Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

[Destiny_Gundam]

1.) 24

2.) Gundam Wing

Though I'm not too sure how it would be relevant to the liking of Zeta. A better point of comparison would be asking what our favourite Gundam series are to give a sense of what we like. My top two are X and 00.

I'll admit I prefer more light hearted fare than Zeta's bleakness, which is why Zeta and Victory rank so low for me. But like I said before, at least Victory's characters were a hell of a lot more likable and they actually had a sense of comradery. The Argama crew lacked that.

I used to really like Emma at first, but rewatching it all she does is nag nag nag and give poor Henken (one of the few likable characters) the cold shoulder. She never did anything noteworthy pilot wise either and all things considered I think Elle did a much better job in the Mark II.

I must say I'm surprised to see so many people not liking Zeta all that much.

[JulieYBM]

I've got a serious two questions for everyone here:

1. How old are you people?

2. What was your first Gundam series?

These two questions may help explain why some people like Zeta better than others.

I'm currently twenty-one and got hooked on Gundam with New Mobile Report Gundam Wing when it first hit Toonami. It was a big thing among the kids in the neighborhood, so Gundam fever lasted a while. I remember loving Mobile Fighter G Gundam and Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team (this was particularly popular amongst my two friends who were a good three years my senior) In eighth grade I needed a book to read for reading class (yeah, I don't understand that either) and came across the re-release of Tomino's original novels (with the silver cover). I've been addicted since. I still have that copy of the novels, even though it was beat up from being in my backpack throughout eighth to twelth grades. I think I've read it five or six times now, actually. Anyhow, I got the five movie set Bandai put out (with that awful and thick cover that breaks easily) and continued to fall in love. I got the two-disc Zeta DVDs as Bandai was putting them out, too. I've seen Zeta three times now, I think. I've also seen War in the Pocket once and Stardust Memory twice (Horikawa Ryou!).

Come to think of it, I don't think I've watched Wing in eleven years...I might pick it up, if only to see Midorikawa Hikaru finally successfully blow himself up. :p

[Imperial]

I've got a serious two questions for everyone here:

1. How old are you people?

2. What was your first Gundam series?

These two questions may help explain why some people like Zeta better than others.

1. I am 23-years-old.

2. Gundam Wing on Toonami. And though this was not a part of the question, my current favorite Gundam showing is G Gundam. The first season of Gundam 00 clocks in at second, and Char's Counterattack is the third. If that gives you any indication of my tastes and such...

Now, to put a question back on you: Is this to say we may not like Zeta because we're naive, young Wingers who don't know any better?

If anything, I think it's the opposite. I loved Zeta upon seeing it the first time for its dark, gritty trappings. I was around...17? I thought that more horror was analogous to more substance. Then I realized there are more nuanced, complex ways to convey themes of despair and the human condition than simply trotting out a horror show.

It's the same reason the "torture porn" sub-genre of horror flicks don't work. Just being grotesque isn't enough to really move an audience in any meaningful way.

[NewtypeS3]

I've got a serious two questions for everyone here:

1. How old are you people?

2. What was your first Gundam series?

These two questions may help explain why some people like Zeta better than others.

I'll be honest, I don't see what this remotely has to do with liking or disliking Zeta, but here's my half-cent of thoughts (I'm too poor to afford the other cent and a half)
1) 26, as of August.
2) Gundam Wing was my first, as I can probably say with certainty that it was for just about everyone here. Which is why I wonder why this question is relevant. After all, it didn't stop me from seeing every other Gundam series on the market.

I have to agree with a lot of the people here about Zeta - it had some really good ideas that pushed the original ideas formed in the original series even further. We saw the fallout of the One Year War, and even went on a "world tour" to meet up with some of the more popular cast members of the show as well. Even the main character of the previous show made a solid appearance, showing that all was not well with the guy, despite being one of the keys to victory the last time around.
And then you get to the execution.
Where the plot crawls for what feels like weeks before anything interesting happens. And interesting things, such as the Earth arc, wind up taking wayyyy too long and shoehorned in one of the worst "romances" in Gundam. All to hammer home a message that "history repeats itself" which was so far from necessary that they did it again a second time around near the end of the series. Not to mention that a lot of the character interaction often relied upon people either being complete morons or stubborn jerks who refuse to admit anything. Or both.

