UC Questions

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UC Questions

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:55 pm

I've been looking into 0079 lately and a couple of things suddenly occured to me.

1. Degwin's famous quote to Gihren about beaing a space-age Hitler seems kind of out of place all of a sudden. Considering all the things that Degwin himself did and that the Zeon did at the start of the war, I'm not so sure now why Degwin is so worried about the actions of his son.

2. If Char wanted revenge for the death of his father, then why'd he kill ALL the Zabi's? Think about it, IIRC Char and Sayla's father was assassinated when they were little kids. I'm no expert but I would think that the older Zabi children would only still be children themselves, most likely uninvolved in the plot. So why does Char kill all the Zabi's when really his vengeance should be focused on Degwin and also considering that Garma was his good friend and Kycillia at least thought he was too valuable to just get rid of?

3. Who is Sasro Zabi?
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Hyakushiki » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:19 pm

1. I got the Idea that it was Gihren that was handling the overall war strategy for Zeon, Degwin in his later years was sovereign and head of state but his children ran the day to day affairs. What was more disturbing to me was that Gihren took the remark as a sort of complement.

2. This one ties into your first question, the Zabis embodied the heart of the Zeon state, leaving any of them around would give their supporters a leader to rally behind to resist any attempts to oust them from power. Char wanted revenge, and once he started down that path he had to go all the way with it, but he also wanted to reform the Zeon government to make it more like his father's vision. As long as the Zabis were around that was not likely to happen.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Fritz Ashlyn » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:26 pm

2. If you're going to take revenge, you might as well go for broke. Plus, Gihren Zabi was 15 years older than Char so it's not like the Zabi children were innocent toddlers when Zeon Deikun was killed.

3. Sasro Zabi was Degwin's second son who was killed in a car bombing. It's how Dozle got his scars.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by mcred23 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:52 pm

1. Hyakushiki pretty much had this right. Degwin is little more than a figurehead and Gihren is the one who led Zeon into the war and into killing half of humanity.

3. For a few more details, Sasro's death occurs in October 0068, and it's thought that it was done by followers of the then recently dead Zeon Zum Deikun.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Cardi Doorl » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:53 pm

MBF-06/ZGMF-X12A Arbiter wrote:1. Degwin's famous quote to Gihren about beaing a space-age Hitler seems kind of out of place all of a sudden. Considering all the things that Degwin himself did and that the Zeon did at the start of the war, I'm not so sure now why Degwin is so worried about the actions of his son.
Been so, so many years since I last saw MSG, but I thought the space-Hitler comment was mostly about Gihren's spacenoid master-race ideology rather than killing a bunch of people.
MBF-06/ZGMF-X12A Arbiter wrote:2. If Char wanted revenge for the death of his father, then why'd he kill ALL the Zabi's? Think about it, IIRC Char and Sayla's father was assassinated when they were little kids. I'm no expert but I would think that the older Zabi children would only still be children themselves, most likely uninvolved in the plot. So why does Char kill all the Zabi's when really his vengeance should be focused on Degwin...
Like Hyakushiki stated, Char's revenge is not just for the direct murder of his father, but for the Zabi family's corruption of Zeon Deikun's vision and ideals. All of Degwin's kids had a hand in that. It's also why Char had no intention of harming Mineva who, though part of the Zabi family, clearly couldn't have had a hand in either the assassination or the corruption of Contolism.
MBF-06/ZGMF-X12A Arbiter wrote:...and also considering that Garma was his good friend and Kycillia at least thought he was too valuable to just get rid of?
Was Garma really "his good friend", or did Char just wheedle himself into his good graces to get closer to the rest of the family? Think about that. Whether Char really considered Garma his friend is open to interpretation.

Though I'm not sure what the relevance is in Kycilia recognizing Char's skill.
MBF-06/ZGMF-X12A Arbiter wrote:3. Who is Sasro Zabi?
In addition to what has already been stated above, I'd suggest this old thread which had some discussion about what we know about Sasro (with some interference from fan theories mistaken for fact), and also this even older thread which discusses what's known about the Zabi family in general (and yet more people passing on fan rumors and theories as fact :().
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Re: UC Questions

Post by burgerseatbright » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:10 am

Oh ho ho! Another UC thread I can dip my toes in. Today is a wonderful day indeed.

