had started to get pretty boring. Zeta Gundam is not a bad show, but its not amazing either. I found I liked the original Gundam more, if only because it wasn't always so dark all the time, arguments didn't happen every five minutes, and the different story arcs were usually pretty good. The only thing I can't forgive MSG for is the G-Armor stuff.

So, yeah, my two cents. There ya go.
Fear the power of the skirted suit. Fear it.

Post Reply