In Defense of Destiny

[jabman025]

People act like Destiny kicked their dog or something.

the best example I have seen of this is PG Strike Freedom, people were absoultly livid about the choice of Strike Freedom as the next Perfect Grade. I never seen such a reaction to a model kit for pete's sake. The worst part is sentement spreads. I have met someone who have told me "My god you like Seed Destiny, what the hell is wrong with you?" I then asked him what he didn't like about it. He responded "Well I've never seen it but I heard its horrible!"

[Kuruni]

I find the idea that Destiny's resurrection of Mu somehow retroactively tainting Seed's ending hilarious. Regardless of what you think of Destiny, it doesn't change anything about Seed. You can watch Seed and appreciate Mu's final scene for what it is, and then watch Destiny and still appreciate it for what it is. The fact that he (retroactively) survived doesn't change the fact that he was willing to sacrifice him life, threw his mobile suit in harm's way fully expecting to die, and was awesome while doing it.

You do aware that the two events are relate, right? You can't take one event to seperate from other, unless you are willing to take it as seperate continuity. You have all the right to do that, but claiming that people who take it as one big picture are "funny" isn't nice.

[AmuroNT1]

People act like Destiny kicked their dog or something.

You know, I'd never actually thought of things that way. And now that you mention it, Destiny has a lot in common with a series that I happen to enjoy, Kamen Rider Decade. Both shows get trashed for not living up to promises that they never made to begin with, for "destroying" beloved characters, for just being something less than what they expected it to be when they heard it existed in the first place. I suppose it is kind of weird that I love the one and am really meh on the other.

[Mattokaiser]

I find the idea that Destiny's resurrection of Mu somehow retroactively tainting Seed's ending hilarious. Regardless of what you think of Destiny, it doesn't change anything about Seed. You can watch Seed and appreciate Mu's final scene for what it is, and then watch Destiny and still appreciate it for what it is. The fact that he (retroactively) survived doesn't change the fact that he was willing to sacrifice him life, threw his mobile suit in harm's way fully expecting to die, and was awesome while doing it.

You do aware that the two events are relate, right? You can't take one event to seperate from other, unless you are willing to take it as seperate continuity. You have all the right to do that, but claiming that people who take it as one big picture are "funny" isn't nice.

I completely agree with this. If you can look at them as seperate events then thats really good for you. However I treat it as an ongoing piece of story and so to have the character return to life after making such a huge sacrifice does sully the impact of the sacrifice. Though if you watch seed and ignore the existence of Destiny then Mwu's sacrifice still has the full impact, but once you put Destiny into the equation then the impact is lessened.

To me Destiny had potential not just because it was the sequal to Seed but because what it had been building in the earlier episodes offered so much potential. Honestly Destiny has one of the best opening scenes to a gundam series, it gets you right in the middle of the action of a major fight of the previous war and it sets up the main character's dilemma. However due to various reasons that have already been mentioned in this topic and many others, the flow of the show never kept up with the potential it had. That's not to say that Destiny didn't have some awesome moments, it's just that the awesome moments don't outweigh the moments that were wasted.

[Chris]

I find the idea that Destiny's resurrection of Mu somehow retroactively tainting Seed's ending hilarious.

Right, because it's so crazy to be disappointed by a sequel. No one in this thread has ever said that it retroactively "ruins" SEED. What it ruins is the point of his sacrifice. And while I can still watch SEED and enjoy his "death," unlike you I can't divorce from my mind the knowledge that DESTINY undoes it all. I guess there must be something wrong with me. What a silly fan I am.

Personally, I think that Destiny wasted a lot of its potential -- but I think that about most Gundam series, so who cares?

Honestly, I think this the lamest and most dishonest sort of way to defend something - acknowledge that a series has major problems, but only by attempting to bring down every related series and saying they're just as equally messed up. It's very weak, and don't expect many people to identify with this fringe position. And really, if you think most Gundam series are a waste of their potential, why do you watch them?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

You do aware that the two events are relate, right? You can't take one event to seperate from other, unless you are willing to take it as seperate continuity.

Though if you watch seed and ignore the existence of Destiny then Mwu's sacrifice still has the full impact, but once you put Destiny into the equation then the impact is lessened.

What it ruins is the point of his sacrifice. And while I can still watch SEED and enjoy his "death," unlike you I can't divorce from my mind the knowledge that DESTINY undoes it all.

