The Frost Brothers motivation

The place to discuss anything relating to anime or manga.
Post Reply
Zeino
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:39 pm

The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Zeino » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:36 pm

Is it just me or is the Frost Brothers motivation for being evil and wanting to kill everybody really stupid? They spend most of Gundam X being an enigma and then in the next to last episode, it's reveled they want to destroy the world because they didn't get special treatment by the NUNE and were ignored for being only pseudo-Newtypes and not the real deal. I mean even to compared to the other Gundam villains motivations for doing what they do, It still comes across as incredibly petty. At least, Master Asia and Rau had understandable reasons for wanting to wipe out humanity.
Last edited by Zeino on Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Mu La Flaga
Posts: 1437
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:06 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Mu La Flaga » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:09 pm

In a world that gives recognition to people with such abilities yet UNE considered them Catergory F's or failures.
Wouldn't you be ticked off also?

I mean they have the barely any newtype abilities but they still utilize them in their plan to show the world what catergory F newtypes can do.

I mean they became tired of being branded a certain way by both main factions in their world.

User avatar
Destiny_Gundam
Posts: 5100
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:36 pm
Location: Canada, eh.
Contact:

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:25 pm

Zeino wrote:Is it just me or is the Frost Brothers motivation for being evil and wanting to kill everybody really stupid? They spend most of Gundam X being an enigma and then in the next to last episode, it's reveled they want to destroy the world because they didn't get special treatment by the NEUN and were ignored for being only pseudo-Newtypes and not the real deal. I mean even to compared to the other Gundam villains motivations for doing what they do, It still comes across as incredibly petty. At least, Master Asia and Rau had understandable reasons for wanting to wipe out humanity.
You're absolutely right. They want the world to burn because it had wronged them. Their motives are petty, narrow minded, and selfish.

Ya know, evil.

Suitable motivation for villains, if you ask me.
"In the end, the world doesn't really need a Superman... Just a brave one."

User avatar
LightningCount
Posts: 919
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:02 pm

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by LightningCount » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:05 am

Well, doesn't this fit well into the narrative that the story is trying to tell and make them the perfect villains for this universe? The story is about the value of how humans relate to one another. And if you think about it, the UNE and SRA were quite petty and narrow-minded in their views, too. Each coveted Newtypes obsessively, believing they were the ultimate weapon and solution to the world's problems. And yet, in spite of that obsession and desire to elevate/promote those with extraordinary abilities, the Frosts, who had some abilities in that area, were denied that elevation because they didn't have the specific ability that was desired. Talk about splitting hairs ala Dr. Seuss' Sneetches.

While not as radical or big picture in mindset or execution, they're very much proto-Raus, in that they are doling out judgment on those who are obsessed with the destructive nature of humanity (through the supernatural abilities of the Newtype). And what better way to do it than with a pseudo-Newtype ability of bonded minds that they prove is more valuable combat-wise/destruction-wise than the UNE expected.

Also, I think the nature of their objective was hinted pretty strongly as early as the Card Player episodes, and maybe even earlier around the time of the Double X's reveal when they took out Aimzat. I found the Frosts to be lovable villains. I do wish they had been given more victories during the course of the series, however, to make them more intimidating. Their greatest victories came in their manipulations versus the battlefield. But still, quite memorable in the Gundam pantheon for the way they slickly maneuver the changing world. They have some great dialogue, too. I wonder if they were an influence on Outlaw Star's McDougal brothers, or if they were just based on an older anime concept of enemy bros like the Toguro brothers from Yu Yu Hakkusho.
My Mecha/Scifi Novels: https://www.goodreads.com/series/168677 ... -war-arm-x
"May you rest in peace, the betrayed and outraged Milliardo Peacecraft."
Most-Wanted Gundam Anime: Episode Zero, Blue Destiny, Rise from the Ashes, Crossbone

User avatar
G-Slayer
Posts: 644
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:40 pm
Location: In the fridge, behind the mayonnaise, next to the ketchup, and to the left of the coleslaw.
Contact:

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by G-Slayer » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:05 am

At least, Master Asia and Rau had understandable reasons for wanting to wipe out humanity.
Didn't Rau try wiping out humanity because his dad never accepted him as his son?
"That's it! I'll never Gundam the pilot again, Bright!"--Amuro Ray

My YouTube Channel!

My Photobucket Album!

My Gunpla Blog!

Imperial
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:52 pm
Location: Athens, GA
Contact:

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Imperial » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:58 am

Mu's father had Rau created to be the perfect son after being less than impressed with his blood relation. I imagine his feelings toward Rau were just the opposite.

