About Macross, should any of it be possible?

[zerogradius]

Okay, so after space war 1 only about a million people survived. That number is significantly lowered if you use DYRL as a reference, considering that, unlike in the tv series, there were no survivors on Earth. With only a million people left after the war at most, how is it possible that so many Macross fleets exist a mere thirty years later? Even if people were making kids like crazy, there still would not have been enough to fill up all those fleets. Not to mention that there would not have been enough resources left on Earth to feed a lot of people, as they were struggling just to feed the ones who survived the war who were spread out in all those cities. Even if the Zentradi population was added, I don't see it being more than 2 or 3 million combined.

Given the dire straits that they were under, and the miniscule population, I don't see how any space exploration could have taken place so quickly. Personally, I think it would take at least 3 generations to get the planet back on its feet before even attempting to send fleets into space. Yet, by the 2040s, there are several fleets in existence. Can someone explain it to me, cause I don't see how its possible.

[iguanaman8989]

With the integration of the Zentradi fleet, the humans gained access to their technologies. They had the Zentradi cloning and genetic technologies at their disposal to fill out the population (rapid cloning, gene splicing etc).

As for the production, they had the Zentradi factory satellites. Tell it what you want it to build, feed it a couple of asteroids for raw materials, and voila.

[zerogradius]

I don't remember it ever being stated that genetic engineering or cloning ever took place, so while it is within the realm of possibility, I doubt it. The Zentradi continued that practise as evidenced by the clones of Quamzin and Exedol in Macross Frontier, but I don't think humans would have partaken in it. Let's not forget that even if humans were clones en masse, there still would not have been enough food to feed them all.

As far as the Zentradi factory goes, it was broken down when they acquired it, and it was never stated that it was repaired or that they found any more. I doubt that they could have repaired it, since it was protoculture technology and the Zentradi themselves, though they constantly used it, had no idea how to fix or even maintain it.

[azrael]

I don't remember it ever being stated that genetic engineering or cloning ever took place,...

This is found in supplementary materials throughout the years.

so while it is within the realm of possibility, I doubt it. ... but I don't think humans would have partaken in it.

Just because you think humans won't doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Let's not forget that even if humans were clones en masse, there still would not have been enough food to feed them all.

They cloned everything from humans, plants and animals. And while bringing resources for those Factory Satellites, they also brought back other materials.

As far as the Zentradi factory goes, it was broken down when they acquired it, and it was never stated that it was repaired or that they found any more. I doubt that they could have repaired it, since it was protoculture technology and the Zentradi themselves, though they constantly used it, had no idea how to fix or even maintain it.

They found more. Many more. And they repaired them. Even the emigrant fleets found some and integrated them with their fleets. And the Zentradi were taught to repair their tools. If Quamzin could repair a ship that landed in the jungle, don't think they couldn't be taught to repair their own ships.

[zerogradius]

1. There is no evidence, suggestion, statement or proof that humans cloned themselves post space war 1. We know that the Zentradi cloned themselves as well as made babies during that same period, so if the humans were doing it as well, why wasn't there any mention of it. There isn't a single human character who is identified as being a clone, which goes against what you say. When you take into consideration that by Macross Plus there were several Macross fleets all over the universe, that would mean that the majority of the human race would have to be clones, and since not a single person was identified as one, I don't see that being possible. The suggestion that they cloned themselves is possible, but until there is actual evidence to back it up, it remains speculation.

2. If cloning food was the common practise, why were there areas strictly for agriculture on Macross fleets. Why bother going to the trouble of creating a place that can produce food in space with conditions similar to Earth's when all they had to do was push a button to get what they want.

3. The Zentradi were not incapable of repairing things, it was not their practice to do so. Since they could just get a new weapon or ship at the push of a button, they never bothered to repair anything. However, I believe you're right about them acquiring more factories, as the Earthlings did encounter more Zentradi through the years.

[Chris]

Zerogradius, just because you like to assume no evidence exists doesn't mean that there isn't any. And before you ask, Macross Compendium is an officially endorsed resource.

Operation to capture a factory satellite under the direction of the Vrlitwhai Kridanik's flagship begins. This operation is the first of three major campaigns to capture satellite factories.

Mass cloning of people as well as animals and plants through the use of Protoculture technology begins.

[azrael]

1. There is no evidence, suggestion, statement or proof that humans cloned themselves post space war 1. We know that the Zentradi cloned themselves as well as made babies during that same period, so if the humans were doing it as well, why wasn't there any mention of it. There isn't a single human character who is identified as being a clone, which goes against what you say. ...

Yes. As I've said, supplementary materials have mentioned cloning. More recently, the Macross Chronicle guide has mentioned it. Just because you don't see it in-series doesn't mean it didn't happen. Like many shows, additional material comes from outside of the shows. And not everyone is a clone. Cloning only occurred for short period before they stopped it due to genetic and hereditary diseases. As Chris mentioned, much of this is has been noted in the Macross Compendium, which has used many of these original written materials and published them online. If every Gundam show threw out every bit of info in every episode, there won't be a story or a show. It would 25 minutes of reading a textbook. That's not entertainment.

2. If cloning food was the common practise, why were there areas strictly for agriculture on Macross fleets. Why bother going to the trouble of creating a place that can produce food in space with conditions similar to Earth's when all they had to do was push a button to get what they want.

Cloning was only practiced for a short period due to problems which manifested later.

Because of the increase in hereditary children's diseases due to the overuse of cloning, mass cloning is terminated.

And not every fleet has a bio-plant. Most used a chemical-plant to supply food and resources. And why use a bio-plant when they have chemical plants? Why not? Maybe letting things naturally grow is a better solution than to constantly have chemicals running through the population.

