Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Jerid was one of the more interesting Titans characters IMO because as much of a jerkoff as he is, he's not a complete monster like Bask or Jamitov. Even more interestingly, while a lot of the time he's such a total jerkoff he's almost unbearable, there were IIRC a few episodes where he was a lot less of a jerk, and almost someone you could sympathize with - I'm thinking in particular of the episodes with Lila. (Who BTW was pretty cool in her own right, for a tertiary antagonist).
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Dark Duel wrote:Jerid was one of the more interesting Titans characters IMO because as much of a jerkoff as he is, he's not a complete monster like Bask or Jamitov. Even more interestingly, while a lot of the time he's such a total jerkoff he's almost unbearable, there were IIRC a few episodes where he was a lot less of a jerk, and almost someone you could sympathize with - I'm thinking in particular of the episodes with Lila. (Who BTW was pretty cool in her own right, for a tertiary antagonist).
I agree. In fact, Jerid is/was one of my favorite gundam characters because he served as an effective foil for Kamille: both had parallel paths of character development and maturity, starting from 'awful' and progressing to maturity... until Jerid lost all his friends/loved ones and fell into revenge, while Kamille never quite lost everyone and so didn't. What started as a petty ego-contest turned into a genuine rivalry as they killed each others friends and significant others, and it remains one of my favorite rivalries of Gundam... all the more that it became one-sided at the end, because Kamille still had others to live for and Jerid lost everyone and so became obsessed.

Watching the two of them mature in similar ways at mostly the same rate (and with similar beatdowns to the ego) was refreshing, as was the fact that Jerid wasn't simply out-piloted by Kamille time and time again like many Gundam 'rivals': as pilots they were generally equal, and both traded times when the only reason they didn't win was because someone else intervened to save the loser.

The pinnacle of that rivalry/co-development was undoubtedly the second space arc. Lila and Moaur were undoubtably excellent influences on Jerid's development, and that point where Jerid doesn't shoot Kamille when he has the opportunity to do, and tries to take him prisoner, always stands out to me. I always liked the implication that Jerid was a guy who could have gone on to do great things (not necessarily nice things, but not pure-evil either) if he had continued his growth... and that it was the death of all those around him that drove him to ruin.

Yeah, Jerid was always a fascist, but until the end I felt he was a good fascist. Selfish? Sure. Ambitious? Certainly. Antagonistic? Unquestionably.

Enjoyable? To me, yes. I certainly enjoyed the (non-canonical) what-if elements of Gundam vs. Zeta Gundam game, and the alternate time lines.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

I liked how he got taken under Master Asia's wing in Dynasty Warriors Gundam :D
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Zeonista wrote:Then I & some like-minded friends burned through the entire series in one long summer week, with the episode synopses courtesy of a certain Mark Simmons as a guideline. At the end of several days I was emotionally traumatized, stunned, and in Gundam love forever.
Wait, that's it! So you guys watched it raw with only Mark's synopsis as reference? That could explain why all of you loved it so much. Is it still possible to obtain a copy of this anywhere?
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Well, this has certainly been an interesting topic. I, for one, have seen a lot of Zeta worshiping on various forums over the years and after reading Destiny_Gundam's first post, was expecting more of the same. It was refreshing to see a mostly candid and reasonable discussion of the series and surprising to see the majority come out at least somewhat critical of the series. Even as recently as last summer, I went to the Gundam panel at Otakon where the panel lead held a [very] informal poll and determined the original and Zeta are by far the most popular among panel attendees. While Thrawnma's explanation for all this is laughably overdramatic, I think he's basically right. I guess enough of the long-time Gundam fans have stopped frequenting forums such as these and allowed discussions like this to take place without being drowned out in a chorus of zealots who yell at anyone who criticizes Zeta and tell them to go back to watching SEED Destiny. I for one, rather like Zeta, but I've always had to :roll: at most of the things people said about it.


