The Official Gundam 00 Anything Thread Mk VIII

[Kenji]

That said, her stockings are very similar to Nena's.

Also, her first name is exactly one kana's difference from Nena.

I'm still wondering how they're going to make any significant headway in this movie, with all of these disparate elements, but at least it's become far more interesting than it was half a year ago.

[Dark Duel]

http://j.imagehost.org/0499/c24.png

The Nena-lookalike's name is Mina Carmine. She's an astrophysicist it seems.

Veeeeeery nice.

Astrophysicist in leather it seems

That's the best kind of astrophysicists.

Totally agree with that.

Ahem...
Okay, now that I've had my moment to perv out, glad to at least know her name and what she does. Now I just wonder what her role will be in the movie.

[Wingnut]

http://j.imagehost.org/0499/c24.png

The Nena-lookalike's name is Mina Carmine. She's an astrophysicist it seems.

Veeeeeery nice.

Astrophysicist in leather it seems

That's the best kind of astrophysicists.

Totally agree with that.

Ahem...
Okay, now that I've had my moment to perv out, glad to at least know her name and what she does. Now I just wonder what her role will be in the movie.

Given all the hype about the aliens in this film, I'd guess she has something to do with investigateing that aspect of Aeolia's plan.

[Amadi Akintunde]

Astrophysicist in leather it seems

That's the best kind of astrophysicists.

Ah ha ha, yes.

I wonder how much screentime most of these new characters will get. Well, returning and new characters anyways. Gundam 00 hasn't been too great at establishing a very well off cast.

[Symbolhime]

Gundam 00 hasn't been too great at establishing a very well off cast.

Like? Apart from the Al/Marie thing, I think many characters, even Barack, Lindt, Goodman, Klaus, Ikeda, etc had their moments. Plus, at least it doesn't just forget about/kill off someone to replace them with someone new.

[blind_dead_mcjones]

@ Symbolhime

they may have had their moments but most of the time the supporting characters infrequently appeared and only served as window dressing and/or sacrificial ensigns

case in point Dr Moreno, introduced in a manner that suggested that it was an afterthought towards the end of the series then killed off 2 episodes later again in a manner that suggested it was afterthought

another case in point lee zejhang, again appeared in frequently, all we knew was that he was 2nd in command of an A-LAWS cruiser and he berated louise for being impetuous, and again killed off unceremoniously to show off an alternate firing mode for the 00's beam rifles

and then there's the jobber twins bring stabity and devine nova...to say nothing about how insignifcant graham was in the second season

as for lindt, and goodman, they came off as cartoon villains who were the asshats they were just cuz'

[ShadowCell]

Plus, at least it doesn't just forget about/kill off someone to replace them with someone new.

hay gaiz wuts goin on in here

oh, hey Lyle, we're just talking about how you were an all-but-identical replacement for your dead brother and the writers dropped all your distinguishing characteristics, like your lingering loyalty to Katharon, because all they really wanted you to do was be an identical replacement for your brother, so they could get all the cheap attention of killing him with none of the consequences

"Katha-what now?"

exactly

"no seriously what are you talking about? that sounds like a dietary supplement"

it's the resistance group that you were ostensibly loyal to before Setsuna ganked you for Celestial Being

"okay cool story bro but you know i've totally decided to adopt my brother's name and mantle and all that, right? i even said so at the end of episode 25"

yeah, gotta say man, that would've been a lot more powerful if you hadn't already pretty much made up your mind on that back in, like, episode 13

"yeah, it's really a pain when the writers forget about what they were doing with your character ten episodes ago, so they just have you scream important-sounding stuff and pretend that there was drama and character development somewhere in the middle. i mean, like, flirting with Anew was okay, but then they decided to make it all serious and she was a cold fish in bed anyway and--"

not listening anymore, Lyle

"aww, but that worked for Setsuna. they managed to pretend an entire character was important to him even when anyone not distracted by the Gundam glitter could see that she wasn't"

it, err, didn't work for Setsuna

"but nobody realizes that! see, it's an awesome plan. you act as though character development and stuff took place and you actually showed your audience stuff instead of relentlessly droningly Shyamalanistically telling them about it, even though it didn't take place, and people will believe it did. it's genius! then there's a third step that i don't remember, and then, profit!"

well, okay, but what are you doing here anyway?