And then that ending.
Honestly, both language versions came across as "we're trying to show something very deep and extremely dark, but our character being insane isn't helping and we don't have enough time to show you a proper ending... so see you next show!"

At least Gundam vs Zeta Gundam was a blast.

[ShadowCell]

why are you asking us for our ages and first Gundam shows we saw?

[TheGundamMKII]

I was just curious to see if there was a trend, that's all.

I suppose asking why Zeta is better than any other show is kind of like asking why Chocolate ice cream is better than Vanilla. You may prefer one over the other; or maybe you don't like either, but that doesn't make one good or bad.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

1. How old are you people?

I'll be 25 in four days.

2. What was your first Gundam series?

Gundam Wing of course. I believe I first saw it in early 2001, so i would have been fourteen at the time. Holy freakin' crap...

It all could just be a simple matter of the ones that like it are the most vocal like that one guy said. As for my own self I enjoyed Zeta far more than Victory. Victory was so depressing that I stopped watching it for a month before I powered through it. Compared with that, Zeta is all sunshine and roses!

I think instead of throwing out all our opinions, we need to objectively stack Zeta up against the other UC series and see where it lies. Unless you just want to go the route of pure personal preference.

And is it just me, or was everyone who responded to GundamMk.II's questions between 21 and 30?

[Ceiling_Squid]

I find it odd that the poster came into this topic expecting a bunch of people defending Zeta Gundam. It seems to me that quite the opposite is the case. It's actually rather in-vogue to knock Zeta Gundam like it's an idol to be overturned.

Seeing as Zeta seems to have plenty of fierce defenders and detractors alike, we should likely chalk this up to personal preference rather than try to objectively rate it. It's nowadays a divisive series, seeing as has had far more exposure and is no longer stated as the objectively best gundam.

So yeah, keep in mind that what follows is my personal take on the show, make of that what you will:

Call me a sheep, but I've come to really like Zeta Gundam, after a couple watchings. I didn't mind the darkness or the fact that the characters are generally unsympathetic. I just accepted that this was the bleak worldview Tomino wanted to present.

As far as combat sequences, yeah, they weren't the best. That much I'll admit. But the quality of the show's fantastic musical score more than made up for it.

Is it the best Gundam ever? I don't think so, seeing as the franchise has been refined so much since then. But given that it's a product of the time it emerged, the show is one of those iconic keynotes in anime history. I think it was ambitious. Did it veer often into meaningless darkness and feature an often-unlikeable cast? Sure. Were the Titans unequivocally evil, without moral complexity?

You bet they were. But Gundam was never all that morally-complex until the later years. That's far more a product of the balanced approach of the OVAs which we're all well familiarized with, with entries like 0080, 0083, 08th MS, and most recently, Unicorn. We shouldn't forget that it took some time for Gundam to take the form we're familiar with today. The shades of grey came in later, as the timeline was fleshed out more.

The biggest complaint I've heard from people that watch Zeta with me is that the characters are often unlikeable and do incredibly stupid things. To that I say, why not? I think Tomino believed that people often were very stupid. People do get away with doing foolish things for a very long time, with no repurcussions. Katz's death often evokes cheers, but me? It made me sigh. It was pitiable that, in spite of all his chances, he never learned.

And as far as hate for Kamille goes, I accepted that his dramaticism was the sort of angst you see in 80s anime, and the fact that he lost his parents and was immature sort of justified it in my mind. Lots of teenagers are pretty angsty IRL, Kamille was just one of those personality types.

Maybe people don't want to see such qualities in their fictional protagonists, but I accept that a lot of real teenagers are unlikeable, immature drama queens. I pitied Kamille, and a lot of other characters in Zeta Gundam also evoked pity in me, mostly due to their follies.

Maybe I'm seeing some deeper quality in the show that isn't actually there, but I tend to think that many people really are that foolish and overwrought. TheGundamMKII hit the nail on the head, I think, mentioning "good people making bad decisions."

On top of this, Zeta Gundam offerred what I thought was one of the most impressive antagonists - Paptimus Scirocco. Of all the Gundam villians, that guy was the most charismatic, had the most sinister presence, and was the least-readable of all. He really made me wonder what he was thinking, and always commanded a scene. That, and I think Scirocco had one of the most visceral death scenes in all of anime.