3. The Zentradi were not incapable of repairing things, it was not their practice to do so.

They couldn't repair anything. The Macross Chronicle notes it was due to restrictions placed on the Zentradi by Protoculture.

Again, you're basing your statements on material you have only seen in-series. Like any Gundam series or ANY other show, there's a mountain of Macross-material that's been published outside of the show, and still being published. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exists.

[zerogradius]

Interesting.

I've never heard of the Macross Compendium, and now that I have, I'll be sure to look it up. There's some stuff that has been bothering me about Macross, so its nice to finally have that answered. I still find it odd that nothing about cloned humans was ever mentioned in the show, but this is Macross, so I'll just leave it at that.

[DeltasTaii]

Aegis Focker is all but confirmed as a clone son of Roy.

It's also worth keeping in mind that most Macross fleets aren't that big, and their population should also grow after they're launched. Frontier is larger than usual-a hell of a lot apparently, at 10,000,000 people as of 2059-but a normal one is somewhere in the range of a town or small city. 7, for example, has 350,000 people total as of 2045 and wasn't even launched until 2030, two decades after Space War 1. Macross 5 had similar numbers of Zentraedi. Frontier is Macross 25 not launched until 2041, a full generation after that war. The earlier Megaroad types only carried less than 100,000 people like the Macross.

Also recall Earth is not the only planet humanity inhabits. They found Eden rather early on, so that gives them another planet with a comfortable and undamaged environment.


Being that there's a heavy repopulation pressure and the presence of clones and Zentraedi to boost the population, the numbers they have by the times they have them are pretty within reach.

[azrael]

And just to give you a rough idea what these numbers mean,

At 300,000-350,000 (New Macross class), you're in the range between Cincinnati, OH and Arlington, TX.
At 10,000,000 (Island class), you have roughly the population of New York, NY, or somewhere between the entire states of Michigan and Ohio spread out across the entire Island Cluster of the fleet.

And yes, fleets not only left from Earth, but from Eden, too.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Aegis Focker is all but confirmed as a clone son of Roy.

Very interesting. So does that mean there could be clones of, say, Hikaru, Misa, Max or Claudia wandering around? I bet that gets annoying sometimes--"Hey aren't you that famous ace from the original Macross..." "NO!"

Also, I'm pretty sure Megaroad ships had a crew of 80,000 so you're close enough.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I don't remember hearing much about the clone program in the original Macross TV series, but I've only seen it once, so did they just carry that over from DYRL?

[azrael]

Very interesting. So does that mean there could be clones of, say, Hikaru, Misa, Max or Claudia wandering around? I bet that gets annoying sometimes--"Hey aren't you that famous ace from the original Macross..." "NO!"

Aegis Focker's official status is unclear. And with cloning and genetic engineering, you never know. You could see someone who looks like Hikaru, but after a double take, that's just a guy with hair going all over the place.

Also, I'm pretty sure Megaroad ships had a crew of 80,000 so you're close enough.

Actually, the revised numbers brought it down to 25,000 from 80,000.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I don't remember hearing much about the clone program in the original Macross TV series, but I've only seen it once, so did they just carry that over from DYRL?

Again, supplement material not in the series.

[Antares]

Yeah when you watch Frontier you don't exactly feel like every life is precious. Maybe most NUNS pilots are clones of one rather mediocre grunt pilot?

With the general populace, cloning might work if you made sure that no clones of the same person were in the same fleet to decrease potential social problems. Or, by the time of Frontier, maybe it would've be considered just a bit awkward but ultimately "natural", much like Grace and implants were on Galaxy.

I actually found it very interesting to explore the pressures of re-population and the steps taken, but I assume even the Macross Comp is fairly skimpy on those details. Ah hypothesizing about the human state via fiction. But since that would be purely speculative I suppose we shouldn't indulge.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Actually, the revised numbers brought it down to 25,000 from 80,000.

25,000? Isn't that less than what the SDF-1 had on board?

[azrael]

25,000? Isn't that less than what the SDF-1 had on board?

Yeah. They needed room for more supplies for the long journey.

[zerogradius]

One thing that still bugs me is that if cloning was used in 2012, why are people in 2059 against the use of cybernetic implants? It was illegal on Frontier if I remember correctly, and it was implied that the use of it was fringe and was aloowed on certain fleets like the Macross Galaxy. If cloning was so rampant, why are the clones and the children of them so against cybernetic implants?

[azrael]

One thing that still bugs me is that if cloning was used in 2012, why are people in 2059 against the use of cybernetic implants? It was illegal on Frontier if I remember correctly, and it was implied that the use of it was fringe and was aloowed on certain fleets like the Macross Galaxy. If cloning was so rampant, why are the clones and the children of them so against cybernetic implants?

Cloning was used as a means to rebuild the population. But due to hereditary diseases, cloning was stopped. Cloning only lasted for 18 years before the problems began dominating.

Implants are forbidden on Frontier because they're like performance enhancing drugs. Implants aren't treated as normal medical prosthesis. Implants are treated more like cosmetic surgery. They are allowed and exploited on Galaxy. There's no mention if other fleets have their own rules about implants, only Frontier and Galaxy.

[zerogradius]

How many clones suffered from hereditary diseases?The reason I ask is that if cloning went on for 18 years, then that would mean that the majority of or at least a large percentage of the population were clones. With that being true, if the hereditary diseases were a problem, then I can assume that a large number of those clones suffered from them. Which in turn would mean that many human beings suffered from them as well.

I know hereditary diseases could mean anything, but it would be interesting to find out just how much of an impact it had on humanity.

[azrael]

Sorry. They have never given us any numbers.