"can i have some of your Oreos?"

no

"aww"

[Dark Duel]

Plus, at least it doesn't just forget about/kill off someone to replace them with someone new.

hay gaiz wuts goin on in here

I dunno whether I would call him "someone new" per se. Lyle's more of a plot device so Mizushima could pull a Mwu LaFlaga(ie: give the spectacular and emotionally-wrenching death, then bring him back anyway) without really pulling a Mwu LaFlaga.

[Destiny_Gundam]

I disagree. Neil and Lyle are quite different, so pretty much their appearence is the only thing that's the same and that allowed to have bits where the rest of the cast have to accept he's not Neil, and Lyle has to prove that he's not Neil either.

If Lyle showed up and had a 100% the same personality as Neil, then it'd be a cop out, but that's not the case.

[Dark Duel]

Oxymoronic as it might sound, I completely agree...And I really wish I could get ahold of Part 2 of Season 2, but I can't seem to find it anywhere! And Part 3's scheduled for release pretty soon...

[ShadowCell]

and that would work, really, it would...if that had lasted anywhere beyond the first few episodes of season 2.

but the desire to be different than his brother, the lingering loyalty to Katharon, the smarmy air of false friendship, the rest of the crew's discomfort with him...yeah, the last diluted wisps of that had dissipated by about episode 13 or so, and then flirting with Anew was pretty much all he did afterward.

now, they are quite different if you're watching some glorious awesome mental extrapolation of Gundam 00's many forgotten characters and subplots, where Lyle's work with Katharon matters (hell, where Katharon matters) and tugs at his consciousness while he's fighting with Celestial Being, and eventually at some point Celestial Being and Katharon's interests and agendas conflict and he's forced to choose between the people who already command his loyalty and respect and the new friends that he likes, but who still subconsciously compare him to the brother he resents. the things it would say about his character, the changes that would have to take place in both Lyle and among the Ptolemy crew, the depth it would add to the plot...i mean, that would be awesome.

but it's not what happened.

so yeah, it was pretty much pulling a Mwu La Fllaga that didn't want to be pulling a Mwu La Fllaga at first but then it gave up and turned out to just be pulling a Mwu La Fllaga. whether or not this particular pulling of a Mwu La Fllaga makes a difference to you is for you to decide--and there's a zillion reasons why you might--but it's one of the reasons i consider 00 to be, on the whole, no better than DESTINY.

[Symbolhime]

but it's one of the reasons i consider 00 to be, on the whole, no better than DESTINY.

I guess I can happily disregard your opinions on 00 then.

[ShadowCell]

*sigh*

yes, I know, I criticized 00, oh mama I'm in fear for my life from the long arm of the law, but whether you liked it or not, let's please not be total douches about it this time? Please?

[Destiny_Gundam]

It's not that I have a problem with you criticizing 00, it's that I think you're wrong

To me Lyle has always been a distinct character from Neil, one that I found myself liking much more than his older brother.

[ShadowCell]

I was talking to Symbolhime. =P

But, um, okay, why do you find Lyle distinct from Neil? As in, like, still distinct from Neil by the end of the show?

[Symbolhime]

It's not that I have a problem with you criticizing 00, it's that I think you're wrong

Same. I have to go get ready for college, but Lyle's existence was shown before S2, so you can't say he came out of nowhere. Unlike his brother, he doesn't let the terrorists get to him, plus he has a very strong connection to his pals in Katharon, which could be seen as a terrorist group. He's a better Niel without the hangups and a more caring personality.

That and his fighting style involves pistols.

And he totally bangs that hot chick while Niel never got lucky with Tieria.

Also he manages to trash his own Gundam twice rather amazingly.

I quite like him~

As in, like, still distinct from Neil by the end of the show?

They are twins, though. Identical twins in anime are generally characterized as having a ton of similarities but with the real differences beneath the surface. Like the pair from Ouran and stuff. If you look at it that way, it's no big deal.

[Destiny_Gundam]

But, um, okay, why do you find Lyle distinct from Neil? As in, like, still distinct from Neil by the end of the show?

Lyle always seemed down to earth to me, while Neil felt a bit more high and mighty. Like, Neil's the guy you look up to, Lyle's the guy you knock back drinks with.