Anyways, I also liked Jerid as a rival, and kind of wish he didn't get shut out of the shows main focus as much as he did in the latter part of the series. At the very least I think it would have been nice to have a bit more epic of a fight instead of appearing out of nowhere and promptly getting wasted. At the same time, it says something interesting about the development of the show to see the devolution of the Kamille and Jerid's rivalry from a main focus to a mere sideshow beside the grand astropolitics being played out between three powerful factions.


Overall, I agree that the show was strongest in the latter half after the introduction of Neo Zeon. I don't think Tomino's willingness to kill off characters has anything to with either its strengths or weaknesses. In Zeta the show worked for me because the politics made the story interesting, and the characters were respectable enough even if many of them did nonsensical things and I failed to empathize with them. This is in contrast to the somewhat similar Victory, where all the factions were laughable and uninteresting and characters were getting killed off at such a fanatic pace, there was nothing to keep me even slightly vested in what was going on.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Destiny_Gundam wrote:I liked how he got taken under Master Asia's wing in Dynasty Warriors Gundam :D
But of course. Everyone comes off better after training under Master Asia. :D
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Jerid does get a terrible rap, considering how many times he legitimately had a killshot on Kamille but gets interrupted by another character sailing in to save the day. Hell, he totally demolished Kamille the one time he used a Galbaldy.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Dean_the_Young wrote:
Destiny_Gundam wrote:I liked how he got taken under Master Asia's wing in Dynasty Warriors Gundam :D
But of course. Everyone comes off better after training under Master Asia. :D
Heh, true, but I meant more how he actually bowed his head and asked for help.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Probably one of the reasons why Zeta is a great show and is also one of my favorite reasons is because of Paptimus Scirocco. He is probably the best magnificant bastard yet in gundam followed closely by Ribbons but he manipulates everyone and especially has a lot of sway over women especially. He is also more likeable in my book than Haman Karn because he didn't commit any mass killing genocides or dropped any colonies, in fact, IIRC, he sent Sarah to warn the AEUG to stop a colony drop being orchestrated by Jamitov's and Bask's faction of the Titans.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Destiny_Gundam wrote:
Dean_the_Young wrote:
Destiny_Gundam wrote:I liked how he got taken under Master Asia's wing in Dynasty Warriors Gundam :D
But of course. Everyone comes off better after training under Master Asia. :D
Heh, true, but I meant more how he actually bowed his head and asked for help.
That was another great thing about Jerid, often ignored: Jerid's arrogant and ambitious as anyone else, but he is honest enough to swallow his pride and seek self-improvement... and help from others. I'm not sure I'd call it humility, but he certainly isn't ruled by ego: the first time I ever really took a shine to him was when, after being beaten up by Lila, he humbles himself and asks for her help to improve himself.

Does he want to improve himself to help others? Hardly: it's self-interest to the max. Does he become a better person in pursuing that self-interest? Yes. I suppose competing sins almost lead to virtue.

Jerid is one of those antagonists who had his own mentor/development arc(s). I can't think of too many other rival-characters who had the same.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