However, his status as a clone meant he would endure a shortened, immensely painful life in a world rife with corruption and warfare. He thought that only a truly twisted species could spawn himself and those that had created him. Rau thought the best way to handle this was to wipe the human stain from the universe once and for all.
This space for rent

User avatar
Chris
Administrator
Posts: 4589
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Chris » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:15 am

Zeino wrote:At least, Master Asia and Rau had understandable reasons for wanting to wipe out humanity.
How is Rau any better? He's angry at the world and wants to watch it burn. The whole point of Gundam X was that both Earth and the colonies were obsessed with the concept of the Newtype, but for different reasons. Earth viewed Newtypes as weapons to use in battle, and the colonies elevated them to a level of almost religious worship. The Frosts were angry that the world was so obsessed with Newtypes that it overlooked people like them who had different special abilities. If anything, their motive makes a lot more sense than Rau's.

User avatar
AmuroNT1
Posts: 3691
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:41 am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Contact:

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by AmuroNT1 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:39 am

What makes matters worse is that the Frosts' abilities - instantaneous mental communication - would be highly valued by any sane military force. However, both the UNE and SRA were obsessed with Newtypes, so they couldn't see what was right in front of them (even after attempts at Man-Made Newtypes developed problems like Carris' Synapse Syndrome).
Sakuya: "Whatever. Stop lying and give up your schemes, now."
Yukari: (Which lies and schemes are she talking about? It's hard to keep track of them all...)

-Touhou 07.5 ~ Immaterial and Missing Power

User avatar
Mu La Flaga
Posts: 1437
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:06 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Mu La Flaga » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:26 am

And in the cases of some newtypes like Lancerow and Jamill their powers practically burnt out from feedback or just the events of the last war and all.

It did end up pretty bad for alot of people, even Tifa to her own extent was sought after by both major armies.
Last edited by Mu La Flaga on Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
InjuredPelican
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:43 pm
Location: United States of Ameria

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by InjuredPelican » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:58 pm

With how torn apart the world was in X, and the great evils still being committed, I'm surprised more people didn't want to finish the job that the mass colony drops started. The Frosts are selfish and petty, but so are most villains in Gundam and real life. Rejection and pain can repaint your view of the world quite thoroughly if you let them.
"And so I fight for the Moonrace. However, I am also fighting for the Earthrace! I fight against anyone who does not cherish their people's lives! No matter who they are, I will fight against them!"
-Loran Cehack

User avatar
Zechs Merquise
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:04 am

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Zechs Merquise » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:26 pm

It felt a little deeper to me, they wanted to be needed, it seemed like they were trying to prove how useful they were, by making the Federation regret they never used them and gave them the status they felt they deserved as newtypes within the military.
Currently Playing:Super Robot Wars J
Currently Watching: Ideon

User avatar
Rondo Mina Sahaku
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:47 pm
Location: Dacula, Georgia

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Rondo Mina Sahaku » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:31 am

G-Slayer wrote:Didn't Rau try wiping out humanity because his dad never accepted him as his son?
It was actually Mwu that was rejected by Al da Fllaga, with Rau being the clone created from Al to replace Mwu as heir to the family. As for Rau's motivations, he basically saw himself (as a clone) as being the pinnacle of humanity's self-destructive arrogance, and simply wanted to be the one to usher the human race to what he saw as its inevitable fate. His goal was to basically overindulge what he saw as our unquenchable lust for violence by egging on an ethnic conflict (of a sort) rooted in genetic manipulation until it became less of a war and more of a mutual bid for genocide.

Really, I think it works. I also think the Frost brothers' motivations work. People don't always have deep, complex meanings behind their actions. Sometimes people do things for very simple reasons, be they acts of great good or great evil. The Frost brothers and Rau were all nihilists who either felt snubbed by the world or delusionally believed themselves to be in a position above other people. These sort of ideas have influenced real-life behavior to several degrees of severity, so it's not outside the realm of plausibility for fictional antagonists, either.

User avatar
Mu La Flaga
Posts: 1437
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:06 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Mu La Flaga » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:15 am

Chris wrote:
Zeino wrote:At least, Master Asia and Rau had understandable reasons for wanting to wipe out humanity.
How is Rau any better? He's angry at the world and wants to watch it burn. The whole point of Gundam X was that both Earth and the colonies were obsessed with the concept of the Newtype, but for different reasons. Earth viewed Newtypes as weapons to use in battle, and the colonies elevated them to a level of almost religious worship. The Frosts were angry that the world was so obsessed with Newtypes that it overlooked people like them who had different special abilities. If anything, their motive makes a lot more sense than Rau's.
Just to bring up this point, so you don't think Rau ever had a point to make?
To make the world pay for the path it had been going on?
That the world and it's own desires, products of genetic engineering would produce more people like him.
I mean cloning was made illegal in CE, but they made Rau and Rey out of Al's DNA.