And specifically at the end? Where as Neil flew into a murderous rage when faced with Ali, Lyle kept his cool and was actually going to take Ali alive before he had no choice but to shoot him.

[ShadowCell]

Symbolhime, you say he didn't come out of nowhere; okay, so they covered their asses by throwing him into a frame in season 1 and pointed back to that to say that technically he wasn't a new addition; that doesn't really change anything.

You say he doesn't have hangups like Neil did. How often did Neil's hangups ever come up? He pitched a fit about terrorists in episode 7 or so, and he pointed a gun at Setsuna for a couple minutes after Johann revealed Setsuna's prior identity, and then he threw a fit at Ali. Other than those instances of throwing fits and yelling, he was the nice guy who looked out for his friends and had a caring, jovial sort of personality--exactly as Lyle turned out. Not even his rage against Ali is that different from Lyle, because Lyle turned his rage on Setsuna after he killed Anew--but, like Neil, he cared about Setsuna enough not to kill him. Hell, what about his insistence on not being treated like his brother? A hangup--one that disappeared pretty quickly, at that.

You say Lyle has a more caring personality--but, uh, when exactly was he "more caring" than Neil? You say he's still loyal to Katharon--the same Katharon he's all but forgotten about halfway through the show. That "connection" never becomes an issue after their base in the Middle East gets destroyed. The last time it even gets mentioned, to my recollection, is an abortive phone call he makes in episode 14--just over halfway through the second season. It doesn't influence his choices, his personality, or his interactions with the Ptolemy crew after the first few episodes. Nobody seems to even notice that he slinks off to the corner to call his Katharon buddies--and if they do, they don't appear to care. Perhaps that's a symptom of Katharon being little more than the Happy Tree Friends for A-LAWS to beat up until the end, but it still doesn't say much about his "connection" to them that they figure so anemically into his character and into the overall plot. You say he hooks up with Anew; how does that make him different, instead of just showing that he was a character in a different plot?

You say his fighting style involves pistols; so what? Neil's fighting style involved pistols too. And if the ratio of pistol-to-rifle use is a defining difference in his character from Neil, well, maybe he's not all that different in the first place.

It's fine that you like him, but I don't see what you're saying makes him different. Yes, he started out different, but those differences--his connection to Katharon, his resentment of his brother, his lack of interest in the terrorists who killed his parents--are quickly swept aside, and although two of them crawl back up very occasionally within the story, it's overwhelmed by the bulk of his appearance and characterization. And just because he started out different doesn't negate his character for the rest of the show. If he was really different from his brother, I don't think it's unreasonable that I should expect his differences to actually show up frequently. They don't.

They are twins, though. Identical twins in anime are generally characterized as having a ton of similarities but with the real differences beneath the surface. Like the pair from Ouran and stuff. If you look at it that way, it's no big deal.

My complaint about Lyle is that they drained away all of those differences, and occasionally remembered to mention them but usually just had Lyle work as the stand-in for his brother. And since I didn't like it when DESTINY brought back Mwu La Fllaga from pretty certain death, it would be inconsistent of me to give 00 a pass for doing just about the same thing.

And specifically at the end? Where as Neil flew into a murderous rage when faced with Ali, Lyle kept his cool and was actually going to take Ali alive before he had no choice but to shoot him.

I'll grant you that, partially, with the caveat that there was no Twin Drive System running when Neil took on Ali, and the Twin Drive System apparently soothes the murderous raging beast in 00. That, of course, is pure speculation and of little worth, but it is my remaining doubt.

But then my point about Lyle is modified, not invalidated: the writers spent the entire second season of 00 turning him from Lyle into Neil, except for a moment when they remembered that they intended him to be different and turned him back into Lyle. If he were really a very different character than his brother, that moment at the end would not be the proof; the arc of his character over the course of the series would be the proof. It's like saying that Shinn Asuka in DESTINY was a calm, level-headed guy based on his appearance in the first episode of the show and his meeting with Kira at the end of FINAL PLUS--ignoring all the stuff in between.

[Symbolhime]

...So basically you give reasons he's different, but then say they don't count because he doesn't reaffirm them every five seconds.

Righto.

[ShadowCell]

No, I give reasons that he's different, then point out that those reasons disappear after a few episodes and he just winds up being the same.

See, you'd know this if you'd read my post, but since you're mad that I criticized 00, you didn't.