1. Degwin's rise to power is a bit ambiguous. Yes, there was the Deikun and Zabi factions. However, it's never really concrete that Degwin killed Zeon Deikun. This can lead to massive amounts of speculation in if he even did kill Zeon in the first place. Considering that Gihren is 24 at the time of Zeon Deikun's death and is willing to murder his own father to rise to power without batting an eyelash, he could be just as likely as a guilty party. There's also the source of information where Char got his information from, Jimba Ral, and how valid that source is. In the episode "Char and Sayla" in MSG, you are hearing from Jimba Ral's interpretation of events with his narration instead of viewing as a third party.

There's also how it was brought to light that Gihren was the one who initiated the purge of Zeon loyalists. Not Degwin. Who Zeon's true murderer really is, we will never know. But given Gihren's personality, his drive, and his actions, I'm more likely to suspect him. Even if Degwin was the guilty one or even partly guilty of knowing it would take place, it's very clear in MSG that he's not a ruthless dictator. When Gihren wants to take advantage of his own brother's death to initiate a drive in Zeon's people to fight, Degwin is against this. He reluctantly enters the One Year War and lets his children take charge, becoming something of a figurehead.

It is said by Degwin himself in that same episode you mentioned of him referring to Gihren as Hitler that he created Zeon as a sovereign to unite the people, nothing more or less. His disappointment with Gihren lies in Gihren's ambitions combined with ruthless tactics and turning the union of Zeon into a dictatorship. Ergo, the Hitler comparison. While Degwin is seen still grieving over the loss of his youngest and frankly less corrupt son, Garma, Gihren is making plans to eliminate a mass amount of people until only the select few spacenoids are left. Degwin is also shown to be fed up with the lies and spilled blood for at the near end of MSG his ship planned to meet General Revil to discuss peace. This interfered with Gihren's plans which resulted in his decision to murder his own father.

Personally, Gihren's ruthless nature is why I enjoyed his character. It takes all kinds of flavors to make a great series.

2. Well, that can be answered in three words: Char is insane. I mean, I love the character, but let's not kid ourselves here. The man has an Oedipus Complex a mile high what with spouting, "Lalah could have been my mom!" It's also reflected a bit with Reccoa and Nanai who are seen in scenes cuddling him like a child. He also tends to twist his father's ideals. As cited from Zeon's speech, he was more of a pacifist that believed man needed to leave Earth and be free from bureaucrats. Char on the other hand not only decided to seek vengeance, he took many of his father's ideals and tried to force them through violence. CCA is a dead ringer of this, along with Sayla's warning in ZZ of how dangerous Char really is. Alternatively, there is a point I have heard from another Char fan that many of his actions such as deciding to destroy Earth and Axis all at once stem from a desire to eliminate his past (or rather, the failures of it).

Honestly, I could write an entire essay on Char's psyche, why his motivations are the way they are, and his relationships with others and how it reflects who he is. But I'll try and make this as short as possible.

See, the thing about Char, is he really doesn't value people until they are gone. In fact, the only time he's ever shown true, consistent affection to anyone was Sayla. And while there are characters such as Lalah and Garma that are shown one instance of genuine affection while they are alive, Char's interaction with them is inconsistent. Garma and Lalah also share distinct personality traits that are very similar: Both are naive, they put their trust in people that don't deserve it, they show Char constant affection and adoration that is selfless, both have good intentions, both have soft hearts and empathy for others including those outside of Zeon, both are brave, and both are willing to sacrifice their lives without fear. And both are mainly ideas to Char, which leads to Char's inconsistency in behavior towards them.

