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Re: UC Questions

Post by burgerseatbright » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:16 pm

I can see it now. Vladimir Putin cracking into a fit of laughter while his secretary brings him coffee.

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Re: UC Questions

Post by harotype » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:17 pm

Psychiatric/legal definitions of insanity usually involve being aware of the consequences of your actions, so Char's more or less not getting off on pleading insane.

Being manipulative, suicidal and delusional (by CCA-time), otoh...

A personality tool called the Enneagram gives these defintions for really psychologically unhealthy Type Threes: (and yes. Char's a 3. hahahahahaha...)

For very unhealthy Threes winning becomes everything and a Three's mask can fully eclipse his soul. They can be amoral, Machiavellian, heartless, slick, and plagiarizing. They start to believe their own lies and con people without conscience. Their aim is to maintain an illusion of superiority from which they derive a vindictive sense of triumph. Anyone who has ever been deliberately and maliciously deceived has felt the sting of this attitude.

(Pathological Threes) They have become so adroit at deception and so invested in their successful persona even they believe their own lies. They also still feel so threatened and jealous of their competitors' success that they will sink to the dark pits of hell to sabotage or beat them.


And remember, none of that was written with Char in mind....
Feel free to bold and/or exclaim away.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by burgerseatbright » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:31 pm

harotype, you win the internet.

No but seriously, your comment is awesome and you should feel awesome.

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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:54 pm

burgerseatbright wrote:harotype, you win the internet.

No but seriously, your comment is awesome and you should feel awesome.
I agree. harotype pretty much nailed Char. It would be interesting to see where the other characters of MSG would line up psychologically. Now that I think of it, the heroes of Gundam are often the most sane characters, even if they have their own faults. They're still chugging along normal in the head for the most part. Kamille and Amuro overcome their bigger character flaws to many degrees, and become better people for it. Char flirts with this as Quattro, but spirals right back into borderline madness.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Black Knight » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:23 am

I'd say that Char is at his most reasonable facsimile of a human when he's not living as Char "Red Comet" Aznable. By no means is he perfect as Quattro, as seen with his inability to react to Reccoa's affection with anything but indifference, but it seems Char tried so hard to not be The Red Comet in Zeta because he knew that he couldn't meet everyone's expectations. I see "Quattro" as Char at his most honest with himself; he's a decent leader of MS troops, but that's about all. It's when people constantly push and prod Char into being The Red Comet/Zeon Zum Daikun's Son that he becomes unstable and selfish, and uses people like machines. Yes, it's obvious from the start that "Quattro" is really Char (my favorite example is Kai's reaction to merely seeing him, spotting him as Char Aznable despite never setting eyes upon him during the OYW). And it's people constantly reminding Char that they know who he "really is" that the Char Aznable persona is forced out again...leading Char to eventually abandon the AEUG and his friends there who were more than willing to overlook his actions in the OYW. I don't think it was so much Char taking the Titans personally (when, after all, has Char ever been able to empathize with another human being?) as it was everyone else thinking that they "needed" Char "Red Comet" Aznable to lead them to Victory!

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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:43 am

Certainly an interesting idea. I agree with you on Quattro being Char at his most honest. He seems very humble and forth right with everyone. He admits to Kamille that in the end he's only a soldier, and that fighting is really all he knows how to do. Perhaps Quattro liked Kamille because Kamille never asked him to become Char again. Mineva also seemed quite accepting of Char as he was, being too young or uninterested in the "Red Comet". It would be interesting if Char indeed took up his old persona to appease the cries of the many. Is he that susceptible to the whims of other people? He seemed so self motivated in MSG, but perhaps that is an aspect he discarded as Quattro.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by harotype » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:34 am

