Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Ceiling_Squid » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:13 pm

I see where you're coming from on the Mk II. I liked that one a lot, like the original gundam's simplicity but with a more refined design and a few extra bits. I also happen to like the Zeta, but I think the Zeta design was done far more justice when Katoki got his mitts on it and turned out the Zeta Plus. The Hyaku-Shiki style wings and the sleeker design looked way better.
Zeonista wrote: Not being as bloody-minded as I was in earlier years, the movie ending is fine by me. If Tomino-sama decided to offer a happier ending to Camille and Fa, I can accept that with a smile. :)
I see where you're coming from on that as well. My main issue with the new ending, though is that Kamille and Fa DO get a happy ending in the original timeline. Only, that happy ending comes at the end of ZZ Gundam, when Kamille is shown to have recovered, rather than resorting to partially defanging the ending of Zeta to squeeze the happy ending in sooner.

Not that I'm complaining, happy-Tomino can do what he wants with his work. I just think that, taken in context, Kamille's long recovery from Scirocco both helps to highlight Scirocco's power as a villain (striking at Kamille in his dying throes), and also seems to fit in with a recovery from the trauma of Zeta. Almost a parallel to the audience being given a comic-relief breather in ZZ Gundam, Kamille also has to recover from all that he went through. Endure one last struggle to get his happy ending, so to speak.

As reviled as the show is by many people, I think ZZ really does offer closure for Kamille. All the episodes that featured Kamille were actually pretty decent, and I only wish they'd included him more. He was actually fairly mysterious and interesting in his non-speaking, psychically-active state. Made me want to root him on as he gradually appeared to be recovering, going from near-vegetative to actually moving and reacting, to using telepathy to communicate feelings. It made me very happy to see him and Fa running along a beach at the end.

"hotlimit" had it right, I think, Zeta is best appreciated in connection to the original Gundam. In the same light, I think that ZZ is also part of that coherent whole, only not quite as much. The main reason, I think, to watch ZZ after Zeta is to provide closure for Kamille...it doesn't share many other necessary ties with Zeta, unless you really want to see how Haman's gambit in the Earth sphere turns out, or want a comedic breather after Zeta. ZZ turns Kamille's fate-worse-than-death into a bittersweet ending rather than a complete downer, but only after giving him time to rest.

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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Kratos » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:14 am

An even-handed thread about Zeta? Hey, cool.

I don't hate Zeta, but it's pretty far from my favourite Gundam series. I am a huge fan of the original (and actually seem to be one of the few who prefer the series over the movies), but everything that I loved most about Gundam just seems to be gone in Zeta. And on paper, Zeta sounds fantastic. A Universal Century turned on its head? Those who held the reigns of the future betrayed by those who purportedly the good guys? A Gundam series that Tomino has complete creative control over, without the extensive executive meddling responsible for a lot of the camp in the original series? Hell yeah! But alas, I was disappointed.

I can't stand Kamille, for one. He has no tempered reaction to anything, and flies completely off the handle at even minor provocations. Amuro had anti-social tendencies and could be rash, but he was at worst mild-mannered; Kamille is just angry at everything all the time, and can be calm one moment and will just totally flip out the next. It made him impossible for me to relate to as a protagonist. Connected to that is the whole constant physical violence thing. Why, exactly, does everybody smack and punch and beat and kick each other so much? Is this Tomino's way of showing how EXTREEEEME this post-OYW future has become? Char is as interesting as ever, I suppose, but he takes the back seat so often that it's hard to see him as the protagonist in lieu of Kamille. And boy, do I ever want to see somebody as the protagonist in lieu of Kamille.

The other thing is Zeta's complete lack of rounded characters. One of the things that makes MSG so awesome is characters like Ramba Ral: likeable, relatable characters fighting on the side of what the audience knows to be...well, maybe not EVIL, but bad. I mean, Zeon is pretty clearly the antagonist, and yet you have all these people that you have sympathy for, or maybe even like. I think this was actually touched on earlier in the thread, but I just don't see anybody like that in the Titans. Anybody that the audience can even remotely identify with and who has any likeable qualities whatsoever defects. Was this a way of raising the stakes by making the Titans seem even worse than Zeon? Because if so, it's a fairly cheap smoke and mirrors trick. The Titans are BAD, certainly, and maybe even evil, but worse than Zeon? They both commit horrifying atrocities, and neither is probably better or worse than the other. Scirroco, however, is totally a fantastic Final Boss villain, and the series should be commended for that.

