In Defense of Destiny

[jabman025]

Hey everyone, Jabman025 here also known as the Defender of Destiny. Recently Neo (co-host of Gundamn) challenged me to live up to my title and defend some Gundam Seed Destiny. I have accepted said challenge and this is where I will do it.

First, let me say what I think of the series in general. I believe that Gundam Seed Destiny is a good series with the worst final episode in any Gundam series ever made. I am not going to try to defend the final episode of the series because even I can’t make that episode look good. It was a train wreck, I can help but think that someone said “look we only have one episode left, let’s just try to tie up as many loose ends as possible in 23 minutes regardless if it makes sense or not. I think some of these issues were fixed in the Final plus version of the episode but it was really an attempt to “put lipstick on a pig”.

Now I will defend some of the bigger criticisms of the show.

First would be the use of flashbacks and clip shows. Yes Gundam Seed Destiny does over use them. But virtually every gundam show over uses scenes to save time and/or money. The only 2 gundam shows to not use a clip show were MSG and Zeta Gundam, and both of these shows were guilty of the “Scooby Do” trick. This occurred when the same background is used over and over again or when the exact same launching sequence is used for every episode. It is unfair to lay the reuse of scenes squarely at GSD’s feet when almost all gundam show has done the same.

Second would be the “ruining” of some characters. The most often used example of this is Cagalli. I argue that Cagalli didn’t change from the time of her appearance in Seed through most of Destiny. She was not a leader. She followed whoever was in front of her. She followed her father despite disagreeing with him. She followed her bodyguard despite her own wishes. She followed Captain Ramius, when she had no reason to do so. She even followed Kira after he delivered the “Bright Slap”. By the time of Destiny she was the leader of Orb and was following Athrun. When he left she started following Seiran. By the end of Destiny she does become a competent leader but only after Orb is nearly destroyed…..again.

Another criticism is that of the shifting main character between Kira and Shin. I argue that the main character for all of Seed Destiny, and most of Seed was in fact Athrun. Kira represents the peaceful opposition to war (a common theme in gundam) while Shin represents the abolition of war through power and might. Essentially meaning to win a war and end it quickly you must over whelm your enemy and get the war over as soon as possible. Athrun is the pivot between the two. He says as much to Kira in the early part of the series saying he is just not sure what to do. Durandal eventually convinces him to join the cause through the use of his friends from ZAFT, and like Shin he attempts to destroy war by force. However after seeing what Durandal did to Kira and the crew of the Archangel and after seeing the Legend and Destiny Gundams it becomes clear that Durandal does not want to use power to destroy war, but to conquer it.

The next criticism I will tackle is that of the resurrection of Mu La Flaga. Many people claim this was handled poorly and he should have been a clone/twin/genetically-engineered copy. Mostly this is argued because it would have made for more interesting character interaction. I would argue that things were just fine as is. Mu as Neo Lorrnoke asks the question of what makes you, you. Is it your physical body and person, or is it your memories and life experiences. Mu lost all of his memories, which was the sacrifice he made to live again. That being said in the last episode he had a “days of our lives” moment where he remembered everything and screwed up his storyline but like I said I’m not going to defend that last episode.

Finally I will tackle my favorite part of the show that seems to get hit so hard with criticism, The Destiny Plan. The most often heard bashing of this is that it is just flat out stupid. I disagree; I believe that it is genius in its control over people. In this plan every person ever born will be given the optimum career for his or her genes. This is the ultimate form of government control. This is the end of free will. The government will tell you what to do from the moment you are born. Durandall also made it clear when he assassinated the Federation president, that this plan was not optional. If Durnadall’s plan had work he would sit atop mankind deifying Destiny to be with the woman he loved (a woman that his genes told him he could not have) while the rest of mankind bowed to it. He had set up everything in advance for this plan. He would cripple the Federation with a war and a colony drop. He would destroy blue cosmos with the help of the depleted Federation. He would kill the Ultimate Coordinator. He would be unstoppable. Unfortunately he only got 2 out of the 3. When he saw Kira was alive, he knew he was screwed. That is why he sat in that chair and waited to die.

Well I think I have ranted on long enough. If anyone else has something they want to complain about this show I will do my best to defend Destiny again.

Thanks for reading and now I prepare for the waves of hate….

[Chris]

I figured this would show up.