I respectfully disagree with the opening poster on comparing Zeta unfavorably to SEED Destiny. I think the comparison is almost odious, and doesn't do Zeta any justice.

Tomino may have foolishly and pointlessly gone over the edge with much of the darkness he portrayed in Zeta. But unlike the writers of Destiny, who are apparently slaves to the character popularity polls, at least he had the balls to kill off cast members, and make a very FINAL finale. I'll take a sudden and meaningless death over a boring invincible hero. Kamille's fate at the end of Zeta still gives me chills.

If there's one thing I can fault Tomino for, its for cramming the deaths of much of the main cast into the finale, rather than spreading it out a bit more. Zeta does in many ways become a bit of a body tally at the end, where you're basically asking "who dies next?" But at least the stakes were high.

[ZeonsSilverStar]

I'm 21 now and my first Gundam series was Wing like most people I guess. But I was about sixteen when I watched Zeta. Even back then I didn't have a problem with it so maybe its just a matter of taste. That being said I just like darker tones, thats not to say that I dislike light hearted shows but its just a preference.

[Destiny_Gundam]

The biggest complaint I've heard from people that watch Zeta with me is that the characters are often unlikeable and do incredibly stupid things. To that I say, why not? I think Tomino believed that people often were very stupid. People do get away with doing foolish things for a very long time, with no repurcussions. Katz's death often evokes cheers, but me? It made me sigh. It was pitiable that, in spite of all his chances, he never learned.

The problem is if you don't like a character you really don't care what happens to them. Why should I be invested in Kamille's journey if all he does is irritate me?

I was sad when Mouar and Henkin died.

I respectfully disagree with the opening poster on comparing Zeta unfavorably to SEED Destiny. I think the comparison is almost odious, and doesn't do Zeta any justice.

I wasn't comparing them. I was just saying that I enjoyed Destiny more than Zeta.

[JulieYBM]

I don't quite get the Kamille hate. By twenty episodes in he had moved past his sulking and began taking an active role as a leader and mentor-esque figure in the AUEG (God knows he tried slapping some sense into Katz and Sara). Any time Kamille did get upset again (like after Four's death) he got over it by the next episode and cowboy'd up. When he tended to accuse people of being malicious or stupid...he was always on the dot. Scirocco and Haman? Malicious. Reccoa? Dumb as a brick. I would have loved to see Kamille return half-way into Double Zeta, taken up the Zeta Gundam again, and started mentoring Judau and friends. I think it would have really helped strengthen the sort of redemption-esque theme Tomino was looking for after how dark Zeta got.

[Destiny_Gundam]

I don't particularly hate Kamille, but the way he'd lash out at any sort of authority figure and antagonise pretty much everyone, even the ones he supposedly likes (Fa being the most glaring example) didn't endure him to me. He doesn't like living under the Titans and joins the AEUG but once he's with the AEUG all he does is complain about that too. Rather than growing it felt like Kamille regressed instead, becoming more angry and cynical. Hell, I'd say he was better off getting mind fried. At least he was happy.

[Dark Duel]

I'd have to admit to agreeing that Kamille is not the most likable protagonist Gundam's ever seen.
The way the character is handled is, with the exception of a select handful of episodes, generally one of the things that I think could've been handled much better.
In my opinion he does get better as the series passes its midway point or so when he sort of takes the even-more-annoying Katz under his wing, and actually does mature somewhat (at least as much as one can expect a teenager to mature, anyway) by the series's end.
Then Scirocco psycho-fries his brain, which I thought was rather silly.


On a side note, SEED Destiny is at least just as guilty of grossly mishandling its protagonist, and in my opinion does an even worse job of it. And that's all I'll say on the subject.

[Ceiling_Squid]

I suppose, Destiny_Gundam, that I actually did find the characters interesting enough to care about their fates. I didn't necessarily like all of them as people, but I didn't hate them enough to not give a damn about what happened to them.

I don't see why a character has to be likeable on a personal level in order for them to contribute to an interesting story. I suppose that Kamille in particular suffers from divisive writing, mainly because some viewers can put up with him and others can't. I must have a lot of patience, then. I like Kamille in spite of his flaws, or rather, because it's the Gundam story I've come to expect - a boy growing out of his immaturity.

As I may have implied before, I'll take Zeta Gundam characters -- with all their foibles, overdramatics, and annoyances -- over the boring Mary Sue that is Kira Yamato and his bunch of allies by the time they show up in SEED Destiny.