Finally, the mobile suit battles are generally pretty boring. I know that sounds petty, but even series like 0083 that turn into cluster****s at the end have nicely animated and nicely choreographed mecha fights. Zeta has a lot of dull "fly around and shoot things", and while DYNAMIC POSING BEAMSPAM maybe isn't the order of the day, interesting mech battles shouldn't be too much to ask for in, you know, a mecha series. I know MSG doesn't exactly have dynamic combat by today's standards either, but this is more of an "icing on the cake" deal.

One of my favourite comparisons for the original series is that between it and the original Star Trek, and I think the metaphor can be extended to Zeta and TNG. Both are series that I'm iffy on, and while the specifics are obviously different, what it comes down to in my mind is this: directors work best under limitations, and when those are removed and their ego is allowed to run wild, the end result can be a bit muddied. Zeta is so aggressively Tomino (and TNG so aggressively Roddenberry) that the humanity is stripped from the experience entirely, leaving a show that lacks the spark, that lacks the magic, of its predecessor. And yet, both shows are generally accepted not only as good but as EXCELLENT - often the BEST - among fans of their respective franchises.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Scorpius7692 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:39 am

And on paper, Zeta sounds fantastic. A Universal Century turned on its head? Those who held the reigns of the future betrayed by those who purportedly the good guys?
This is exactly why I liked Zeta early on. As much as I love Zeon, it was nice to see a different foe, at least at first.
Finally, the mobile suit battles are generally pretty boring. I know that sounds petty, but even series like 0083 that turn into cluster****s at the end have nicely animated and nicely choreographed mecha fights. Zeta has a lot of dull "fly around and shoot things", and while DYNAMIC POSING BEAMSPAM maybe isn't the order of the day, interesting mech battles shouldn't be too much to ask for in, you know, a mecha series. I know MSG doesn't exactly have dynamic combat by today's standards either, but this is more of an "icing on the cake" deal.
Rewatching some of the battles made me realize this. First time through, I thought they were interesting and epic. Now I'm actually disappointed. All they do is fly around and shoot beams at each other. It seemed that there was little to no close combat, and even then it looked boring. Probably the only battle that I remember off the top of my head that I actually still think is cool is Yazan's Hambrabi tearing Reccoa's Methuss apart. Shame he didn't kill her, though.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:04 am

Another reason I love the movies, the new fight scenes are so much more engaging. The fight at the end of the first movie with the Gaplant was way better than any battle in the entire TV series.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Ouroboric » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:10 pm