I found the best Jerid episodes to be his brief time under Scirocco. It seems that without Kamille around he mellowed out and started to show true potential in terms of both being a pilot and a commander. Too bad this was short lived and he's soon back to being a jerk who's obsessed with killing Kamille. Jerid is at his best when you can sympathise with him as a counterpart to Kamille, not just a rival for him.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Phoenix012 wrote: I guess enough of the long-time Gundam fans have stopped frequenting forums such as these and allowed discussions like this to take place without being drowned out in a chorus of zealots who yell at anyone who criticizes Zeta and tell them to go back to watching SEED Destiny.
Depends a lot on what you mean by "long-time" fans. There are probably a dozen people at this forum who I've known for more than a decade. And essentially none of them have posted in this topic. The fact that nearly everyone who answered the question listed Wing as their first series should highlight that, in fact, only a small sub-set of the people at this forum have responded. In fact, only 33 people have posted here, and not all of them have actually given an opinion on Zeta. So I'd be very wary about drawing conclusions based on the fact that most of the people who've posted here have been at least somewhat critical of the series.
Phoenix012 wrote:Anyways, I also liked Jerid as a rival, and kind of wish he didn't get shut out of the shows main focus as much as he did in the latter part of the series. At the very least I think it would have been nice to have a bit more epic of a fight instead of appearing out of nowhere and promptly getting wasted. At the same time, it says something interesting about the development of the show to see the devolution of the Kamille and Jerid's rivalry from a main focus to a mere sideshow beside the grand astropolitics being played out between three powerful factions.
Jerid is honestly about as convincing a rival as Char was in MSG, and in fact is usually a more credible threat to Kamille than Char ever was to Amuro. And in both cases, the rivalry was much more on the part of the loser than of the victor, which serves to showcase their narrow-mindedness over the protagonists, who gradually lost interest in any sort of rivalry because there were bigger issues to worry about.
Phoenix012 wrote:I don't think Tomino's willingness to kill off characters has anything to with either its strengths or weaknesses.
Unlike Takahashi's Dougram, Tomino usually shoehorns all his deaths into the last 10% of the series, and when he doesn't (as in Victory) he instead telegraphs character deaths with all the usual tropes, particularly with the Shrike Team, which rather lessened the impact of those deaths, at least for me. Thus, I suspect Tomino's slaughter of characters has more to do with preventing most of them from being used in a sequel.
Phoenix012 wrote:In Zeta the show worked for me because the politics made the story interesting, and the characters were respectable enough even if many of them did nonsensical things and I failed to empathize with them. This is in contrast to the somewhat similar Victory, where all the factions were laughable and uninteresting and characters were getting killed off at such a fanatic pace, there was nothing to keep me even slightly vested in what was going on.

Certainly, characters were killed more frequently in Victory, but just as often the episode where someone died was the only one where they were given any development. This was most notable with the Shrike Team, as it was often clear to the genre-savvy within 90 seconds which of the girls was going to be killed in an episode. But I found the factions no more convincing in Zeta than I did in Victory. YMMV.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Black Knight wrote:
Phoenix012 wrote: I guess enough of the long-time Gundam fans have stopped frequenting forums such as these and allowed discussions like this to take place without being drowned out in a chorus of zealots who yell at anyone who criticizes Zeta and tell them to go back to watching SEED Destiny.
Depends a lot on what you mean by "long-time" fans. There are probably a dozen people at this forum who I've known for more than a decade. And essentially none of them have posted in this topic. The fact that nearly everyone who answered the question listed Wing as their first series should highlight that, in fact, only a small sub-set of the people at this forum have responded. In fact, only 33 people have posted here, and not all of them have actually given an opinion on Zeta. So I'd be very wary about drawing conclusions based on the fact that most of the people who've posted here have been at least somewhat critical of the series.
Fair enough. I still think that the manner in which this thread unfolded would not have happened a few years ago.
Black Knight wrote:
Phoenix012 wrote:I don't think Tomino's willingness to kill off characters has anything to with either its strengths or weaknesses.
Unlike Takahashi's Dougram, Tomino usually shoehorns all his deaths into the last 10% of the series, and when he doesn't (as in Victory) he instead telegraphs character deaths with all the usual tropes, particularly with the Shrike Team, which rather lessened the impact of those deaths, at least for me. Thus, I suspect Tomino's slaughter of characters has more to do with preventing most of them from being used in a sequel.

My point was I don't consider the amount of character deaths a pro or a con by itself, but rather how they are used to further the story. Some people hold up Zeta and/or Victory because of their large number of main character deaths, but as you point out yourself, characters were killed off for reasons that little at all to do with the story, thereby making them basically irrelevant.
Black Knight wrote:
Phoenix012 wrote:In Zeta the show worked for me because the politics made the story interesting, and the characters were respectable enough even if many of them did nonsensical things and I failed to empathize with them. This is in contrast to the somewhat similar Victory, where all the factions were laughable and uninteresting and characters were getting killed off at such a fanatic pace, there was nothing to keep me even slightly vested in what was going on.