And I really have to beg to differ, I thought Kamille did improve as the series went on, and I started to really like the fact that he was taking charge. Scirocco mind-frying him was a stroke of cruelty in Tomino, and i can see why he rewrote the ending in the movie trilogy...but I think the series had a good ending. It was shocking, and it gave the viewer pause, for better or worse. It is a nasty and brutish fate for Kamille, but Scirocco was a truly dangerous antagonist. He wasn't just going to die quietly.

Kamille, while improving, had gained all his experience in a relatively short time, and was still ultimately a kid thrust into a war. I'm surprised that he hadn't bitten the dust earlier, from a logical standpoint (though meta-wise, we all knew he'd survive to the end, being the protagonist). I think his fate was jarring, yet fitting for the tone of the series.

Besides, he recovers his mental faculties by the end of ZZ Gundam. I think that is one of the handful of good things that ZZ did. Kamille suffered tremendously, went through a lengthy recovery, and then finally had his happy ending. If anything, I find that endears me to the character more. It's a shame that ZZ is largely a subpar show, because if more people watched it, they might have a bit more closure on the Kamille matter. If only he had featured in ZZ a bit more, though...

I wasn't comparing them. I was just saying that I enjoyed Destiny more than Zeta.

No, no, perhaps my wording was confusing or incorrect. "Compare unfavorably" didn't mean that. You're setting them side-by-side for comparison and Zeta Gundam was unfavorable to you when compared to SEED Destiny. That's what I meant when I said "comparison", I wasn't implying you were saying the two series were at all similar.

I can see why people don't enjoy Zeta Gundam, and I respect that you stick it well at the bottom of your list. It just happens to be near the top of mine, though I don't find it to be the best Gundam ever. We're coming from diametrically-opposed sides of the scale here on the series in question, and I don't think anything I could say would make you like it at all anyway.

[Destiny_Gundam]

I brought up Destiny just to clarify my position on Zeta further, since I know Destiny is widely considered to be the worst Gundam has to offer. Despite this I do indeed rank it higher than Zeta.

What prompted me to start this thread was mcred23's post in the current Double Zeta thread. He said it was "certainly not as good as Zeta" and that had me thinking "in what way is Zeta 'good' anyways?" So I wanted some one to point out what sets Zeta above the rest in terms of quality because it seemed like I was missing something.

Didn't expect to find out Zeta isn't as lauded as I initially believed.

[flamingtroll]

I just want to point out that many "old" fans of gundam, those that watched 0079 as a kid didn't necessary like Zeta either, for various reasons. For me personally though I like Zeta mostly for its updated mecha designs. It was also interesting to watch dysfunctional people doing stupid things. Some pointed out the unnecesesary amount of throw away MS; I think it was because back then there was an even bigger focus on pumping out and showcasing model kit designs than now, not unlike the monster of the week and various gundam combiners in 0079 TV. "Character development" is certainly not the type you see these days. Tomino characters have always been more like character studies rather than actual characters. You are supposed to just get what a character is like and what the writer is trying to say about the character by a couple of actions they did, while the rest of the the time they are just there for plot. I don't think Katz is framed as a tragedy of war as some suggested, but just a tragedy of being stupid and misguided. If Tomino wanted him to be a tragic war figure, he wouldn't have made him so annoying and have him killed himself ramming into a rock.

[zetatype]

1) 23

2) Gundam Wing but the original gundam solidified me as a gundam fan

I remember when I finally got the entire series on DVD that I was pretty hyped for it, partly due to the reviews on this site. The impression I got was that if you enjoyed the original gundam then you would enjoy Zeta Gundam much more. Well its been 4-5 years since I watched the series and to be honest I really don't know where I stand on Zeta gundam. I say this because I don't really remember how I felt about it other than the fact that I was underwhelmed. I didn't think it was as good as the original gundam (I hold the original in high regard) but I certainly didn't dislike like. Hopefully I'll be able to get around to watching the series again because where I stand on the issue of Zeta Gundam is starting to bug me.

[mcred23]

What prompted me to start this thread was mcred23's post in the current Double Zeta thread. He said it was "certainly not as good as Zeta" and that had me thinking "in what way is Zeta 'good' anyways?" So I wanted some one to point out what sets Zeta above the rest in terms of quality because it seemed like I was missing something.