The major difference between Garma and Lalah? Char sees Garma as "the reason dad is dead" while Lalah is "newtypes are the future". One represents the bitter past of Zeon Deikun while the other represents the future Zeon Deikun wanted to create. This can be seen when Char tells Garma the reason he murdered him is "blame it on your father", followed by Char's very manic, unstable laughter. It is also seen with the idea Lalah represents when Char mentions to Amuro he needs to kill the Feddie because there's no room for unstable newtypes. He then offers Amuro to join him in his new faction because "it's what Lalah would have wanted". Again, like with how Char treated Garma when thinking of him as an idea, Char again is seen in this scene as very on edge.

But this leads to complexity. For even though Lalah and Garma were inevitably tools to Char while alive, he does show some moments where he sees them as people. In Gundam Origins, when Garma is fast asleep on his desk and could have no knowledge of what Char is doing, Char wakes up and wraps a blanket around him and goes back to sleep. This behavior is very impulsive which leads to it being genuine; there's no benefit out of doing this and very little calculations were made. He just does it. With Lalah the genuine affection is mixed with Oedipal feelings during the scene when he kisses her. He tells her that she will be leading him in battle from now on, and actually listens to her advice about wearing a helmet.

There's no doubt Char manipulated both of them for his own use. Char even mentions to Amuro in CCA that he "used Lalah like a machine". He forced her to fight because he saw her newtype potential and freaked out whenever someone threatened to disrupt this process. He even mentions to Lalah that she shouldn't concern herself with romantic matters and tells her "she owes him" because he saved her life. With Garma it's the same. He mentions to Sayla how he planned to use that tie to get in with the Zabis.

However, the loss of Garma and Lalah were huge blows to Char. After Garma's death during Gihren's speech, Char is seen sitting near a counter in a bar drinking and fidgeting his fingers uncomfortably. He mentions to Sayla in the Texas Colony "Artesia, I have changed. I've grown up since that time. I've realized even if the Federation does defeat the Zabi family, that won't achieve true peace." Then of course there's shooting Kycilia's head off and saying in CDA that now Kycilia can join Garma in heaven, and in MSG he considers it "a parting gift". With Lalah, Char is outraged by her death and eventually it leads to CCA. Which can be summed up as, "Amuro you piss me off and I'm throwing this asteroid filled with nukes at Earth to get your attention!" He also reflects after an intimate scene with Nanai of his fear of losing Lalah to Amuro.

In any case, Char is complex and so are his feelings and deals with those around him.

3. Sasro Zabi was one of the Zabi brothers (younger than Gihren but older than Dozle from what I recall). He appears only in the manga Gundam Origins and resembles Dozle in body stature and facial structure. However, unlike Dozle, Sasro is more brutish in nature. Enough to even smack Kycilia (who is 15 at the time and much smaller in figure mind you) in the face for pointing something out. This act even caused Gihren to pop his eyes out in disbelief.

He dies in an explosion due to the fighting factions in Zeon. It's the same explosion where Dozle gets his scars.

Excellent questions. Hope you found the answers you were looking for. :D Sorry for the length!

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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:32 pm

@burgerseatbright
So what about Char in Zeta Gundam? It seems he has some affection for Kamille and other members of the AEUG, and he seems very angry when Haman is clearly using Meneva. And in that scene, he seems angriest that Haman is using Mineva, not the fact that Haman is trying to revive the Zabi legacy. Could Char have softened/humanized that much? One of the scenes that touches me so much in Zeta, is when he expresses just how much regret he feels over his actions up to this point. But did he then become absolutely cold again by CCA? If only Char had not taken the Titans personally, he could have remained a good person as Quattro Bajeena.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:34 pm

Maybe Char banged his head one too many times when Haman ZOINKS his Hyaku Shiki up?
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Re: UC Questions

Post by burgerseatbright » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:47 pm

InjuredPelican wrote:@burgerseatbright
So what about Char in Zeta Gundam? It seems he has some affection for Kamille and other members of the AEUG, and he seems very angry when Haman is clearly using Meneva. And in that scene, he seems angriest that Haman is using Mineva, not the fact that Haman is trying to revive the Zabi legacy. Could Char have softened/humanized that much? One of the scenes that touches me so much in Zeta, is when he expresses just how much regret he feels over his actions up to this point. But did he then become absolutely cold again by CCA? If only Char had not taken the Titans personally, he could have remained a good person as Quattro Bajeena.