1. On the issue of animation, you make false comparisons to try to make DESTINY look better. First, not a big deal, but the only Gundam shows to not have clip episodes were MSG, Zeta and X. And even though most Gundam series do have a clip show, it's nowhere near as many as SEED or DESTINY. Stock footage is something every robot show does, but DESTINY takes it to criminal lengths. Aside from just straight up stock footage, they take footage of suits doing something and then slightly change it so that it's other suits doing the same thing. There are countless examples of this, like Providence/Legend/Akatsuki using recycled DRAGOON footage, or in both shows, two Gundams shooting and spinning around each other. Let's not forget the times they were too lazy to cover this up and SF magically turns into Freedom, or Impulse becomes Strike. And no other Gundam show has a ridiculous over reliance on flashbacks like either SEED or DESTINY.

2. But Cagalli was ruined by DESTINY. In SEED, as loudmouthed and annoying as she could be, at least she stood up for things. For most of DESTINY, she's just a useless crying flesh bag until ZAFT attacks Orb, and then she sits out the rest of the show on the bleachers.

3. I could agree with this at least in SEED, but unfortunately Athrun is also a waste in DESTINY, going through pretty much the same character arc he did in SEED of not knowing what he was fighting for, except whinier.

4. Look, there's just no way you can explain Mu's resurrection. He heroically sacrificed himself to save the Archangel, and that's completely undone by his resurrection. The SEED SE removed his helmet from the shot of the Strike's remains, as if that can explain how a guy survives a Gundam being destroyed by a cannon that can take down ships, and all he has to show for it is a scar. There was no thematic purpose in bringing him back, and they didn't even bother trying with an explanation. At least when they did the same thing with Andy it was more believable, and he paid some physical consequences for his resurrection.

5. But it is a stupid plan. If you want to have total government control over the world, Durandal pretty much had the entire world eating out of his hands before he started up this Destiny Plan nonsense and the notion that you could predict people's jobs from their DNA. In short, there was no reason for him to bother. He already had almost the entire world under his control after killing Djibril, and he could've continued by just branding Kira/Lacus/Archangel/Orb as terrorists sympathizing with Logos. The enthusiastic and blind world would've believed him.

[TetraVaal]

I've never seen a single second of Gundam Seed Destiny, outside of a couple trailers. However, I have read a bunch of criticism in regards to the show... so much in fact, that you'd be lead to believe that Michael Bay organized the show or something.

[jabman025]

I had feeling Chris would be the first one to fight me on this one...

1. Okay I did miss X on that one but it got canceled before the clip show could make an apperance, my bad. Your still bashing to hard on this fact. I will admit that Destiny is bad about reusing footage, maybe the worst of them all. But compalining about the Dragoons is complaing about an attack. Almost everytime MK II, Wing, Wing Zero, RX 78-2, ect.... fires a weapon its the same damn fottage from before. The only place you don't see this is in movies or OVA like 08th MS Team or Char's Counterattack, because in general they are shorter and have better animation.

2. Cagalli was a whiney little pain in the but in Seed, she remained a whiney little pain in the but in Destiny. The only differance is that in Destiny she was in over her head.

3. Athrun's arc in Seed never ended, he was conflicted about his actions right up to the end of Seed. If he had actually killed his psychotic father that may have brought him to his ultimate choice. But by the time he arrived someone else had beaten him to it.

4. Gundam death rule #1, if you don't see the body, he is not dead.

5. Earth was and would always be warry of Cordinators, when he presented the Destiny plan he was met with questions not acceptance. They never fully trusted him. He also needed to get control before Lacus could. He himself admited he may be great at rallying the troops. But no one could speak to Cordinators like "Lacus Clyne"

[TetraVaal]

Okay I did miss X on that one but it got canceled before the clip show could make an apperance, my bad.

I'm only 10 episodes into X, but if there wasn't a clip show through 38 episodes of a series, what makes you think there'd be one in the last 12?

[Chris]

1. Okay I did miss X on that one but it got canceled before the clip show could make an apperance, my bad. Your still bashing to hard on this fact. I will admit that Destiny is bad about reusing footage, maybe the worst of them all. But compalining about the Dragoons is complaing about an attack. Almost everytime MK II, Wing, Wing Zero, RX 78-2, ect.... fires a weapon its the same damn fottage from before. The only place you don't see this is in movies or OVA like 08th MS Team or Char's Counterattack, because in general they are shorter and have better animation.

I don't think you get what I'm saying. None of your examples apply. I'm talking about footage of one suit doing something modified to make it look like new footage of another suit doing the same thing. When Rey fights the Exus early on, the footage of him shooting its weapon pods is identical to the Freedom shooting the DRAGOONs of Providence, except that the suits have been changed. Stock footage is fine to a degree, but no other Gundam show has ever done this suit swapping like SEED and DESTINY.

2. Cagalli was a whiney little pain in the but in Seed, she remained a whiney little pain in the but in Destiny. The only differance is that in Destiny she was in over her head.