Black Knight wrote:I'd say that Char is at his most reasonable facsimile of a human when he's not living as Char "Red Comet" Aznable. By no means is he perfect as Quattro, as seen with his inability to react to Reccoa's affection with anything but indifference, but it seems Char tried so hard to not be The Red Comet in Zeta because he knew that he couldn't meet everyone's expectations. I see "Quattro" as Char at his most honest with himself; he's a decent leader of MS troops, but that's about all. It's when people constantly push and prod Char into being The Red Comet/Zeon Zum Daikun's Son that he becomes unstable and selfish, and uses people like machines. Yes, it's obvious from the start that "Quattro" is really Char (my favorite example is Kai's reaction to merely seeing him, spotting him as Char Aznable despite never setting eyes upon him during the OYW). And it's people constantly reminding Char that they know who he "really is" that the Char Aznable persona is forced out again...leading Char to eventually abandon the AEUG and his friends there who were more than willing to overlook his actions in the OYW. I don't think it was so much Char taking the Titans personally (when, after all, has Char ever been able to empathize with another human being?) as it was everyone else thinking that they "needed" Char "Red Comet" Aznable to lead them to Victory!
There are (inverse?) parallels to Amuro here, aren't they? Amuro has to deal with "Amuro Ray, Ace NT/Hero of the OYW" all throughout Zeta; he just copes better. Maybe because he's the hero. Maybe because he's less fractured than Char.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Black Knight » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:22 am

Yes, Amuro's more or less the opposite, in large part because while he's a famous ace, more people are afraid of "the Gundam" than of "Amuro Ray, Gundam Pilot". The more perceptive/budding Newtypes like Emma Sheen are able, at least in retrospect, to spot him when they see him, but his demons (largely relating to his unintended slaying of Lalah) haunt him in a way different from Char.

While Char's trying to run away from the Red Comet/Casval Daikun persona, because people have expectations for that person that Char knows he can't deliver, Amuro is hiding from the more direct consequence of his actions and has lost all his self-confidence as a result. It doesn't do Amuro's self-confidence any good that the government for which he fought in the OYW is scared of his skills to the point of keeping him under house arrest and spying on all of his movements and visitors.

Beltorchika is able to give Amuro some confidence back, which leads him to jumping back into a mobile suit and more or less instantly demonstrating exactly what's in his personal case of whup-ass, and gradually finding his place in the world -- as a leader of MS troops, just like Char. The fact that both are probably best suited to be MS commanders could be seen to show how much they really have in common.

Does Amuro really cope better? He starts out Zeta just as withdrawn and internally-focused as Char, but Amuro has friends, and, more importantly, lets them help him. Char, as Quattro, has all sorts of people trying to help him be a better person, but he either won't let them inside his shell or, I think more likely, he doesn't know how to do that. So, perhaps, the difference in their ability is to cope is that Amuro doesn't cope by himself (when he did, he failed even more blatantly than Char), but his ties to other human beings help draw him out and find himself, while Char never lets anyone in, but is a master of making other people think Char is the answer to their prayers (a skill he probably picked up while infiltrating Zeon before the OYW, where, since his mission was revenge, he naturally couldn't afford to let anyone see his 'real self').

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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:57 am

Black Knight wrote: ...while Char never lets anyone in, but is a master of making other people think Char is the answer to their prayers (a skill he probably picked up while infiltrating Zeon before the OYW, where, since his mission was revenge, he naturally couldn't afford to let anyone see his 'real self').
So in many ways, Char, to himself perhaps more than anyone else, is still an infiltrator, with the cover name of Quattro Bajeena. Maybe he never lets himself truly become a member of the AEUG, or a surrogate family member of the crew as so many of the rest have, such as Kamille, Fa, Apolly, Bright, etc. He's still Char, and he "knows" he's only pretending other wise.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Black Knight » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:05 am

That's possible, of course, but for the first half of Zeta Quattro is studiously avoiding becoming one of AEUG's actual leaders, keeping himself as just the MS team commander. I think that shows he's not being Secret Agent Char, because when he's being manipulative Char is usually angling for more and more authority. Zeta has people begging Quattro to admit he's Char, and therefore take a more powerful position in the AEUG, and for most of the series Char says "You've got the wrong guy, I'm just Quattro."