How did I know this was all my fault?

For what it's worth, I made that comment because Zeta is generally viewed as one of the better series in Gundam and is usually held in high regard, which is something I agree with. I know this isn't the case for everyone, because no Gundam series is universally loved by everyone, and we've had this same discussion a couple of times in the past (And I'm pretty sure a few of the same posters in this thread had raised the same points or issues they had with the seires in the older ones).

Personally, I love Zeta, and would rank it as my second favorite Gundam show. I liked the characters, I found most of them interesting and relatable when I first saw the show when I was younger and I still do for the most part today (Even Katz, who seems to be a common object of hate even by other people who claim to enjoy the show). I like the mecha, the battles, the music, nearly everything about the show, although I still think it has it's flaws (Sarah still annoys me for reasons I've never been able to figure out, a few of the mecha are low on my list, and the first Earth arc dragged a bit to me). But those things that first come to my mind as reasons I liked the show are all based purely on my tastes, and I can understand why people may not like any of those elements in Zeta.

Why the standing of Zeta seems to have changed is something I can't really explain. I don't think it was some semi-evil conspiracy by a group of fans as suggested on the previous page (I'm sorry, but I can't read that and not ), but it might just be as simple as people changing over time, or the nature and make up of our member base here. To kind of tie it back to the other thread that started this, I understand why ZZ has the reputation it has, but think it's vastly overblown, perhaps Zeta has something similar going on. That doesn't seem particularly likely to me, but who knows, and I'm out of stuff to say in this post.

[kayone73]

Tomino may have foolishly and pointlessly gone over the edge with much of the darkness he portrayed in Zeta. But unlike the writers of Destiny, who are apparently slaves to the character popularity polls, at least he had the balls to kill off cast members, and make a very FINAL finale. I'll take a sudden and meaningless death over a boring invincible hero. Kamille's fate at the end of Zeta still gives me chills.

Nicely said, I think this reflects the difference in a LOT of shows made back then to shows made now. With no immediate fan feedback mechanisms back in the 80s like internet and other mediums of communication, I think writers and creators could do more of what they intended to do (short of pressure from commercial toy sponsors) without being affects by the opinions of fan-wankery. These days it's tough to ignore the needs and wants of fans who think they can dictate how a show should be done because of their fantasy-land wishful thinking.

[HellCat]

First of all, I'm going to agree that the reputation of Zeta is built on how scarce it was when the English speaking fandom was building up over a decade ago. It was made out to be the ultimate Gundam show and with most of us being hot headed teenagers, we accepted this with little question and told others like it was fact.

Like the thread starter, I've recently completed a rewatch of the show and I really did find it to be a chore. As others have said it's often dark for the sake of being dark, a fact even Tomino acknowledges. In some ways you could argue it's being true to life in terms of character flaws but the result is something which is generally boring and uncomfortable. I don't mind stories with less then perfect characters or which explore that fact to mine drama other shows won't touch, but as the direct sequel to the original series Zeta is kind of like a 'grimdark' fanfic. Like all those Pokemon fanfics where a nuclear bomb went off at the League one year or similar. People love to talk about Gundam being this uber serious war drama but there's a ton of campy or comedy elements to be had in MSG. Zeta kind of tries to remove those but at the same time doesn't. Kamille's Haro is a good example. Fine and dandy for him to find the thing and work on it, it strengthens the obvious connection the story wants to make to Amuro. But why does he do things like take it with him on a non-MS raid to capture a Titans battleship? That feels inconsistent from a show which in the next breath will give an enemy a pointlessly brutal death.

The Titans are another problem. In the early episodes they're established as a threat and you want to see the AEUG topple them. But as soon as Bask vanishes for the majority of the show they become a joke. They're built up to be able to demand any resources and personnel they want yet resort to launching limited schemes against one rebel ship? Even placing them in charge of the Federation forces as a whole doesn't really change anything. It's treated as a game changer but I can't honestly remember anything changing that much. Compare that to something later like OZ winning over the colonies in Wing. That really did shake things up for the cast in a way that was clearly obvious in the story, not just lip service.

There's more I could say but for now I'll wrap up. Zeta is far from the worst thing I've ever watched but it's also far from the tightly plotted legend certain fans and indeed even some official references make it out to be.