This isn't really a response to my point, so nothing more to say here.

3. Athrun's arc in Seed never ended, he was conflicted about his actions right up to the end of Seed. If he had actually killed his psychotic father that may have brought him to his ultimate choice. But by the time he arrived someone else had beaten him to it.

But Athrun's arc DID end in SEED. He realized that blindly believing the things that he was told was wrong, even if it came from his father. He learned that both the Earth and ZAFT governments were extremes, and he fought on his own in the name of justice (no pun intended). Then DESTINY comes along and it's as though he's completely forgotten all of that, and the first thing he does is join ZAFT and blindly listens to what Durandal says until he learns again not to blindly trust politicians. I suppose that's better than Kira, who has no character development at all in DESTINY, but it's still poor writing to just rehash the past.

4. Gundam death rule #1, if you don't see the body, he is not dead.

Please, this is weak and you know it. I don't even see why you're trying to argue in favor of something that has no defense. He was dead in SEED - there can be no debate about this. There was no body left to see - just a floating helmet and presumably some bits of flesh. Removing a helmet does not at all explain a man surviving an energy blast that completely destroys a mobile suit and leaves it in tiny pieces. This isn't just an ambiguous death where someone seems to die and returns later - he was very clearly dead, and this was a retcon, just like Andy.

5. Earth was and would always be warry of Cordinators, when he presented the Destiny plan he was met with questions not acceptance. They never fully trusted him. He also needed to get control before Lacus could. He himself admited he may be great at rallying the troops. But no one could speak to Cordinators like "Lacus Clyne"

For all that wariness, and even with ZAFT being blamed for Break the World, Naturals were more than happy to rise up and fight when Durandal revealed the existence of Logos. You even had multiple Alliance fleets defecting to ZAFT to help attack Heaven's Base. He had almost the entire world behind him, and instead of manipulating that goodwill to accomplish his goals, he instantly decided to become a bad movie villain by saying "Believe in my weird genetic plan, or I'll blast your country out of existence!" He literally snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, because he could've won by using his smooth talking political skills rather than the Destiny Plan.

[Dark Duel]

I don't even see why you're trying to argue in favor of something that has no defense. He was dead in SEED - there can be no debate about this. There was no body left to see - just a floating helmet and presumably some bits of flesh. Removing a helmet does not at all explain a man surviving an energy blast that completely destroys a mobile suit and leaves it in tiny pieces.

And even I'm puzzled at how a helmet could possibly have survived the complete vaporization of the mobile suit by an antimatter-derived particle weapon. So if anything, the removal of the helmet strengthens rather than weakens the perception of Mwu's death.

[AmuroNT1]

4. Gundam death rule #1, if you don't see the body, he is not dead.

All due respect, this is just not a good defense for Flaga's return, or really any ludicrous return of a fictional character. "We never found the body" is the epitome of cop-out when it comes to explaining a character's death, bar none (well, except maybe "I can see their parachutes!"). It does nothing whatsoever to explain away the fact that the man survived a direct hit from an antimatter cannon designed with the explicit intent of destroying battleships in one shot. I don't care that he had a shield with beam coating; antimatter is not the same thing as a particle beam.

The biggest annoyance with Flaga's return is the fact that it dumps all over a meaningful and moving character death simply for the sake of having a "cool adult character" rejoin the cast. To quote Lewis "Linkara" Lovhaug, "If you really must kill a character, make sure it is their crowning moment of awesome." Flaga sacrificed himself to protect the woman he loved from certain death, and in doing so helped turn the tide of the Archangel's fight with the Dominion. I would say that qualifies as awesome.

Of course, there's another part of Flaga's resurrection that always bothered me and the people I hang out with: namely, the fact that it completely whitewashes all the terrible stuff he did as Neo Roanoke. I really don't want to get into a debate about the morality of Destiny's cast (on EITHER side), but IMO it makes Kira and Co. look extremely shallow and selfish, as if what Flaga did to other people is completely immaterial, because he's their friend and that's all that matters. And for the record, I don't accept the notion that "Oh, it's okay because Neo Roanoke did all that stuff, not Mu la Flaga"; Mu IS Neo, and there was no indication that he'd been brainwashed into being a bloodthirsty monster. As Neo he acted pretty much exactly like he did as Mu, just more ruthless. Saying "It was Neo, not Mu" is like saying "Char killed Kycilia, not Quattro."

I know Destiny is really a dead horse, and I myself advocate just moving on since griping about it won't change the fact that it went poorly. I just wanted to respond to this point since I felt it was very weak. I shall now quietly retire from this topic.