Certainly, characters were killed more frequently in Victory, but just as often the episode where someone died was the only one where they were given any development. This was most notable with the Shrike Team, as it was often clear to the genre-savvy within 90 seconds which of the girls was going to be killed in an episode. But I found the factions no more convincing in Zeta than I did in Victory. YMMV.
I'm not exactly sure what point you were trying to address with your first sentence there. The repeated pattern of briefly developing a character before killing them off is why I lost all interest in the show. Neither did I care about the factions because none of them had discernible goals for what they were trying to accomplish at any point in the show. While the factions from Zeta may not have been any more "convincing," they did have historical context that further developed the setting and therefore gave the audience a better idea of who the factions were and what their goals were. It's what kept the show interesting for me, personally.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Phoenix012 wrote:Fair enough. I still think that the manner in which this thread unfolded would not have happened a few years ago.
That would depend on where the subject came up as much as when. The reactions you'd get to just the OP alone would vary greatly from one board to another, from one time to another. Some would be drastically different, but some would be basically the same as this thread here.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Seraphic wrote:
Zeonista wrote:Then I & some like-minded friends burned through the entire series in one long summer week, with the episode synopses courtesy of a certain Mark Simmons as a guideline. At the end of several days I was emotionally traumatized, stunned, and in Gundam love forever.
Wait, that's it! So you guys watched it raw with only Mark's synopsis as reference? That could explain why all of you loved it so much. Is it still possible to obtain a copy of this anywhere?
Well, I can't speak for all the veteran UC-cum-Zeta fans on my own experience, but it might be the same for some of them. I guess no one really told me Zeta Gundam was the best, I discovered it for myself. Maybe that experience is what some of the posting fans here have missed? The old Zeta synopsis articles appeared in the first series run of historical fanzine Animag, issues 1-2, 4, and 10...maybe. It's been a while since I dug 'em out of storage. Good luck finding any of those these days! I will not post them here; Mark disavowed all those versions, since he has vastly increased his mastery of Gundam lore. The basic bits of the story were there though, and even knowing what a scene was supposed to cover really helped my rudimentary knowledge of Japanese along in understanding what was happening. The abundant battles didn't need much translation of course, and the excellent cast gave the characters a lot of expression.

yazi88: Yes, Paptimus Scirocco is a villain among villains in anime. I's not often that one can watch a single character continuously upset everything just because it kept his hand in and weakened everybody else. (I wouldn't buy any claims to niceness in his leaking a Titans scheme, though. His motive wouldn't be chivalry, but opportunity.) Well 00 tried recently, with some success, although these days I am skeptical of getting the same result in a show. The productions are more closely tied to fan likes, and what the fans don't like is an unabashed, semi-untouchable villain screwing the heroes and his so-called allies at every turn and smirking all the way to the bank until the final showdown.

Phoenix012: I suppose some of us have gotten beyond knee-jerk reactions concerning our favorites over the years. Or maybe we've owned up to the bad parts while continuing to uphold the good parts that made us fans in the first place. That aside, I am still living the sign of Zeta, and no following series has ever really equaled it. Although I am always open to Sunrise's latest attempt to make lightning strike twice. :D

Black Knight: It could be said that some of the older fans who rank Zeta #1 see no real reason to defend their favorite. They like it, and that's about it. I responded to Destiny_Gundam since my high ranking of Zeta pre-dates the Internet, and is based on liking the show for its own sake, as opposed to some relatively anonymous poster telling me what I ought to watch and like, or not to, as the case may be.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

I look at zeta as an "Bizarro" reflection of the original series. Kamille is in the same situation as Amuro Ray during episode one but the first thing he does once the gets the gundam upright is to find the MP who arrested him and fire the vulcans at him. He was an anti hero gundam lead he was galvanized in to the AEUG cause when the titans kill his mother off making him more char like. for those who go in after the first series everything is warped. The reason the Hi-Zack existed was due to the fact the federation was cash strapped and requested an ms that would be cheap and as relaible as the zaku series and what they got was an modernized zaku using GM style parts. The titans stuck to zeonic mono eye destines because it was cheaper than gm sensors. even the nemo was more or less ordered to be an more advanced gm clone and they got an zeonic ms wereing the shell of the gm.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

I read this thread last night, attempted to post, realized I was completely scatterbrained, and took my leave. :mrgreen: Lets see if I can piece together a cogent post.

