In Defense of Destiny

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Dendrobium Stamen
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Dark Duel wrote:I find especially interesting the presence of the Strike's head in the wreckage, as it's something else that should not be there: The head was the first part to be visibly, on-screen, totally vaporized by the Dominion's positron blast.
A minor detail, but it still annoys me.
Jumping in before anyone else can, just to say... Strike's head was indeed the first part of it vaporized, yet a head appears in the debris field created by said MS' destruction.

No, this does not mean we can retcon out Mu's death using a complicated series of retcons involving the "real" Strike with him in it not being the one in front of Archangel (it was) as Mu substituted an empty third Strike to take the blast.

As absolutely hilarious as that kind of contrivance would be, it's not the case. Mu = dead at Jachin Due. End of story, I'm afraid. Frankly, any explanation for Neo being Mu would have been better than "he surivived an antimatter beam to the face because he's that awesome", even one involving Neo being a secretly-made clone with accelerated ageing and artificially-implanted memories, or something.

Much as I enjoyed Seed, and it still holds a fairly high position on my favourite animated Gundam stories list, Destiny simply isn't as good. I still enjoyed it, in many ways, more or less the entire first quarter of the series up to Minerva escaping Orb (episode 12, I think?) was fantastic. Unfortunately, the decline begins almost in the next episode, when a not-at-all-ambiguous ZAFT special ops team try to kill Lacus, "for some reason", and a rebuilt Freedom appears to wipe the floor with them. Cool, but an unfortunate sign of the shape of things to come.

The series did still have some impressive moments, mark you. The slightly silly Lohengrin Gate was enjoyable, Destroy and its rampage across Europe was quite fun, and the Impulse vs. Freedom fight was wonderfully choreographed. Unfortunately, for various behind-the-scenes reasons, the series never really lived up to its full potential. It seems Destiny existed to continue the momentum Seed built up in the Japanese Gundam fandom, but the result was rushed, almost forced, and sadly doesn't work as well as it could have.

A shame, but there we go. If the film ever comes to fruition, we'll see what that does for the Cosmic Era, but until then it'll just be more and more diluted by endless side-stories using the risk of contradicting a future work as an excuse for a total lack of creativity, sadly.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Darkerangel » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:26 pm

jabman025 wrote:First, let me say what I think of the series in general. I believe that Gundam Seed Destiny is a good series with the worst final episode in any Gundam series ever made. I am not going to try to defend the final episode of the series because even I can’t make that episode look good.
Which final episode? There was like two?
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by jabman025 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:48 pm

the original final episode was a train wreck, the final plus final episode was less of wreck but it still wasn't what I would qualifiy as good.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by DuelGundam2099 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:51 pm

the only Gundam shows to not have clip episodes were MSG, Zeta and X.
G and 00 had clip shows? Strange, I don't remember those....

On a similar note I'm now confused, now people here are saying Neo wasn't Mu despite that SEED Destiny pretty much said or implied he was or something? :?

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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by ShadowCell » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:58 pm

DuelGundam2099 wrote:
the only Gundam shows to not have clip episodes were MSG, Zeta and X.
G and 00 had clip shows? Strange, I don't remember those....

On a similar note I'm now confused, now people here are saying Neo wasn't Mu despite that SEED Destiny pretty much said or implied he was or something? :?
Mwu was captured and brainwashed by the Alliance after SEED and turned into Neo Roanoke. Thus, his Neo Roanoke personality did all kinds of evil stuff, but since he was brainwashed, that absolves Mwu.

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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Attomoku » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:07 pm

DuelGundam2099 wrote: G and 00 had clip shows? Strange, I don't remember those....

On a similar note I'm now confused, now people here are saying Neo wasn't Mu despite that SEED Destiny pretty much said or implied he was or something? :?