I can't stand Kamille, for one. He has no tempered reaction to anything, and flies completely off the handle at even minor provocations. Amuro had anti-social tendencies and could be rash, but he was at worst mild-mannered; Kamille is just angry at everything all the time, and can be calm one moment and will just totally flip out the next. It made him impossible for me to relate to as a protagonist. Connected to that is the whole constant physical violence thing. Why, exactly, does everybody smack and punch and beat and kick each other so much? Is this Tomino's way of showing how EXTREEEEME this post-OYW future has become? Char is as interesting as ever, I suppose, but he takes the back seat so often that it's hard to see him as the protagonist in lieu of Kamille. And boy, do I ever want to see somebody as the protagonist in lieu of Kamille.
Being an angry 17 year old at the time of watching, Kamille was the first Gundam pilot that i personally could relate to. Being at that age of being near an adult,everything you thought you knew is slowly revealed to be false(considering where he lived groups like that Aeug would be considered similar to Al Queda and the like by the media) having to look into the underground circuits and make a real effort to get non skewed information, dysfunctional family, the government who's meant to protect you is abusive and full of trigger happy thugs,etc etc etc. Kamille was great because he was not some picture perfect hero, he paints the picture of a quite typical 17 year old boy, as he should, and once he gains power to do what he wishes in the situation, the first thing to do is go after the Titans who restrained him(seemed obvious in my mind at the time haha), i could of only dreamed of that as a 17 year old, and seeing Kamille do it had me literally cheering.Kamille starts off as a young adult caught in chaos, and the war( realizing that there is something beyond you that is much more important), along with Char and Amuro's mentoring helped him grow up into a mature adult ,and get past allot of things. Everyone was getting hit because they needed to be taught to stay in line, the real military can be allot harsher than that. When you have two battle ships on your tail, you don't have time for Katz's antics, it's a matter of life of death. War is horrifying and takes away allot of the socialized moral ideas that we hold dear in society, because when the guns start, they are totally useless anyways.
The other thing is Zeta's complete lack of rounded characters. One of the things that makes MSG so awesome is characters like Ramba Ral: likeable, relatable characters fighting on the side of what the audience knows to be...well, maybe not EVIL, but bad. I mean, Zeon is pretty clearly the antagonist, and yet you have all these people that you have sympathy for, or maybe even like. I think this was actually touched on earlier in the thread, but I just don't see anybody like that in the Titans. Anybody that the audience can even remotely identify with and who has any likeable qualities whatsoever defects. Was this a way of raising the stakes by making the Titans seem even worse than Zeon? Because if so, it's a fairly cheap smoke and mirrors trick. The Titans are BAD, certainly, and maybe even evil, but worse than Zeon? They both commit horrifying atrocities, and neither is probably better or worse than the other. Scirroco, however, is totally a fantastic Final Boss villain, and the series should be commended for that.
Addis Aziba from episode 37 disagree's, he was an honest Titan who even drove off some feddies who grouped Beltorchika, and works with Kamille to try to save the city from falling mobile suits and the like. I think the Titans would seem like a godsend to some orphan who "lost his parents to Zeon" in the one year war, many people would respect that the Titans would do what ever it took to stop a Zeon uprising. I did'nt find many of the Titans downright despicable either,Jerid was a very typical wannabe alpha male,who was willing to improve himself to get to his goals.Scirroco had some warped plan that was probably just a product of the times, and like many other he felt that his aspirations and probably the world would be doomed unless he took action. I don't really view people as "good or evil" anyways, actions are actions, the value after that is subjective anyways, i see more wrong with the Feddies in MSG than Zeon actually. Zeon were "the means to the right end aren't always pretty" and represented a needed change from the globalized earth's rule, and always had a certain level of dignity to them, and could all see beyond themselves for a better cause. The bumbling perverted soldiers,lack of respect for the White Base crew,,etc all characterized the earth as incompetent,self important, overly bureaucratized, overly globalized, and short sided to me.It was'nt till Zeta that they really showed their true colors.(ill end my rant on this here though haha)
Finally, the mobile suit battles are generally pretty boring
I'll have to go re watch that to decide myself, i watched it right after Seed( and 2-3 times again throughout the years) and i remember the battles being refreshing and gritty,admittedly not as captivating as what modern technology can give us aesthetically, but i thought they were all choreographed well and never broke the vibe of the show with theatrics.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:37 am

Ouroboric wrote:i see more wrong with the Feddies in MSG than Zeon actually. Zeon were "the means to the right end aren't always pretty" and represented a needed change from the globalized earth's rule, and always had a certain level of dignity to them, and could all see beyond themselves for a better cause.
Yeah... but the Federation STILL doesn't bear the brunt of responsibility for killing billions of non-combatants in less than a month.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Kratos » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:12 am

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
Ouroboric wrote:i see more wrong with the Feddies in MSG than Zeon actually. Zeon were "the means to the right end aren't always pretty" and represented a needed change from the globalized earth's rule, and always had a certain level of dignity to them, and could all see beyond themselves for a better cause.
Yeah... but the Federation STILL doesn't bear the brunt of responsibility for killing billions of non-combatants in less than a month.
Yes. This exactly.