A very good point. It actually adds to Char being completely insane. Quattro Bajeena was rather an alias he went by because he was trying to hide from himself. Many times, even when Kamille is pointing out how obvious it is Char is Quattro, Char refused to acknowledge his past. He even went into story talk about Char's faults as if he were talking as a third party. A great example that he's not exactly in sync with reality is when he is about to depart Haman's ship and Haman yells at him that she has betrayed a great many people. Char looks back at Haman and roars, "I've never betrayed anyone in my life!" We know this isn't true from MSG with Garma and Kycilia. Kycilia could be debated, but with Garma the betrayal was crystal clear.

So I do believe like you pointed out it is possible that Char softened up in Zeta. Such as actually being concerned with Mineva. In fact, you could even tie his concern with Mineva to feeling guilty over what he did to the Zabis. However, I do think it was short lived from what we encounter with Sayla's warning in ZZ and CCA. Mainly because Char was trying to be someone he wasn't. And when Kai's letter pointed out Char needed to come out as himself, his true colors started to break the surface. Later in Unicorn we find out that Mineva has been incognito without Char's help, so it adds to Char leaving his identity "Quattro" behind. You could say Zeta was Char's time to reflect and try to start anew, but eventually he fell back his usual habits again.

MBF-06/ZGMF-X12A Arbiter wrote:Maybe Char banged his head one too many times when Haman ZOINKS his Hyaku Shiki up?
Lol! Well, anything is possible with Char. :wink:

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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:08 pm

I've come up with another way to describe Char and his mental state. I imagine, after the death of his beloved father, he took on his father's ideals. He first venerated, and then deified his own father. He took it upon himself, as the Prophet to Zeon Zum Deikun, to avenge his god, and to force the true ideals of Deikun upon the world. It was his missions, his divine mission. But when Amuro shook things up, he became disillusioned. He attemtped normal life as a new man, Quattro Bajeena.

But then the Titans arrived, and Quattro saw first hand the corruption of the Earth Federation. His faith, no his desperation, for his father's ideals were reawakened. He would take on any evil he had to to turn the world into what his god desired, or as he interpreted what his god desired. When he came back into his own as a true Prophet, the spacenoids rallied around him. He was an idol himself. Maybe he began to believe in himself as well. But once again Amuro stepped in and messed it all up.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by burgerseatbright » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:25 pm

That's one way of looking at it. However, going by CCA and Char's reaction to the enthusiasm of Zeon supporters, he's not particularly passionate about being the figurehead for his father's vision. He mentions bitterly before he is put on broadcast, "I'm like a clown," in one scene. And the genuine interest of Char is definitely questionable when he thinks while looking outside of the window at Side Six during the meeting for trading for Axis, "Amuro, I hope you can sense me. I'm doing something wicked right now!"

CCA is basically, Char's lost his marbles. Especially in the final scene when he's having warrior therapy with Amuro, "Lalah could have been my mom!" And screaming, "I used her like a machine!" It's pretty much Char and his issues, and using the current war to vent about them. I have to sympathize with Nanai a bit, since even she starts to get fed up with his antics.

However, it's perfectly fine to disagree on this if you want. Some people view Char as coo coo bananas while others don't.

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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:06 pm

I just consider deciding someone is all out insane a last resort, is all. I think people act irrationally all of the time, and some people do it in bigger ways. There have been too many examples of warriors that ascended to political positions and used it to fuel their warped visions of reality. It just takes enough ego to believe you have all the answers for the world, which is exactly what Amuro calls Char out on in the film. If he's any kind of maniac, I'd go with egomaniac.