00's was a half episode and handled well with some exposition and expounding by Corner

And people aren't saying Neo isn't Mu, they're saying that they wished Neo isn't Mu because they felt that Neo being Mu was not only nonsensical, but negated or destroyed much of his (and others) previous development as well.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by DuelGundam2099 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:32 pm

they're saying that they wished Neo isn't Mu
Okay, just checking.
Mwu was captured and brainwashed by the Alliance after SEED and turned into Neo Roanoke. Thus, his Neo Roanoke personality did all kinds of evil stuff, but since he was brainwashed, that absolves Mwu.
I already knew that, but thanks anyway SC. :wink:

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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Mattokaiser » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:32 am

With all this "Mwu death" scene talk that's been going on in this thread, it has reminded me of one thing that really annoyed me in Destiny. The scene where Mwu uses the Akatsuki to block a Positron beam for the Archangel mimicing what he did back in Seed. That scene always came off as being tacky and spitting on the sacrifice he made in Seed. I can see what they were trying to do however the scene didn't come off as being a memorable scene for the right reasons.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Kuruni » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:06 am

Just to perform another dead horse beating, Mu's survive is even worse from "art" point of view. I mean, he shoudn't able to protect Archangel at all, Lohengrin would vaporize Strike and still wreck the Archangel making it a useless sacrifice. Yet audiences are more than willing to suppress disbelief and accept that he did perform miracle at cost of his life. He did sacrifice himself, what else should we ask? It is very successful scene in term of literature.

Then he survive as Neo, no explanation how, pretty much destroy the meaning of that scene as well.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Zechs Merquise » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:12 am

Dark Duel wrote: Athrun in Destiny has no discernible impact on the plot - He's one of several characters that could be cut entirely out of the series without the overall story progression(such as it is) being affected in the slightest; The only difference would be that Shinn's opponent in the final battle would be someone else - like Kira.
Then Destiny could of ended with Shinn's victory. :wink:
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Dark Duel » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:03 am

Would've been nice, but not likely.
Kuruni wrote:Then he survive as Neo, no explanation how, pretty much destroy the meaning of that scene as well.
Amen - Neo being Mwu killed the impact of that scene and burned the corpse. And then they let the cat crap in the ashes when they recycled the scene in episode 49.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by jabman025 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:37 am

Just thinking out loud here, I freely admit that I thought Mu La Flaga's death in Seed was one of the greatest in all of gundam, the sacrifice and honor realy had an impact. Could it be that people don't like his reseruection in Destiny because in changed that sacrifice and not becuase it was pushing the boundries already laid down by other gundam shows.

Also as for Athrun being meaningless in the overall story of Destiny, well I have to say something about that. Athrun represented the balance between Kira and Shin but he serves another purpose in Destiny. He is the guy who asks people the tough questions. To Kira: Do you think your acutally making differance with this nonsense
To Cagalli: How could you let Orb join the federation
To Meer: Why won't you come with me, they are going to kill you Meer
To Lacus and Kira : Why the hell are we shopping while people are trying to kill us!
To Shin : look what your doing Shin, do you actually think your going to put and end to war!
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Strike Zero » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:50 am

jabman025 wrote:Also as for Athrun being meaningless in the overall story of Destiny, well I have to say something about that. Athrun represented the balance between Kira and Shin but he serves another purpose in Destiny. He is the guy who asks people the tough questions...
You do have a point there.

The only problem with Athrun asking all of these thoughtful, highly logical questions: nobody ever listened to him. Not once. Rather than taking his criticisms into consideration, everybody just continued acting stupid.

Example: Kira's response to Athrun's opposition towards him is often ridiculed as a prime example of everything that was wrong with Destiny's writing.

Athrun: Kira! Stop fighting! You're actions are only making everything worse!
Kira: But Athrun...!
*dramatic pause*
Kira: Cagalli is CRYING!
Athrun: ....?! (wtf)

So, yes, Athrun was one of the more logical/reasonable characters throughout the entire show. Unfortunately, he was still useless because his attempts at reason never really amounted to anything.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by jabman025 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:00 pm

Oh I completely agree with you there but, Athrun askes the big questions and more often than not person being asked ignores him. But thats a Gundam trope right there. How many logical questions did Char ask Amuro and vise versa. Yet neither of them changed their ways right up till the end.