How so? Again, it doesn't change anything about what Mu did. It was a deliberate sacrifice, a conscious decision to save the Archangel at the cost of his own life. The fact that he did, ultimately, end up surviving doesn't change the fact that he absolutely expected to die and made the decision anyway. It confuses me when people say that his survival makes his sacrifice less "real" in some way, because the actual outcome of his actions doesn't change anything about his character. As far as he knew, death was certain if he tried to save the Archangel -- but he did it anyway, and faced that death with the humor and awesomeness that we love him for in the first place.

I mean, if you want to be annoyed about retcons in general, or talk about how utterly preposterous it is for someone to survive being hit with an antimatter cannon, or how contrived it is that Mu would've been floating about 10 meters from the Archangel and yet he still somehow ended up in OMNI hands, then those are all legitimate complaints. But I fail to see how his survival somehow retroactively ruins his "death" scene from an emotional standpoint.

if you think most Gundam series are a waste of their potential, why do you watch them?

Because I enjoy them anyway, that was my point. Destiny had major issues, and if it hadn't had those problems, it would have been much better. That's certainly true. But it's also true that Destiny had its enjoyable moments, that there was good that went with the not-as-good. Trying to compare a series to some sort of perfected, ideal version of itself is what strikes me as "lame and dishonest" -- nothing's ever going to live up to that concept of perfection. Judge Destiny by what it was -- a series with problems that none the less had its moments of awesome -- not by some nebulous concept of "what it could have been". Saying that it didn't live up to its potential is another way of saying "it could have been better than it was". Of course it could have -- there's room for improvement in basically everything. But just because it could have been better doesn't mean that it was bad in the first place.

If you think Destiny is bad, then that's fine, it's your opinion. What I was trying to say is that people accentuate the negative so much with Destiny that listening to them, you get the impression that it was a steaming pile of 100% pure fail with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. That's the attitude I take issue with. Destiny had its ups and downs, like any other series (Gundam or otherwise). If you think the downs outweigh the ups and the series was bad on the whole, then that's a legitimate opinion. But people act like the downs annihilate the ups so that there's nothing at all good in any sense about Destiny ever, and anyone who likes any part of it for any reason is an obviously an idiot because they're too blind to see how obviously terrible it is in every respect. That's clearly not a reasonable stance to take, and yet it seems to be the majority opinion on the subject of Destiny.

[Mattokaiser]

How so? Again, it doesn't change anything about what Mu did. It was a deliberate sacrifice, a conscious decision to save the Archangel at the cost of his own life. The fact that he did, ultimately, end up surviving doesn't change the fact that he absolutely expected to die and made the decision anyway. It confuses me when people say that his survival makes his sacrifice less "real" in some way, because the actual outcome of his actions doesn't change anything about his character. As far as he knew, death was certain if he tried to save the Archangel -- but he did it anyway, and faced that death with the humor and awesomeness that we love him for in the first place.

I mean, if you want to be annoyed about retcons in general, or talk about how utterly preposterous it is for someone to survive being hit with an antimatter cannon, or how contrived it is that Mu would've been floating about 10 meters from the Archangel and yet he still somehow ended up in OMNI hands, then those are all legitimate complaints. But I fail to see how his survival somehow retroactively ruins his "death" scene from an emotional standpoint.

I know I'm not going to be convince you of my opinion on the matter. In the end it doesn't change what Mwu did however it does change how much an impact it has. Had he stayed dead it would have meant much more than if he had of lived through it. Actually even if he lived through it, it would have had more of an impact had they not homaged it in destiny with the Akatsuki and its plot armour. Destiny lessened the impact of the scene on two levels. Having Mwu survive was one because it came off as the cheap way out and really seed doesn't have enough awesome characters making ultimate sacrifices. Secondly having him then do the exact same thing with a machine that could block the Anti Matter cannon just made his original sacrifice seem like a joke. Honestly I'll always think of Mwu's sacrifice as one of the greatest scenes in Seed however in the grand scheme of CE it's not a major point anymore because Mwu didn't really sacrifice anything aside from temporary memory loss and his good looks.