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Re: UC Questions

Post by Cybaster » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:36 pm

After Garma's death during Gihren's speech, Char is seen sitting near a counter in a bar drinking and fidgeting his fingers uncomfortably.
I don't know about that --- Char seems more elated that Garma is dead than he is battered, as the culmination and first step of his long road to revenge. He was there because Dozul fired him from the Space Force after Garma's death (Kycilia recruited him again shortly after), and when Gihren asked the audience why Garma was dead, Char smiled and simply said this: "because he was a spoiled brat". I'm sure that Char knew that even if Char didn't have an active hand in killing him, Garma would've certainly met his end some other way --- so Char might as well get his pound of flesh before that happens.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by burgerseatbright » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:34 am

Cybaster wrote:
After Garma's death during Gihren's speech, Char is seen sitting near a counter in a bar drinking and fidgeting his fingers uncomfortably.
I don't know about that --- Char seems more elated that Garma is dead than he is battered, as the culmination and first step of his long road to revenge. He was there because Dozul fired him from the Space Force after Garma's death (Kycilia recruited him again shortly after), and when Gihren asked the audience why Garma was dead, Char smiled and simply said this: "because he was a spoiled brat". I'm sure that Char knew that even if Char didn't have an active hand in killing him, Garma would've certainly met his end some other way --- so Char might as well get his pound of flesh before that happens.
In the TV Series, he didn't smile. However, I'm not familiar with Movie canon if he does in that. The bar scene is rather left to interpretation. I see it as uncomfortable because of his later actions and discussions with Sayla and his musings when he kills Kycilia. With Sayla, he explains he isn't doing his actions out of revenge anymore. And in CDA he distinctly mentions that he's sending Kycilia to be with Garma in heaven, while in the TV Series he considers her death to be a "parting gift".

Char isn't particularly known for being tactful. How he handled Reccoa Londe in Zeta, Nanai in CCA, and Lalah in MSG are examples of that. Strategist, he's brilliant. Human relations, not so much. But that's what makes him entertaining.

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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:05 am

According to Nanai, Char also looks down on compassion, hating Amuro for believing that to be the strength of a newtype. More and more Char sounds like a cold, hurting person, who can't relate well to humans. How did he develop into such a person. Was the absence of his parents the cause? Because Sayla seems like a very caring person, and she group up more or less the same way.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Imperial » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:01 pm

InjuredPelican wrote:According to Nanai, Char also looks down on compassion, hating Amuro for believing that to be the strength of a newtype. More and more Char sounds like a cold, hurting person, who can't relate well to humans. How did he develop into such a person. Was the absence of his parents the cause? Because Sayla seems like a very caring person, and she group up more or less the same way.
I always got the impression that the point of divergence between Char's obsessive crusading and Sayla's comparably well-adjusted personality came about because Char felt a greater sense of obligation toward living up to his father's legacy.

He was the first born, and he was also the son, which dovetails into a Macbeth-styled fixation on avenging his father as his heir. Not to say women can't feel compelled to avenge a death, but it's generally stressed more toward a male child. In fact, if memory serves, I believe the novels imply that Jinba Ral effectively brainwashed Char into the Zabi-hating, father-worshiping zealot he was by the time of 0079.

Really, Char's life history is one of people pushing their expectations on him. Jinba raised him as a Zabi assassin, and just when it looked like he was escaping the cycle of revenge to be his own man as Quattro Bageena, everyone and their mother started demanding that he "own up" to being Char Aznable, as if shunning a hateful, spiteful past was somehow cowardly.

By the time he starts flinging asteroids at Earth, he has become obsessed with the idea that he has to fix things because he has no other option.