[Strike Zero]

Another criticism is that of the shifting main character between Kira and Shin. I argue that the main character for all of Seed Destiny, and most of Seed was in fact Athrun.

Um... no.

The very first episode of Destiny would disagree with you. Certainly, Athrun might have gotten the most screentime during the first twenty-two minutes of the series, but the prologue set up Shinn as the key character to explore with issues to resolve. Athrun had none of this after the conclusion of SEED.

The argument that his character never reached a resolution because he never had to make the choice to kill is father doesn't hold any water either; straight after finding him dying, Patrick asks Athrun to finish what he was trying to accomplish and fire GENESIS. Athrun chooses to instead destroy it, acting in clear defiance of his father's will and following his own ideas as to what he believed was right. Taking the fact that he knew what it was he should be doing at the end of SEED, it follows that Athrun's indecisiveness in Destiny and the complete recycling of his "development" is nothing more than character derailment and poor writing.

[Chris]

Of course, there's another part of Flaga's resurrection that always bothered me and the people I hang out with: namely, the fact that it completely whitewashes all the terrible stuff he did as Neo Roanoke. I really don't want to get into a debate about the morality of Destiny's cast (on EITHER side), but IMO it makes Kira and Co. look extremely shallow and selfish, as if what Flaga did to other people is completely immaterial, because he's their friend and that's all that matters. And for the record, I don't accept the notion that "Oh, it's okay because Neo Roanoke did all that stuff, not Mu la Flaga"; Mu IS Neo, and there was no indication that he'd been brainwashed into being a bloodthirsty monster. As Neo he acted pretty much exactly like he did as Mu, just more ruthless. Saying "It was Neo, not Mu" is like saying "Char killed Kycilia, not Quattro."

In defense of DESTINY though, it's not at all a Char situation, even with the mask. Quattro was just an alias, not another set of memories. Neo constantly denied being Mu and expressed genuine surprise at these Archangel people all calling him Mu, until those memories started creeping back in. I might be misremembering, but I recall there being a part in the show, SE or a manga where Neo was shown inside the same brainwashing unit as the Extendeds. If that's the case, then no, Mu isn't really really responsible for the things Neo did, because his memories were suppressed and he was brainwashed to be a loyal Phantom Pain dog.

[jabman025]

Okay I'm gonna try to hit few points here.......the bashing is coming in fast and furious here.

To my point with Cagalli, alll I saying is that her character never changed in Seed, there was little to no evolution in her perception of the world despite being in multiple full scale wars. She still talks a big game to Shin, but does not have the strength back up her words, just like she did to Kira in Seed. She only changed her way when through her direct actions thosands of the citizens of Orb died.

As for Authrn, yes his perceptions did change. Yes he learned to think for himself and to not follow and ideal blindly in the breach. But he did not make an ultimate decision on what he should be fighting for. He said as much to Kira near the end of Seed. When break the world occured he realized there was no chance to avoid another war and he decided to fight to end the war as fast as possible, because he likes Durandall and his aproach, even if he doesn't fully trust him. But almost days after he leaves Orb is the Federation, and shortly there after Kira appers on the battlefeild to attempt to stop the battle. From Athrun's point of view all they are doing is prolonging a war that will kill more innocets.

Now for Mu La Flaga, your right Chris he was dead. The helmet was floating there and he took a cannon head on. Yet he is not the first to come back from certain death in Gundam. Judau's little sister, dead as a door nail....she came back. Shiro in 8th MS team, dead....came back. Zechs in wing, nuclear drive explosion in the face.....came back. Even in Seed Andy Waltfeld.....blow to kingdom come.....came back. Many of these people had to sacrifice something to come back from the dead, in Mu's case it was his memory.

[jabman025]

Almost forgot my Durandall argument, when he told the world about Logos yes he gained some trust, and yes some parts for the federation joined with ZAFT to "cut the pupptiers strings" but that doesn't make everyone one big happy family. Yes if Durandall wanted to he could have set himself up as one of the more powerful poloticans alive.......but he already was one. He didn't want to be a great world leader, he wanted to be THE world leader. He is not Char, Char wanted to change the world, he is closer to a member fo the Zabi famly. Durandall wanted to control the world. His plans for said world domination were planned out from the get go and only became more clear to Athrun after the "death" of Kira.

[Chris]

Now for Mu La Flaga, your right Chris he was dead. The helmet was floating there and he took a cannon head on. Yet he is not the first to come back from certain death in Gundam. Judau's little sister, dead as a door nail....she came back. Shiro in 8th MS team, dead....came back. Zechs in wing, nuclear drive explosion in the face.....came back. Even in Seed Andy Waltfeld.....blow to kingdom come.....came back. Many of these people had to sacrifice something to come back from the dead, in Mu's case it was his memory.

