Difference between Japan and Western Fans

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

This is something I picked up on sometime ago but never got around to asking till now.

It seems to me that the Japanese fans seem to have this weird love of Destiny, whilst the American fans seem to either think it sucks completely or at least don't think of it as much as others. Kind of broad but what do you think?

[DuelGundam2099]

Maybe Japan likes reboots of older things in franchises and America has gotten tired of reboots? Pretty much everything in the Cosmic Era originated from the first five timelines in some way, the only thing I can think of at the moment that might not be the case is the anti-ship sword. There might also be the "mode packs" the Strike and Impulse have, but something tells me that's been done before.

Edit: Okay, maybe the mode packs are something new to the table, but CE still doesn't have much.

[mcred23]

I think part of it is simply that, in Japan, Gundam is huge. It will always do well and always have a lot of love and support simply because it is part of the franchise. They seem more willing to overlook certain defects (Be it story or technical or whatever) simply because it is Gundam. Gundam is a brand over there, like Star Wars or Star Trek is in North America, and people always want more of it. It isn't limited to anime, remember the Crossfire PS3 game? The thing had a let of technical issues, but IIRC it still sold well in Japan because it was a Gundam video game.

On top of that, don't forget that Japan is the target audience for Gundam. They gear the shows in such a way that it will do best over there, so they do things that those fans will most enjoy, but non-Japanese fans might not. And IIRC, Destiny had some rewrites or changes made to the story to fit what the Japanese fan base wanted to see done. Great for them, but not so much for everyone else.

At least, that's my take on it, although I feel like I'm forgetting something...

[ShadowCell]

For those of you who do spend time in the Japanese fandom and understand the language:

Is there more interest in the characters and the drama they go through among Japanese fans than there is among Western fans? Is there a gender difference among Gundam fans east and west, generally speaking, and does that matter? Is it Gundam's differing history in east and west? Is it just this forum? Is it just me?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Japan, being a different culture, has different cultural values than the west. Which sounds obvious, but the upshot is that we have different preferences and expectations. They have different standards for proper behavior, what is attractive in women, and how people should act in a given situation.

The biggest two cultural differences I can think of in reference to Destiny are the idea that cute and childish things are always appropriate in any situation, and that women should be passive and humble rather than aggressive or passionate. The former explains the haros and Birdie (robotic children's toys with shrill voices that pipe up every time they're on screen? We think "annoying", but Japan thinks "adorable"), as well as the sugary-sweet innocence of Lacus and Meer (we think "nauseating" but they think "attractive"). The latter explains much of Cagalli's behavior in Destiny, particularly as compared to Seed -- while the western audience sees are character as being neutered in Destiny because she doesn't take nearly as active a role in the conflict, in Japan it's considered a sign of her character maturing, taking her "proper" place.

There's also the political aspect of everything. In CE, the only unmitigated good guy is Orb, an island nation in the Pacific with little in the way of natural resources or local population but very technologically advanced, whose stated foreign policy is to never attack anyone but defend themselves with all due force -- they're blatantly an idealized version of Japan. On the flip side, the Atlantic Federation is clearly a version of the United States that's gone insane and annexed Canada, Mexico, and the entirety of South America, and is also run by psychotic scheming racist rich guys who are a combination of the military-industrial complex, the KKK, and the Illuminati. Which audience do you think finds these portrayals more endearing: the Japanese ones or the Western ones?

Obviously, this is just my personal interpretation of things: I'm not an expert on Japanese culture or sociology in general. And equally obviously, cultures are made of of individuals: it's not set in stone that all Japanese people necessarily enjoy cute adorable things in their war stories and prefer women to be passive and submissive. If I've horrifically offended someone with this post, then apologies in advance.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Actually it makes sense, at least to me. But I had never considered ORB as Japan before, but now that you point it out, it makes sense.

But I've actually noticed this difference more in Zeta than the newer series. A lot of the things they do in personal interactions in Zeta just confuses me.

[Kenji]

Another possibility that begs consideration is how traditional the Japanese fanbase might be. In general, sci-fi fanbases tend to value strong adherence to tradition (e.g. no matter how high-budget Doctor Who becomes, a Dalek will always be a garbage can with an egg beater and a plunger attached to it), but there may be a stronger adherence in Japan.

In other words, the way that CE clings doggedly to the coattails of UC (specifically 0079 and Zeta), while updating them stylistically for the new generation, may be a plus in Japan, while many Western fans of the timeline would rather forget that aspect.