To support the getting high off his followers, he does seem truly touched by the scene in the subway car. But perhaps he is colder than that, and absolutely devoted to his ideals, screw having any sympathizers. He just plays the parts he has to to move his agenda. Hmm...
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Re: UC Questions

Post by flamingtroll » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:51 pm

It's too narrow to base Char's action entirely on his personal issues, conversely I doubt Char is entirely driven by ideals. It's more of a mix of both. His personal development may have influenced him on his political and philosophical outlook, but it is not the only cause of his actions. Similarly,His ideals alone is also not enough to justify the extremity of his actions.

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Re: UC Questions

Post by burgerseatbright » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:24 pm

InjuredPelican wrote:I just consider deciding someone is all out insane a last resort, is all. I think people act irrationally all of the time, and some people do it in bigger ways.
Try not to take it too personally. As I said, I enjoy Char's character. :wink: I also think Gihren is insane in the fact that he shows sociopath tendencies. There's nothing wrong with having characters like this in a franchise. In fact, they tend to add the spice needed to make a series entertaining.

Also, there's a huge difference between kicking the wall because you spilled coffee on yourself and say...throwing an asteroid full of nukes at Earth because you're fed up with Earth not listening to you and want Amuro to get riled up. When irrational behavior turns into mass amounts of destructive actions that put harm to others and yourself, it's a case of being mentally unstable. But hey, that's what makes Char interesting to me is because he mixes his personal issues with his political ideals. He's a distinctive shade of gray.
flamingtroll wrote:It's too narrow to base Char's action entirely on his personal issues, conversely I doubt Char is entirely driven by ideals. It's more of a mix of both. His personal development may have influenced him on his political and philosophical outlook, but it is not the only cause of his actions. Similarly,His ideals alone is also not enough to justify the extremity of his actions.
Kind of what I was getting at. Char actions are influenced by his wacky personality, but he also has ideals. His ideals are sometimes used to justify his actions to people, as are his own conflicts brought into political affairs.

It also varies in what canon you go by. Book canon Char is more stable than say TV Series Char. Movie version Char from what I've heard is somewhere in the middle.

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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:41 pm

burgerseatbright wrote: Try not to take it too personally. As I said, I enjoy Char's character. :wink: I also think Gihren is insane in the fact that he shows sociopath tendencies. There's nothing wrong with having characters like this in a franchise. In fact, they tend to add the spice needed to make a series entertaining.
I didn't take it personally. Char definitely has some issues. I just hear people get called insane a lot. People that commit great atrocities are far more in control of their own actions than most people want to believe. I think many people want to believe those types of evil people are insane, to distance them from themselves. Its frightening to consider one might commit great evil too if they had enough power...
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:02 pm

InjuredPelican wrote:One of the scenes that touches me so much in Zeta, is when he expresses just how much regret he feels over his actions up to this point.
When was that? I don't recall a scene like that from Zeta, but it's admittedly been quite a while.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:38 pm

I can't remember the exact episode, but its when Kamille hits Quattro. After Quattro gets hit, he expresses that kamille doesn't understand yet, and says something about the things he did in the past. It's not just what he says, but how he says it. I'll need to watch it again to be sure. Definitely one of my favorite Char defining moments for me though.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by flamingtroll » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:43 pm

InjuredPelican wrote:
I didn't take it personally. Char definitely has some issues. I just hear people get called insane a lot. People that commit great atrocities are far more in control of their own actions than most people want to believe. I think many people want to believe those types of evil people are insane, to distance them from themselves. Its frightening to consider one might commit great evil too if they had enough power...
That's definitely true. If commiting mass murder is the definition of insanity, then a lot of political leaders throughout the ages are more or less insane as well when they are clearly not. It's more accurate to call them inhumane than insane. A lot of atrocious decisions are made rationally. Although it's questionable what sanity iis when humane behaviour is often more emotional than rational.

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Re: UC Questions

Post by burgerseatbright » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:56 pm

Of course a lot of political leaders don't have spurts of manic laughter like Char partakes in.

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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:08 pm

burgerseatbright wrote:Of course a lot of political leaders don't have spurts of manic laughter like Char partakes in.
As far as you know. They don't let the cameras see everything.
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