Dude, you keep bringing up irrelevant examples that have NOTHING in common to the situation. Leina was an ambiguous death at best, because she could've been taken out of the hut. Plus, they hinted at her return for awhile before showing her. She didn't appear out of the blue. Do I think it would've been better if she had actually died? Yes, but that's not the point.

Shiro and Zechs are similar ambiguous situations. Nowhere was it clearly stated that they were dead, only to have another anime come along and contradict that. Even SEED contradicted itself with Andy when Rau talked to Morassim about how unfortunate Andy's death was, but I presume there could be an explanation for that. Seriously, while some things here are just a matter of opinion, you're dead wrong on this. It is an absolute fact that he was dead, and no amount of twisting or explaining you do can ever justify his magical resurrection.

[jabman025]

no where is it cleary stated that Mu is dead either, the show ends to quickly for that. Hell Zechs had a gravestone saying he was dead....until Dorthy hints at a possible resurection.

I will agree with you on one point you made on an episode of Gundamn, both Seed and Seed Destiny were in desperate need of a epilogue episode to fix some of the problems the series had. Destiny kinda sorta got that with Final Plus....but like I said "lipstick on a pig"

[ShadowCell]

Okay I'm gonna try to hit few points here.......the bashing is coming in fast and furious here.

Nobody is "bashing" DESTINY. They're disagreeing with the argument you made that you claim defends DESTINY from criticism. There is a difference.

As for Authrn, yes his perceptions did change. Yes he learned to think for himself and to not follow and ideal blindly in the breach. But he did not make an ultimate decision on what he should be fighting for.

So what was his destroying GENESIS after his father asked him to fire it? Not all character issues have to be resolved by killing somebody.

Even SEED contradicted itself with Andy when Rau talked to Morassim about how unfortunate Andy's death was, but I presume there could be an explanation for that.

I believe ASTRAY accounts for that by having him get rescued by the Junk Guild or something, so ZAFT officers like Rau wouldn't necessarily know that he cheated death.

[Strike Zero]

no where is it cleary stated that Mu is dead either, the show ends to quickly for that.

Well, okay, sure. People in Gundam have been known to survive ridiculous explosions before. I suppose it is wholly plausible for Mu to have survived.

Without a helmet.

In space.

With no air.

Just in case you didn't catch on, that first line was supposed to be sarcastic.

[Chris]

Even SEED contradicted itself with Andy when Rau talked to Morassim about how unfortunate Andy's death was, but I presume there could be an explanation for that.

I believe ASTRAY accounts for that by having him get rescued by the Junk Guild or something, so ZAFT officers like Rau wouldn't necessarily know that he cheated death.

Yes, I know that DaCosta was hiding Andy in a capsule until the Junk Guild arrived, but that's ASTRAY cleaning up SEED's mess after the fact and later on. There was no doubt at the time that Andy was supposed to be dead, and we all know Fukuda admitted to resurrecting Andy because there weren't enough "cool adults" in the show and he liked the voice actor.

[jabman025]

okay guys calm down I know your just disagreeing with me. I was just having a little fun with the "bashing" comment. I know I am probably not going to convince many of you of my point of view. I'm just puting my 2 cents out there.

[Mr Bushido]

Regarding Mu, well we did see the Strike get hit by the positron cannon. It exploded. We see the debris of what's left of the Strike. I think that even if that broken floating helmet never existed in the TV show, Mu would still be dead since the Strike still blew up, like nothing was left except for the head. I don't recall ever seeing the body even intact, it was gone. So by that you can conclude that Mu was vaporized by the explosion.

[Dark Duel]

I find especially interesting the presence of the Strike's head in the wreckage, as it's something else that should not be there: The head was the first part to be visibly, on-screen, totally vaporized by the Dominion's positron blast.
A minor detail, but it still annoys me.

One point I forgot to address earlier:

I argue that the main character for all of Seed Destiny, and most of Seed was in fact Athrun.

No. I can understand why you would feel that way, but unfortunately that just isn't the case. Kira IS the main character of Seed. Athrun, for most of the series, is the conflicted rival character, but is undeniably an antagonist. Then in the final third, he's essentially Kira's sidekick.

Athrun in Destiny has no discernible impact on the plot - He's one of several characters that could be cut entirely out of the series without the overall story progression(such as it is) being affected in the slightest; The only difference would be that Shinn's opponent in the final battle would be someone else - like Kira.