During one of his many clashes with Amuro, he delivers a very telling line: "I'm Char Aznable! It's my destiny to enforce discipline!"
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Re: UC Questions

Post by harotype » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:10 pm

InjuredPelican wrote:According to Nanai, Char also looks down on compassion, hating Amuro for believing that to be the strength of a newtype. More and more Char sounds like a cold, hurting person, who can't relate well to humans. How did he develop into such a person. Was the absence of his parents the cause? Because Sayla seems like a very caring person, and she group up more or less the same way.
Yas and Origin, while far from perfect, do a good job of portraying young Casval/Edouard as having sociopathic traits -- someone who looks bored/sullen much of the time, rarely expresses emotion, (though in self-defense) kills one man fairly cold-bloodedly and later constantly gets into fights at school and nearly kills another (only stopping due to Sayla's screaming intervention - and she says "I hate you when you're like this."). His only emotional attachment is to his sister, whom he then essentially abandons without much affect to become Char.

Sayla/Artesia, on the other hand, is always shown reacting normally, expressing affection (emotion, grief) for many people (and her cat), wanting to become a doctor to take care of people and make them well... Sometimes personality is just innate.

As far as Jinba Ral's talk of assassinations and revenge, Sayla disliked it out of hand and wanted nothing to do with it and her brother, unsurprisingly, only looked bored. (He looked the same way when the real Char Aznable later brought up Zabis, independence for Spacenoids and Contolism... though I think we can assume "indifferent" is his default mode. Just not a person who tends to show interest to others.)
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Re: UC Questions

Post by InjuredPelican » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:12 pm

Imperial wrote: During one of his many clashes with Amuro, he delivers a very telling line: "I'm Char Aznable! It's my destiny to enforce discipline!"
I always felt that was a forced line. I couldn't tell if he really believed it, based on his own words and actions leading up to that point. If he did, he was a different man from the Char of the OYW or the Titans conflict for sure.

That information on Jinba Ral is very interesting, and effectively explains at least the origins of Char's vengeful feelings. Perhaps if Sayla had known then that Char's mind was being twisted, she could have persuaded him differently then. But by the OYW, Char was too far past that point.
harotype wrote:Yas and Origin, while far from perfect, do a good job of portraying young Casval/Edouard as having sociopathic traits -- someone who looks bored/sullen much of the time, rarely expresses emotion, (though in self-defense) kills one man fairly cold-bloodedly and later constantly gets into fights at school and nearly kills another (only stopping due to Sayla's screaming intervention - and she says "I hate you when you're like this."). His only emotional attachment is to his sister, whom he then essentially abandons without much affect to become Char.
Its interesting for him to claim to be a Newtype, when he seems to refuse/or not be capable of true empathy. I can see why he'd argue with Amuro on what a Newtype's purpose was. Amuro drew strength from others, but Char was drawing power from himself. If Char could expand his own empathy, I wonder if he would be a more powerful Newtype?
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:40 pm

makes me wonder how Char ever had any romantic relationship with Haman although it does explain why she hates him.
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Black Knight » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:56 pm

Personally, I don't want to know how Char had a romantic involvement with, what, 14-year-old Haman? She might have had a crush on him, but Char, as demonstrated with the completely "safe" Reccoa, shies away from romance even when it's thrown at him.

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Re: UC Questions

Post by G-Slayer » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:08 am

And in CDA he distinctly mentions that ... ing gift".

Char says both things in the TV show: "Garma, I'm sending your sister to join you. Consider this my farewell present."
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Re: UC Questions

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:14 am

Black Knight wrote:Personally, I don't want to know how Char had a romantic involvement with, what, 14-year-old Haman? She might have had a crush on him, but Char, as demonstrated with the completely "safe" Reccoa, shies away from romance even when it's thrown at him.
What about that picture that Kamille saw in her head of a younger, much happier Haman hugging Sunglasses Char? I think he might have even been smiling in that one.

I also haz more questions. And they are:

1. What might have happened if the Federation had lost the battle of A Boa Qu?

2. What would have happened if Lalah had survived her attempt to shield Char from Gundam?
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