I've seen about half or 3/4's of the TV version and the movies. Like MSG I found the Movies more watchable, hence, getting through them and not the TV shows. Anyways-

I love the setting, the absolute ridiculous chaos. The Titans backstabbing, the Federal governments complacency/idiocy, Haman's power-play, Scirocco's power-play, and the idea of the AEUG/Karaba organizations. (Though, I wouldn't name myself the Anti-Earth Union Group if I wanted the EF to recognize my agenda...) I really didn't like the excessive number of monster of the week mechanical designs, transformable MS, the beam rifle fights, and a great deal of the characters. Some of them had to be who they were to progress the show, some didn't.

I would have liked to see more humanity from the Titans, it's impossible for everyone in an organization to be a completely evil piece of human garbage and yet, most of them on-screen were. I also tired of seeing AEUG MS get blasted away as the main characters plodded on- where were they getting the pilots and machines to replace the dead Nemo's? I'd also like to have seen more of the EFF before they were swallowed whole by the Titans.

I really didn't like Jerid. To me he was more a placeholder rival to Kamille until Scirocco came on the scene.

Certainly, the whole emotionally unstable teenager thing grated on me through the original and Zeta, but I understand why it was important that Amuro and then Kamille were what they were. The tragic tone underscores how vicious war is, particularly in the Universal Century, I think that's where it shines for me. I like Kamille's happy ending in the Movies better than what I understand he faces in the TV version.

This isn't Zeta related per-say, but I really want to know how "Trying to fix the system and bring his fathers dream to fruition" Char in Zeta turned into "Went batcrap insane, decided to start a war pretty much just to fight Amuro over a girl who died 15 years ago" Char... Perhaps I should re-watch CCA, I saw it on Adult Swim so its been awhile.

I guess that was Semi-Cogent, at least.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

I've heard it said that Char started the second Neo-Zeon mostly because he really DID want to just get back at Amuro after all those years.
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