Compare this to 00. The first season, which deviated fairly strongly from established Gundam norms, apparently wasn't received terribly well. The second season, which is far more traditional (and features a simple good/evil axis, a la CE), was popular enough to greenlight an original movie. I've had a feeling for quite some time that there was another outline for S2, a more logical outline following the dangling threads of S1, that was scrapped in favor of what we got.

[LightningCount]

Maybe Japan likes reboots of older things in franchises and America has gotten tired of reboots? Pretty much everything in the Cosmic Era originated from the first five timelines in some way, the only thing I can think of at the moment that might not be the case is the anti-ship sword. There might also be the "mode packs" the Strike and Impulse have, but something tells me that's been done before.

Edit: Okay, maybe the mode packs are something new to the table, but CE still doesn't have much.

Just wanted to comment on this:

The "mode packs" are very much like those seen in 2001's "Zoids: New Century Zero" on the Liger Zero (one for speed, one for close-combat, one for long-range artillery). Gundam never had something that specific until CE, but did have variable/modular parts as far back as the original Gundam 0079, where parts of the Gundam would combine with parts of other machines like the G-Fighter, to create machines like the G-Bull.

As for the "anti-ship sword," there is an relative equivalent with 0083's RX-78GP03 Gundam Dendrobium Orchis," which features [extra] large beam sabers that cut off huge pieces of Zeon warships in the latter episodes.

An aside: Destiny may be flawed in its overall execution, but it has some standout episodes for dynamic fight animation (as seen in episodes 1-6, 12, 16, 18 & 28) that are some of the most "fun" in the Gundam TV series to watch. That, I am thankful for.

A lot of the things they do in personal interactions in Zeta just confuses me.

Tomino does a lot of things right, but his human interactions haven't always been his strong suit, IMO. Hard to explain, but everyday interaction in particular tends to come off as forced or irrational in most cases.

Another possibility that begs consideration is how traditional the Japanese fanbase might be. In general, sci-fi fanbases tend to value strong adherence to tradition (e.g. no matter how high-budget Doctor Who becomes, a Dalek will always be a garbage can with an egg beater and a plunger attached to it), but there may be a stronger adherence in Japan.

In other words, the way that CE clings doggedly to the coattails of UC (specifically 0079 and Zeta), while updating them stylistically for the new generation, may be a plus in Japan, while many Western fans of the timeline would rather forget that aspect.

Compare this to 00. The first season, which deviated fairly strongly from established Gundam norms, apparently wasn't received terribly well. The second season, which is far more traditional, was popular enough to greenlight an original movie. I've had a feeling for quite some time that there was another outline for S2, a more logical outline following the dangling threads of S1, that was scrapped in favor of what we got.

I think this is a real possibility with regard to how Gundam is perceived, and a good point. Personally, because Gundam 00 was so different in its first season (only thing remotely similar was Wing) I found it more engaging than what came in Season 2, which seemed to want to wedge 00 into the more traditional shell of the Gundam universe. The 00 movie's trailers have made me wonder if that film is made up of superfluous material. Given the direction 00 went with Season 2, I tend to think Destiny's hiatus-bogged movie sequel might have been more interesting than A Wakening of the Trailblazer.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

I think this is a real possibility with regard to how Gundam is perceived, and a good point. Personally, because Gundam 00 was so different in its first season (only thing remotely similar was Wing) I found it more engaging than what came in Season 2, which seemed to want to wedge 00 into the more traditional shell of the Gundam universe. The 00 movie's trailers have made me wonder if that film is made up of superfluous material. Given the direction 00 went with Season 2, I tend to think Destiny's hiatus-bogged movie sequel might have been more interesting than A Wakening of the Trailblazer.

I thought S2 made perfect sense to me but I do have to say, even a flawed 00 movie will probably be better than anything that SEED can come up with.

[YazanGable]

The "mode packs" are very much like those seen in 2001's "Zoids: New Century Zero" on the Liger Zero (one for speed, one for close-combat, one for long-range artillery). Gundam never had something that specific until CE, but did have variable/modular parts as far back as the original Gundam 0079, where parts of the Gundam would combine with parts of other machines like the G-Fighter, to create machines like the G-Bull.

Technically not quite.
CE was just the first time we got mode packs in animation. Prior to SEED they'd been introduced to Gundam on at least 3 other occasions (the Gundam F-90, the Geminass units from G-Unit, and the G-Saviour, which needed to be outfitted with different parts to switch from Earth to space combat.)