It doesn't matter how much "dignity" Zeon has. They're still the villainous faction of the show, and are very clearly presented as such. In fact, the whole point of Zeon's leaders is that they couldn't see beyond themselves for a better cause; the "cause" of the Zabi family is nebulous at best, and then billions of the people they were purportedly fighting for are murdered in the name of it. That wasn't a necessary means to an end, and in fact accomplished precisely nothing (until Loum, which wasn't a planned slaughter). What's more, if the point (story-telling wise) was "the means to an end aren't always pretty", why weren't Zeon's means successful? Either MSG is very poorly written, or their purpose is something else entirely.

And seriously, what would you rather have: bureaucratic incompetence, or a murderous military dictatorship? Like Zeon all you want, just realize that they are the villains of MSG, and are, as a faction, very obviously meant to be considered the greater of two evils.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Andrew86 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:25 pm

I am 25 and like so many people it seems my first experience was with G Wing in middle school.

I think zeta gundam's mood and atmosphere are second to none. Sure the characters decisions are not always rationale (the same can be said of MSG), but the conviction and emotions they convey seem very real. The battles are honestly awesome from what I can remember though that was nearly 10 years ago.

I can't seem to really convey my thoughts clearly, as most of my memories are more feelings and sentiments. That being said I felt digging into the show as I would digging into a great record such as Pet Sounds. It may lack the greater complexities and seem dated in some regards, but it achieves depth and grandeur that not many other forms of media have.

I think it is only fair to say I was one of those kids who heard these stories of this dark, space masterpiece from the old heads on the original Gundam Plus. That being said I was not a shade disappointed when the final episode finished.

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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Ceiling_Squid » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:26 pm

Kratos wrote: And seriously, what would you rather have: bureaucratic incompetence, or a murderous military dictatorship? Like Zeon all you want, just realize that they are the villains of MSG, and are, as a faction, very obviously meant to be considered the greater of two evils.
A thousand times this. Unfortunately, I think we're veering into territory best given over to another topic, but to throw in my two cents, the average fan REALLY needs to look at a proper timeline of the One Year War and see just what the Zeon "means to an end" actually achieved: the death of billions of fellow spacenoids, the people they were supposed to be fighting for.

Beyond economic sanctions applied by the Federation or some other such issues, Zeon was already quite independent for some years before the OYW, thaks to Zeon Zum Daikun. The Zabis killed him, co-opted his name and ideology, and were making an obvious powergrab, with genocidal consequences. Char talks about it constantly in Zeta Gundam, echoing how the Zabi family was this great force for evil, and that the Titans were treading in their footsteps.

Honestly, I'll take the incompetent Feddies over the Principality any day of the week. The Federation did the impossible, which was unify all the national entities in an age of peace that lasted for decades, well up until the OYW broke out. The Titans of Zeta were the Federation's darkest hour, but that hour did not come until AFTER the OYW. One will be hard-pressed to convince me that the Zeeks were not the great evil of the OYW. A large part of their fan-appeal is aesthetic, in the same way that the Nazis dressed stylishly and looked badass, and spoke a badass-sounding language. Same goes for the Titans, but the Titans never got any real positive portrayal in animated media, so their appeal is largely based on the cool uniforms.

If someone's going to realistically champion Zeon, they'd better be a hardline Daikunist, because the farther they get from the embarassaing stain that was the Zabis, the more sympathetic the Zeeks get.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Red Comet90 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:28 pm

I'm glad I'm not the only one to ask the question as to why Zeta Gundam is held in such high regard and to be honest I blamed it on the fact that I played Gundam vs. Zeta Gundam before I could get my hands on the DVD box set of the show. Once I did I already knew what would happen since I played through all of the modes in the game.

That being said, the first time I watched the show I thought it was ok. Neither amazing nor terrible, but definitely worth a re watch. My second re-watch I was a bit older and I started to see why it was that Kamille whined so much. Even though he complained and he was bitter he sometimes had a point. He brought up issues because he had a reason too. I started to actually like Kamille because he was a real person. He had his good and bad. Because of the fact that he had bad it often tends to stand out more than his good, but Kamille alone wasn't the reason why I started to see Zeta in a better light.