What did it produce?,a flawed and supposedly superior copy of himself in essence.
It's what Al wanted, what he wanted for an heir.

What did Rau get out of it?
A lifetime of pain needing medication for his shortened telemeres.

I mean the simple point is, some things maybe illegal, but money is also a powerful motivator for some individuals.

By wiping out humanity, he just wanted to bring an end to it all and laugh as both sides naturals and co-ordinators slaughter each other.
Just because the 2 sides couldn't learn to live along side and tolerate each other, the exact kind of thing Blue Cosmos started up.
"For the sake of a Blue and Pure world"

Co-ordinators mostly inhabit space in colonies and want Earth for themselves.
That pretty much sums up the whole cycle of the war in CE.
And if you wanted you could even point in the direction of X Astray adding more on to it with Prayer and Cannard.

Also just to add it on, I think the thing with Rau also was he kept his intentions and all hidden until the Mendel colony skirmish remminded him of his past.
But then again he never showed reguards for some of his soldiers, that if they died it was the result of the war as a soidier.

User avatar
Chris
Administrator
Posts: 4589
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Chris » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:51 am

Mu La Flaga wrote:snip
No, I really don't think Rau has anything to say. He's just a butthurt clone who wants to watch the world burn and thinks for whatever reason that he's the only one somehow qualified to pass judgment on humanity. I'm not saying the Frost brothers have the best motives as far as Gundam villains go, but it's more understandable and more fleshed out than the last minute revelation of Rau's motives.

User avatar
Mu La Flaga
Posts: 1437
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:06 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Mu La Flaga » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:16 am

And all I shall say simply is, we never knew much about Rau until later, he was always an enigma mostly.

He didn't really express his opinions much.
So I just think he concealed them better, he bided his time until he had a genuine chance to mannipulate sides, such as passing on info to the Alliance and even later releasing Flay with the N-Jammer Canceler info on that disk.

Rau made something of a point that humans in some cases are very mannipulative to meet their own desires and needs, Al's was an appropriate heir in Rau, because it wasn't going to be found in Mu.
Dr Hibiki created the clones for him to fund his research, money was one of those big factors.

I mean in essence the Frost Brothers I liked equally, but their reasons were flawed, they were hurt for how they were branded, even though they had skills compared to normal people.

Zeino
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:39 pm

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Zeino » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:59 pm

Chris wrote:No, I really don't think Rau has anything to say. He's just a butthurt clone who wants to watch the world burn and thinks for whatever reason that he's the only one somehow qualified to pass judgment on humanity.
So you've never really stop to ever consider the idea that humanity is inherently evil, selfish and corrupt and will never learn from it's mistakes? And such deserve to be destroyed (or dominated by "morally superior beings" as in the case of Ribbons Almark) Because that where Rau was coming from. He's not alone in that reguard as there are quite a few other anime/manga villains who feel that way as well. Ribbons and his minions, The Devil Gundam, Sensui from Yu Yu Hakusho, Knives and Legato from Trigun, The main villains of both versions of Fullmetal Alchemist, The Anti-Spiral from Gurren Lagann The Gaizok from Tomino's 70's super robot series Zambot 3, The Inspectors and Einst of Super Robot Wars etc.

User avatar
Chris
Administrator
Posts: 4589
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Chris » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:06 pm

Zeino wrote:So you've never really stop to ever consider the idea that humanity is inherently evil, selfish and corrupt and will never learn from it's mistakes? And such deserve to be destroyed (or dominated by "morally superior being"s as in the case of Ribbons Almark) Because that where Rau was coming from. He's not alone in that reguard as there are quite a few other anime/manga villains who feel that way as well. Ribbons and his minions, The Devil Gundam, Sensui from Yu Yu Hakusho, Knives and Legato from Trigun, The main villains of both versions of Fullmetal Alchemist, The Anti-Spiral from Gurren Lagann The Gaizok from Tomino's 70's super robot series Zambot 3, The Inspectors and Einst of Super Robot Wars etc.
No, I never have thought about it because there's nothing at all to think about. Humanity is evil, selfish and corrupt? Of course. But to hear Rau talk about it, he makes it seem like it's some shocking revelation. And no matter how many other villains in other anime may have similar ideas, it doesn't change that I think that Rau's motivation is petty, selfish and in the end pointless.