Fall_Ryan wrote:I read this thread last night, attempted to post, realized I was completely scatterbrained, and took my leave. :mrgreen:
What an admirable form of restraint. It will definitely make great posts for you. :)
I've seen about half or 3/4's of the TV version and the movies.
The Zeta movies are like the MSG movies in that they keep all the big important bits, and let the background detail and tit-for-tat missions go by. The TV series is still worth watching in full for the story in full, although in truth Zeta used more of its screen time for story and less of it for some of the episodic padding in Original Gundam. No homesick Titans biker scouts here, nope...
I love the setting, the absolute ridiculous chaos. The Titans backstabbing, the Federal governments complacency/idiocy, Haman's power-play, Scirocco's power-play, and the idea of the AEUG/Karaba organizations. (Though, I wouldn't name myself the Anti-Earth Union Group if I wanted the EF to recognize my agenda...)
After the One Year War the EUG tried to put a lid on all the problems and pretend that everything was A-OK. As the story goes on to show, the various lids all pop off with a vengeance! The AEUG name is intended to show they oppose the policy decisions that led to the uprising, as well as their opposition to the Titans. After all, the Titans are posing as the champions of the EUG, and who wants to be confused with them? :) Think of the AEUG/Karaba as the political version of the Verizon dude calling to Dakar. " Can you hear me now?!?"
I would have liked to see more humanity from the Titans, it's impossible for everyone in an organization to be a completely evil piece of human garbage and yet, most of them on-screen were.
In that case, seek out Advance of Zeta: TItans Test Team, and you will find what you seek. I also recommend Bazookafied's forum & website which has all sort of info on it. ;)
However, your wish will be forever disappointed, not because of a paucity of ostensibly decent people in the Titans, but because none of the decent people were in the command structure, or involved in composing its charter. Emma Sheen's dilemma at the beginning of the story reflects the inevitable conflict of interests that would face any Titan with ethical standards. The Titans were intended to be a force for suppression and intimidation, run by people who thought said intimidation and suppression made for good results. The Titans didn't have to be absolute bastards on a power trip, but that's the role they decided to play.
I also tired of seeing AEUG MS get blasted away as the main characters plodded on- where were they getting the pilots and machines to replace the dead Nemo's? I'd also like to have seen more of the EFF before they were swallowed whole by the Titans.
Yazan: The AEUG is made up of women and kids!
Camille: It's the Titans who made it so!
This exchange from episode 26 sort of explains why AEUG doesn't run out of willing members. Acting like evil jerks makes fight-to-the-end enemies out of otherwise peaceful people. The Titans treat the industrial corporations on Luna without respect due the economic linchpins of the Inner Sphere. So they churn out MS and warships by the score, making sure AEUG can meet the Titans on equal terms.
The story of the EFF is found in the AEUG. The EFF as a whole hates playing rent-a-lackey to the Titans, and many veterans are appalled by the Titans' tendency to mimic the worst aspects of the Zabis. So there are many defections to give the AEUG and Karaba skilled personnel. After Quattro does his "I am Char" speech at Dakar, there are mass defections to AEUG.
The tragic tone underscores how vicious war is, particularly in the Universal Century, I think that's where it shines for me. I like Kamille's happy ending in the Movies better than what I understand he faces in the TV version.
There you have it, and it's a good thing to take away from the show. :) The original TV bloodbath that starts about episode 45 and picks up in the gotterdammerung of 49-50 really has to be viewed for the full effect. Describing it second-hand doesn't convey the true feeling of the situation. The only bright spot is Jerid's exit, which is legendary! :lol: Not being as bloody-minded as I was in earlier years, the movie ending is fine by me. If Tomino-sama decided to offer a happier ending to Camille and Fa, I can accept that with a smile. :)
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Re: Zeta Gundam: Why is it so great?

I really love Zeta, and I don't feel like I need to justify it. I watched the show completely free of any outside influences - I'd never seen another Gundam show, except the original MSG which I watched just before Zeta, and I'd never read or heard anyone's opinions on any of these shows, and my only exposure to Gundam was that a few of my friends really liked Wing and Seed (I didn't see Seed until a year later, and I still haven't finished Wing for various reasons, mostly the time/interest ratio).

So despite not being influenced by this supposedly contrived opinion that everyone has to like Zeta, I loved Zeta and now, having watched everything but ZZ, Victory, and the majority of Wing, I can easily tell people that it's my favorite (favourite?) Gundam series... with one caveat, which I ALWAYS tell people: Zeta is only the best in light of the original Gundam.

I would NEVER tell anyone just to watch Zeta because Zeta is supposedly the best there is. Without the events of the original MSG, you would never get any of the parallels between Kamille and Amuro (besides those that Amuro says himself), understand the significance of Quattro trying to mentor Kamille (or the significance of Char in general), and you probably wouldn't understand that the Federation were originally the good guys. They are, to me, one inseparable show.

On its own (that being, if MSG didn't exist or if I'd watched Zeta first), I don't know where I'd put Zeta on the list... probably second, after Gundam X. That's not to say that Zeta doesn't come into its own towards the end (and my god, that ending, I just remember my jaw dropping, and subsequently running to the internet to find out what the hell happened to Kamille), but it was all the little, "Ohh, so that's what happened..." stuff that you wouldn't get without a viewing of MSG that made the beginning of the show interesting.

Also, I wouldn't call Zeta perfect by any means, there are definitely 10 episodes around 35-45 that are just plain boring. I'd dare to say that 00, despite being the same length (though aided by the fact that there are two separate seasons), is a more 'watchable' show. I would certainly recommend it over Zeta to someone who wasn't willing to sit through MSG or the MSG movie trilogy first.

The only thing I think that needs to be put to rest is the idea that the Zeta Gundam itself is undeniably the greatest Gundam design ever. All of my friends and I prefer the Mk-II any day of the week...
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