I saw the interactions going on between the AEUG, Titans, and Axis as interesting since they have this constant back and forth going which finally culminates in that final battle. I agree with what others have said about the battles. They aren't so great, but they aren't a chore to watch if you space out the episodes over time and don't just cram them all into one day.

Overall Zeta is a good show, but it doesn't have the "god-like" status that people give it. It does lay the basis for many of the gundam shows to come out afterwards.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:14 pm

Ceiling_Squid wrote:A large part of their fan-appeal is aesthetic, in the same way that the Nazis dressed stylishly and looked badass, and spoke a badass-sounding language.
Nazi ZOINKS Colonel: Und zis is how ve say goodbye in Germany. (Punches Indiana Jones in the face.)

Sorry, just had to throw that out there! :D
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Ouroboric » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:19 pm

Kratos wrote:
Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
Ouroboric wrote:i see more wrong with the Feddies in MSG than Zeon actually. Zeon were "the means to the right end aren't always pretty" and represented a needed change from the globalized earth's rule, and always had a certain level of dignity to them, and could all see beyond themselves for a better cause.
Yeah... but the Federation STILL doesn't bear the brunt of responsibility for killing billions of non-combatants in less than a month.
Yes. This exactly.

It doesn't matter how much "dignity" Zeon has. They're still the villainous faction of the show, and are very clearly presented as such. In fact, the whole point of Zeon's leaders is that they couldn't see beyond themselves for a better cause; the "cause" of the Zabi family is nebulous at best, and then billions of the people they were purportedly fighting for are murdered in the name of it. That wasn't a necessary means to an end, and in fact accomplished precisely nothing (until Loum, which wasn't a planned slaughter). What's more, if the point (story-telling wise) was "the means to an end aren't always pretty", why weren't Zeon's means successful? Either MSG is very poorly written, or their purpose is something else entirely.

And seriously, what would you rather have: bureaucratic incompetence, or a murderous military dictatorship? Like Zeon all you want, just realize that they are the villains of MSG, and are, as a faction, very obviously meant to be considered the greater of two evils.
Oh i definitely agree, you have to understand i'm looking at more of the Zeon people than the Zabi family, and the goals of the Deikun family, the "true Zeon" so to say, and the average Zeon soldier i found to be much more likeable, i prefer the passion and fire they have for the cause(and yes i admire that aspects in many other movements like the Nazi's without agreeing with their methods, or how things ended up turning out, because the initial and honorable aim of these movements always get warped by the end), it's fair to assume that most of the soldiers were just people who were oppressed, saw that the globalized earth system doesn't work, and wanted a better life for them and there loved ones.I prefer that over some bumbling self important earth soldier who likes to get drunk and is happy living under an incompetent system.I always felt that Zeon represented a needed change, but never quite make it, and therefore the world of UC is not so much different from 79 to 153, as the Federation keeps in control,the earth keeps getting more polluted and the people more dissident.I think Zeon's constant failures represents the fact that people still are stuck in the same outdated system, and as long as a globalized force like the EF exists, people will be treated poorly and fall through the cracks of the system.Everything you guys said about the Zeon is true as well i won't deny, but it's not so unreasonable that someone would prefer them over the EF.


(back on topic, sorry guys)
I think zeta gundam's mood and atmosphere are second to none. Sure the characters decisions are not always rationale (the same can be said of MSG), but the conviction and emotions they convey seem very real.
That is what i always fealt about the characters, the way everyone was affected by the events of the One Year War and the Titans conflict was amazing. I also think that the way the Newtype theme is developed in Zeta is excellent even if it is'nt a huge focus, there is as you said allot of depth to the characters and the story to keep things interesting, even if it's not a barrage of events. I find allot of new Anime substitutes an actual good plot for keeping things ridiculously fast paced so you can't let anything sink in and really develope,I find with most of the Tomino shows, things are just as good when the story almost entirely stops ,there is always something to be developed.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by ShadowCell » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:51 pm

passion and fire for a cause is only as admirable as the cause for which you have passion and fire

in the Nazis, "passion and fire for the cause" manifested itself in the industrialized murder of twelve million people. in Zeon, "passion and fire for the cause" manifested itself in the systematic annihilation of the very same people for which Zeon claimed to be fighting. how the hell is any of that admirable?