User avatar
Arbiter GUNDAM
Posts: 2912
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:36 pm
Location: Cruisin' the Universe w/Spaceman Spiff!!!
Contact:

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:08 pm

Plus it would have been nice to know Rau's "shocking revelations" much sooner. In contrast by about episode 10 or so of MSG, we know that Char actually wants revenge on the Zabis. We don't find out about Rau's "shocking revelations" until the last few episodes.
I can fly if I ride the wind! Gori gori!

--Freyja Wion

User avatar
Kuruni
Posts: 2995
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:43 am
Location: sitting next to a yandere loli
Contact:

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Kuruni » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:49 pm

And while it come from crossover, Amuro made good point in SRW series whenever he come across this type of villain (including Rau in Alpha 3). Actually, I think similar message got deliver by other series as well, just not as often as "humans are bastards" one.

Yes, humanity are evil, selfish and corrupt, but you're ignoring our good side (as Starman told his future successor, simply because you have darkness in your heart doesn't mean you have to abandon goodness). Nobody known if humanity will destroy themselves or get over it, no single individual has right to pass judgement on us. While those antagonists may have point, to thinking that they are above other to pass judgement on humanity simply mean they are just egoist, selfish, and ignorant.
My girlfriend was a loli.

User avatar
Cybaster
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:28 pm
Location: SANDWIIIIIIIIIIIIIICH!!! *shakes fist*

Re: The Frost Brothers motivation

Post by Cybaster » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:35 pm

In the most basic sense, the Frost Brothers' motives were otherwise very simple. They're out to rule the Earth Sphere as human Gods --- which are basically what they and almost everyone else around them see Newtypes to be.

In the GX world, Newtypes have been hyped to unbelievable levels, although the exact views differ depending on which side of the Seventh Space War you were on. To the SRA, Newtypes were the next evolution, psychic Gods among insects that deserve to rule over the Earth Sphere as the new intelligentsia/aristocracy; to the UNE, Newtypes were a plague upon Humanity and an extremely dangerous threat (at least to the point where equally dangerous weapons such as the Gundam Belphagor had to be developed to counter them) to their status quo and rightful heritage that must be brought to heel, enslaved by the Oldtype elite for the good of true Humankind. To both sides, regardless, Newtypes were Godlike. The average civilian during the 7th Space War either learned to fear Newtypes, or want to be them. Even into the After War era, that reputation held even as most surviving Newtypes died off one by one (leaving Tiffa as one of the sole surviving 'true' Newtypes in the entire Earth Sphere by A.W. 0015) or lost their powers (as Jamil and Lancerow did).

Then you have the Frost Brothers, who have been analyzed as little more than 'Category-F' by the New Earth Federation --- so weak, it's insubstantial and completely unexploitable, almost a complete joke in itself. To Shagia and Olba, however, that classification was a double slap to their faces. Not only were they stepped on by the New Earth Federation higher-ups for not being born to everyone's expectations of a true Newtype, they were also stripped of and denied the virtual 'Godhood' that they felt they deserved by 'Oldtypes' who only see worth through power. The SRA wouldn't have had been any better; The Frost Brothers were born on Earth, so there was no avenue for them either in space. Even Tiffa, who herself was born on Earth but was otherwise a genuine Newtype, wasn't safe from that denial. So in that vein, the Frost Brothers would seek Newtypes under New UNE orders but kill them as they came across them (since the UNE denied the Frost Brothers their deserved 'Godhood', the Frost Brothers would in turn deny the UNE's 'true Gods' the right to exist in turn), but it wasn't enough. They knew that even if they killed off every single Newtype in the Earth Sphere, they would never be accepted as true Newtypes themselves. The Frost Brothers had to prove to the entire Earth Sphere that they were true Newtypes and true human Gods.

And the best means to prove that to the general populace? The Satellite Cannon. Hence why the Frost Brothers claimed the Final Battle to be 'the war they wanted' --- it gave them the chance to prove themselves true Newtypes and ascend to the Godhood denied them by the New UNE. To do that, though, the higher-ups of both the New UNE and SRA had to die --- Saidel had to die because the people would argue the Frost Brothers were not born in space and hence not true Newtypes; Bloodman had to die because if he wasn't removed, he could prove to the people the Frost Brothers were really Category-F failures; and Garrod and Tiffa had to die because not only were they standing in the Frost Brothers' way, they risked Tiffa being revered in the same way instead of them if they didn't kill her. Only with their deaths would the otherwise-ignorant populace finally be forced to agree to what the Frost Brothers tried to present themselves as.
Don't throw the baton, you jacka**!!!

Post Reply