[Chris]

On the issue of Mu (without having massive quotes): The problem is that his choice and the consequences of that choice are two separate things. He attempted to make the sacrifice, but he got a "Get out of jail free" card after the fact. Then DESTINY goes and has him doing the EXACT same thing with the exact same stock footage, save that Strike is swapped for Akatsuki. And this time nothing bad happens to him.

My problem with his resurrection is that it fits into a broader problem with DESTINY's writing: there are never any serious consequences or anything at stake for the good guys. Andy goes from being the nice antagonist to batting for the Lacus team and is never in any danger. Mu "dies" and magically returns. Kira and Athrun are both caught up in exploding mobile suits and suffer nary a scratch for it. There are multiple assassination attempts against Lacus, but they all fail. Cagalli cries uselessly on the battlefield, but no one even takes a shot at her. It's all summed up perfectly in that infamous "FLAWLESS VICTORY" shot from the end of episode 50. I'm not saying that they should've gone a Kill 'em All route, but DESTINY reeks of bad fanfic style writing where the heroes are always right and nothing ever goes badly for them.

And while many people hate DESTINY as a whole, it does have its moments. The first 12 episodes in my opinion are way better than the equivalent first 12 episodes of SEED, in terms of action, pacing and story development. There were other good points too, including the first Orb fleet battle, the famous Kira vs Shinn battle and the Lohengrin Gate. It also had a great soundtrack, which I listen to frequently. Yes, there are lots of people who just blindly hate DESTINY, but I won't ignore its good moments, even if they do come very sparingly much later on.

[jabman025]

let me just say that I agree with Chris on the issue of "fanfiction" style writing for destiny in the last episode. In reguards to Neo Lorenoke's true idenity. I loved the aspect of the debate we are having in this thread, and were having when Destiny was airing. Is Neo Mu, if so is it possible he survived, if so how, is there no way he could have survied, is he a clone? All those questions made for great debate. I would have been personally happy if that questions of "is Neo really Mu?" were left unanswered in Destiny. However in the final episode it was revealed in all of about 5 seconds that yes is he is Mu, and by the way all his memories have returned in a sudden flash. As I said before the whole Flawless victory bit in the last episode was a bit of a wreck, and reeked of a qiuck fix by the writers.

I really didn't have an issue with Akatsuki replicating the Strike in defending the Archangel, but everytime I see that suit I have to think why on earth was it sitting in an underground bunker during the first attack on Orb. They could have really used it then

[Kuruni]

Note that I said "from art perspective" in first reply. When I said it run the scene, it isn't really about the event, but about how the event was execute.

Lets use metaphor here, what if there is discovery ofmissing "Romio and Juliete"'s sequel by Shakespear - starting with the couple livng happily without explanation?

[Phoenix012]

Note that I said "from art perspective" in first reply. When I said it run the scene, it isn't really about the event, but about how the event was execute.

Lets use metaphor here, what if there is discovery ofmissing "Romio and Juliete"'s sequel by Shakespear - starting with the couple livng happily without explanation?

I don't think people are misunderstanding what you mean by "art perspective." I think the issue that is many people don't take Gundam seriously enough for those type of criticisms to have any effect of on their opinion of the show. From that perspective, the fact that Mu's resurrection offends any and all aesthetic sensibilities is meaningless, because it just doesn't matter. To you it does, but to others, it doesn't.


What I find far more interesting than what makes Destiny bad or good to people individually is what makes Destiny so strongly argued about by both sides for so long. There have been quite a few controversial anime series over the years but I don't think anything is going to match the internet furor over Destiny for a long, long time. You can ask 100 different people about why they hate Destiny and you will get 100 different (and even contradictory) responses. Many can't even produce a response at all. This is, obviously, human nature and not inherently surprising, but the spread and scope of these responses is astonishing. MechaTalk has a largely mature, courteous userbase that has generally reasonable opinions for both sides. I myself, despite enjoying the series a lot, actually agree with much of the criticisms brought up against it in this (and other) threads. But venture to some other forums (GameFAQS, seed-forum, etc.) and holy zoinks, people are acting like it either murdered their family or is a shining beacon of awesome that all anime forever shall be judged by. Logic and Reason fly out the window and arguments come from strong emotions that I don't understand at all. Like all shows, Destiny has good things and bad things, and normally an individual's personal weights for the various aspects of an anime is what decides whether they like it or not. But even here on Mechatalk I still get the sense that there is something about Destiny that rolls all that up in a ball and punts it into the next century. I myself am not immune to it, since I agree with all the same arguments that most people claim to be their reason for disliking the show, and yet still like it.