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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:28 pm

Zeta is an logical extension of the storyline and concepts laid out in the first gundam series. Gundam had already depicted that while both sides had there good and evil solders. zeta opens with an much changed earth federation where the damage from the war has allowed for the creation of an paramiltary faction to take over and use the fear of "zeon rising again" as a way to keep the public from caring how they do it. it takes char speaking to the counsel to point out that the people who are stopping the "evil zeon terrorists" from strikeing are willing to use the same methods that made zeon so feared.

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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Ouroboric » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:53 pm

ShadowCell wrote:passion and fire for a cause is only as admirable as the cause for which you have passion and fire

in the Nazis, "passion and fire for the cause" manifested itself in the industrialized murder of twelve million people. in Zeon, "passion and fire for the cause" manifested itself in the systematic annihilation of the very same people for which Zeon claimed to be fighting. how the hell is any of that admirable?
Because the end results aren't set in stone, i can only speculate about the deeper aspects of Zeon philosophy and ideology(beyond the newtype idea, which really reminds me on Nietzsche's "Ubermench", which played a big role in Nazi philosophy and attitudes as well) but National Socialism initially was about saving the German people from the dysfunctionality of capitalism, destroying classism, finding unity, and building a path to work together for a better future(to dumb it down because i don't feel like writing pages out). What it evolved into was terrible, but at least an effort was made. I view it the same in both cases.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by ShadowCell » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:13 pm

so now you're backtracking from "Nazis" to "National Socialists," as though there is any significant difference. okay then. it is worth pointing out that the National Socialists, Nazis, or whatever else you wish to call them made absolutely no attempt to save the German people from the dysfunctionality of capitalism, destroy classism, find unity (really didn't try to do that), and build a path to work together for a better future (reeeeeeeeeeeally didn't try to do that), so you're just plain historically wrong and we're back to "admiring the Nazis for their dedication to their cause."

as for the Nazis' ersatz Gundam version, what they give you on the screen is an army that more or less unquestioningly and unthinkingly follows a guy whose specific goal in the war is to wipe out most of humanity so that he himself can rule over the rest as a dictator. so we have the same problem. you're saying you admire people doing evil things because they really believed in what they were doing, even though, you know, their belief in what they were doing is why they did the evil things you say you don't condone. well, if you say that, don't be too surprised if people conclude that you're cheering on stuff like genocide, whether it's in your giant robot cartoons or in the real world.

you can speculate on whatever else is going on in various Gundam factions' ideologies, but you can't argue with what they show you on the screen, and what they show you on the screen isn't very glowing.

and that's the last i'll say on that.

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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Ouroboric » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:34 pm

They are interchangeable terms, not sure were you got any other idea. That's what it was supposed to be if you read into it, Hitler was elected many years before the war and made many positive contributions to German society, like helping them get out of their economic crisis. Not everyone unthinkingly and unquestionably was following the Zabi regime, and those who were are no worse then any other military that fought in a large scale war. Maybe I'm forgetting something but at what point was the goal of "wipe out most of humanity so that he himself can rule over the rest as a dictator" proclaimed?(Maybe he did,i don't recall that part) Evil and good are entirely subject to circumstance and are really baseless concepts at the end of the day. How far your self interest goes (whether you only care about your own tribe or all people) does not make you "evil", or "good" ,that's just a product of people projecting their own beliefs and values onto the situation, you can argue that it's unethical, but there is nothing set in stone saying that we have to be ethical.I agree that yes they are portrayed as villains,as a whole i can identify with them more than the EF.I'll stick to Zeta talk now though, sorry for sidetracking the conversation.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Kratos » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:54 am

Ouroboric wrote:Maybe I'm forgetting something but at what point was the goal of wipe out most of humanity so that he himself can rule over the rest as a dictator" "proclaimed?(Maybe he did,i don't recall that part)
The entire point of the "sorrow into hatred" speech of Gihren's was to encourage the idea that Spacenoids (and specifically Zeon's inhabitants) were somehow a "superior race" to...well, everybody else. That somehow, they were "chosen", and thereby more fit to lead. As for the wiping out most of humanity...the early slaughter in the war was planned, so yeah, "wipe out most of humanity so that he himself can rule over the rest as a dictator" sums up Gihren's goals well. He's the one in charge, and so these goals are thereby the goals of Zabi-led Zeon.