The only one who really was changed by these questions was Shin. During the final battle Shin was really forced to confront the fact (by Athrun) that he had become what he was fighting against... a war monger, and a murderer.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Chris » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:13 pm

jabman025 wrote:Just thinking out loud here, I freely admit that I thought Mu La Flaga's death in Seed was one of the greatest in all of gundam, the sacrifice and honor realy had an impact. Could it be that people don't like his reseruection in Destiny because in changed that sacrifice and not becuase it was pushing the boundries already laid down by other gundam shows.
Why can't it be both? Yes, it does cheapen his sacrifice in SEED and the drama of that death, especially when he does the EXACT same thing again in DESTINY, but nothing bad happens to him thanks to Akatsuki's magic armor. It also pushes beyond the boundaries of any ambiguous Gundam death ever seen before. There's just no amount of explaining that can describe how a man survives in space a blast from a battleship that literally almost vaporized the Strike Gundam. Based on what SEED showed, it's just absolutely impossible for Mu to be alive, and there's no in-universe reason that can ever justify it.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Dark Duel » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:53 pm

jabman025 wrote:Athrun represented the balance between Kira and Shin but he serves another purpose in Destiny. He is the guy who asks people the tough questions.
I do agree, but while he asks these questions, the people to whom he asks them basically ignore him, so essentially nothing comes of him doing so - making the fact that he did irrelevant overall.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by jabman025 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:11 pm

Dark Duel wrote:
jabman025 wrote:Athrun represented the balance between Kira and Shin but he serves another purpose in Destiny. He is the guy who asks people the tough questions.
I do agree, but while he asks these questions, the people to whom he asks them basically ignore him, so essentially nothing comes of him doing so - making the fact that he did irrelevant overall.
I don't think they ignore him at all.....well maybe Kira but........Cagalli has to come to grips that she has utterly failed as the leader of Orb, Kira is to nice to lay out the hard facts that Orb's citizens were put in massive danger as a result of her actions.

As for Shin, yeah for most of the series he pretty much ignores everything tells him. But after he "kills" his best freind's little sister, because he was just following orders. He then starts asking himself the same questions Authrun had asked him from the start.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:28 pm

I find the idea that Destiny's resurrection of Mu somehow retroactively tainting Seed's ending hilarious. Regardless of what you think of Destiny, it doesn't change anything about Seed. You can watch Seed and appreciate Mu's final scene for what it is, and then watch Destiny and still appreciate it for what it is. The fact that he (retroactively) survived doesn't change the fact that he was willing to sacrifice him life, threw his mobile suit in harm's way fully expecting to die, and was awesome while doing it.

On the subject of Destiny, I think that people get way to up in arms about it for some reason. It had its highlights, it had its downsides, but people treat it like anything even remotely connected to it is unavoidably tainted with weapons-grade suck. Personally, I think that Destiny wasted a lot of its potential -- but I think that about most Gundam series, so who cares? Enjoy Destiny for what's enjoyable about it (you must admit that it had some very memorable moments -- Shinn's first time entering Seed mode, the Freedom vs. Impulse battle, Stella's rampage in the Destroy...), and forget about the rest.

People act like Destiny kicked their dog or something.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Attomoku » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:07 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:People act like Destiny kicked their dog or something.
I think that people act that way because they had high hopes for Destiny and it disappointed most of them. Not all of us treat it as "weapons grade suck" as you put it, but for the sake of argument we certainly are free to dissect the components where we took some serious issue with and felt brought the entire series as a whole down: like the HIGHLY over-reused footage and character revival/setback/derailment.
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Re: In Defense of Destiny

Post by Zechs Merquise » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:54 pm

Attomoku wrote:
Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:People act like Destiny kicked their dog or something.
I think that people act that way because they had high hopes for Destiny and it disappointed most of them.
People had high hopes for Destiny? :|
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