TL;DR version: I think the individual merits and flaws of Destiny have been discussed to death (I'm aware that part of the reason these discussion keep coming up is because of new members, I'm not disparaging that). But I think if someone's been around for long enough and they still don't understand why some people can have a different opinion, than they simply don't care to know. I just want to know why the series is so polarizing.

[jabman025]

I would just like to respond to something Phoeinx012 said about some fans holding up this show as a becaon of awesomeness, I know you didn't name names but I just want to state I am not one of them.

I think Destiny was a good show, and I really enjoyed watching it. I do not however think it even belongs in my top 5 favorite gundam shows. It had its flaws, I won't deny it. What I am "defending" destiny from are the people who seem to think that destiny was the worst show in the history of gundam and anime in general. I simply think that the show is unfairly attacked by people who hate it for either unfound or overblown reasons, and when all is said and done the gundam franchise is better off with Destiny than it would be without it.

[Phoenix012]

No I was not referring to you or anyone else in this thread when I was describing the extreme sort of reactions I've seen. I was referring to other much less moderated communities.

[zerogradius]

Seed revitalized the Gundam franchise since it was in decline in the post Wing era. As such, a lot was expected out of its predecessor, Destiny. However, when it proved to be infavorable in the eye of many for various reasons, a lot of backlash came its way. If ZZ had premiered in current times after the majesty that was Zeta, it would have received similar heat, for the first half of it, at least.

Fortunatlely, with Gundam 00 being seen as more favorable, the hate will die down, expecially as new series are created.

[Koshernova]

Seed revitalized the Gundam franchise since it was in decline in the post Wing era. As such, a lot was expected out of its predecessor, Destiny. However, when it proved to be infavorable in the eye of many for various reasons, a lot of backlash came its way. If ZZ had premiered in current times after the majesty that was Zeta, it would have received similar heat, for the first half of it, at least.

Fortunatlely, with Gundam 00 being seen as more favorable, the hate will die down, expecially as new series are created.

You're assuming, however, that there was never any backlash against ZZ for being a disappointing sequel. But there was! This is the whole thing. It's only in retrospect that ZZ has been 'forgiven' for its slapsticky flights of fancy.

(small nitpick: Destiny is not Seed's predecessor. Seed is Destiny's predecessor)

[Dark Duel]

the best example I have seen of this is PG Strike Freedom, people were absoultly livid about the choice of Strike Freedom as the next Perfect Grade.

My problem isn't so much that the PG SF is from Destiny, it's that it looks god-awful. IMO the MG Strike Freedom, which was much sleeker, looked a lot better.
Also, that slide-out mechanism is not only an unnecessarily complicated gimmick that weighs down an already atrociously top-heavy design, it looks silly.

As much as I hate its pilot and the way it's portrayed in the series, as a kit and design I love the MG Strike Freedom - that's why I bought one. But IMO, the PG is ugly.

[hawk of endymion]

Jabman looks like your defenses have broken down, I think its time to talk peace.

[ydawg314]

My biggest issue with GSD is that there is no character development at all (this has been said before)... I feel like I wasted the 50sum episodes watching nothing.

I just don't understand why would a writer do a show like this? Pretty much if the writers added another sequel series you could pretend this one didn't happen because everyone is either the same or dead.

Also another thing that I don't understand is why they would really change the ms development? Why the hell would EA stop developing gundams and Zaft start? (They switch?) It makes no sense. The designs also get worse. One in particular which bothered me was the advancement of the EA dagger series. They get worse in design and then just weird.

[DuelGundam2099]

Okay, SEED Destiny is my favorite Gundam anime, but most of this I can't really defend since it's all been said and done before (although I found very little wrong with it); this I am going to defend real quick.

Why the hell would EA stop developing gundams and Zaft start?

-Strike Noir
-Verde Buster
-Blu Duel
-Destroy Gundam
-Nero Blitz
-Rosso Aegis
-Testament Gundam

And probably some other obscure manga ones I don't know of. BTW does Akatsuki count as a Gundam? I never managed to figure that out.

[Dark Duel]

Yes, it does - the kits identify it specifically as such, and it uses the GUNDAM OS. Ergo, it's a Gundam.