And yes. the Nazis did fantastic things for Germany. They also murdered 11 million people in a senseless genocide that did nothing whatsoever to contribute to those fantastic things. Sound familiar? It should, because "mass murder as a means to an end that doesn't require said wholesale slaughter" sums up Zeon's actions precisely. Nobody but the largest of nutcases would seriously state that the world isn't better off without Germany's Nationalist Socialist regime, so what exactly gives Zeon a pass? At what point can you seriously start saying to yourself "sure, they committed one of the largest acts of mass murder in history, but they have good qualities too"? A line needs to be drawn somewhere.

Which is why (in an attempt to keep this on topic, here) I find it laughable that people somehow think the Titans are "worse" than Zeon. Both are regimes based around racism (noidism?), militarism, and mass murder. There's no "better" or "worse" when discussing things like this, as far as I'm concerned.
Last edited by Kratos on Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Cardi Doorl » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:04 am

Guys, we already have a current thread that's derailed into a discussion of the merits and crimes of Zeon. Let's not have two simultaneous retreads of this ancient topic, especially since this thread was going so well with the intended subject matter.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Post by Zeonista » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:38 pm

Andre86: Glad you liked it so much! Your recollection said a lot without using so many words, which I admire since it is not my own example. :D

Ouroboric: You really defined Camille well, and I suppose you were at the right age to appreciate it. I wasn't much older myself when I first watched Zeta episodes, and I was behind Camille 100% of the way. He had a hard row to hoe as a Gundam hero, and the story didn't give him any slack, unlike a lot of anime heroes in and out of Gundam during the past decade. turn into a Gundam herp with a more grounded and serious level, but still willing to back AEUG all the way. I kept hoping Katz would benefit from his example, but some things are simply not to be. :)

Kratos: Tomino-sama has a history of doing things other than expected when crafting a new anime. So in retrospect the idea of flipping the original story situation around to reflect Federation heroes confronting a Federation faction that has gone rogue in trying to proven a repeat of MSG, is definitely the sort of thing he would do to make sure he had the audience's attention. I didn't know that when I first watched the series, what did I know, it was Gundam! Looking back now I can see him assuring his staff that this new story would be a bold and daring hit! And it was, so he won the creative gamble that time.

The many inconclusive and therefore "boring" MS battles of the show are the result of the new technology available in 0087 that 0079-83 didn't have. MS are faster and more maneuverable, so the side at a disadvantage can better keep their opponents at a comfortable distance. Beam weapons are more prevalent and more powerful, so the pilots rely on them to win, instead of closing to grips to make the sure-fire rifle/saber kill. Plus (in a non-tech vein), AEUG wants to win, but not at the cost of a high casualty rate on both sides, so they are mostly reluctant to go for the kill. It's not until the grand finale, when AEUG and Titans sense the momentum changing, that kill shots and blows at any cost in the MSG vein become prevalent, with the inevitable results.
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One thing I have noticed in the reactions is a lack of mention of female characters. To my mind, at least, Zeta Gundam really balanced the gender scale in Gundam stories, even more so than MSG. and pointed the way to the more balanced casts seen in later shows. The female characters weren't just bridge bunnies or loyal girlfriends, they were MS pilots with some skill, or at least aspiring to it. They got to lead missions and plan operations, too. (Contrast this to real life and MSG military and paramilitary forces, which are predominantly male, and rarely if ever have women in combatant roles.) At the time, it was something new to me, even in anime, and turned out to be good, even if it didn't end well for many of them. Have any viewers particularly enjoyed having the ladies take a prominent role in the story, or has this become mainstreamed into "usual fare" like a lot of other Zeta features?
Last edited by Zeonista on Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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