[SuiseiHiyoko]

I think since mode packs are actually some kinda additional equipments for the original unit, things that similar to those already exists since the original Gundam with additional G-parts. Here the Gundam can actually changes between 'modes,' normal MS mode, G-Bull, G-Sky, G-Fighter, and Gundam + B-parts. But that's thinking more in general sense. Victory I think can classify as well, with the overhang cannons. And though might not seem like it, Re-GZ also has additional equipment in it's BWS.

[Amadi Akintunde]

Wasn't this topic made for the purpose of discussing the difference between Western and Japanese Gundam fans?

How'd it turn into a discussion concerning things that should be in Mecha and Technology? D:

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

Yeah guys, let's bring it back.

[ShadowCell]

Another possibility that begs consideration is how traditional the Japanese fanbase might be. In general, sci-fi fanbases tend to value strong adherence to tradition (e.g. no matter how high-budget Doctor Who becomes, a Dalek will always be a garbage can with an egg beater and a plunger attached to it), but there may be a stronger adherence in Japan.

For what it's worth, I suppose it's also possible that the Japanese fandom actually likes Gundam, the 1979 TV series and/or its movies, more than the Western fandom.

I don't know how prevalent this is, but it seems to me that a lot of Western fans don't really like Gundam so much as they like the Gundam sidestories, which strip out the Newtypes and civilians-press-ganged-into-service and masked rivals and such. So I suppose it's possible that Japanese fans, having more attachment to the TV series (since they get more exposure to it and have a tradition of Gundam being popular, as well as a giant robot tradition to begin with), have more liking for Gundam productions with strong similarities to the original TV series; whereas Western Gundam fans don't, because they don't really like the original TV series all that much.

Which, at the very least, explains pretty well why so many Western fans seem to want Gundam to basically turn into an animated Tom Clancy novel with giant robots.

[InjuredPelican]

For what it's worth, I suppose it's also possible that the Japanese fandom actually likes Gundam, the 1979 TV series and/or its movies, more than the Western fandom.

I don't know how prevalent this is, but it seems to me that a lot of Western fans don't really like Gundam so much as they like the Gundam sidestories, which strip out the Newtypes and civilians-press-ganged-into-service and masked rivals and such. So I suppose it's possible that Japanese fans, having more attachment to the TV series (since they get more exposure to it and have a tradition of Gundam being popular, as well as a giant robot tradition to begin with), have more liking for Gundam productions with strong similarities to the original TV series; whereas Western Gundam fans don't, because they don't really like the original TV series all that much.

Which, at the very least, explains pretty well why so many Western fans seem to want Gundam to basically turn into an animated Tom Clancy novel with giant robots.

I've noticed this alot. Not that youtube comments are anything to go by, but I've seen many a Gundam fan glad for series devoid of newtypes and such. I presonally enjoy the side stories but I favor Tomino's series overall. I guess your average American Gundam fan really does have a different outlook on their fiction. You can see the best selling in American videogames are fairly realistic games like Call of Duty and Modern Warfare. But then Wing is still quite popular but largely devoid of more realistic military or technological focus.

[His Divine Shadow]

For what it's worth, I suppose it's also possible that the Japanese fandom actually likes Gundam, the 1979 TV series and/or its movies, more than the Western fandom.

I blame Wing and about two decades of ignorance for that phenomenon.

[YazanGable]

For what it's worth, I suppose it's also possible that the Japanese fandom actually likes Gundam, the 1979 TV series and/or its movies, more than the Western fandom.

I blame Wing and about two decades of ignorance for that phenomenon.

If we're gonna call out individual titles here, I wouldn't say all the blame rests squarely on Wing's shoulders...it certainly did some damage, but that's not the only reason MSG doesn't seem to be too well looked upon among the Western fanbase.
Some of the burden also could be accredited to the likes of 0083 and 08th MS Team, which seem to be the preferred 'flavors' of Gundam for a lot of US fans, who keep saying more Gundam should take the heavily realistic/militarized route with voluntary soldiers that don't whine and aren't 'superhuman' over scared draftees that don't always like the idea of having to fight and kill and who are coming into some ability they don't fully understand yet. (or, as Shadowcell put it, Tom Clancy novel with giant robots.)

If anything, I'd say the OVAs have a bigger role to play in the Western fandom's apparent hatred of Newtypes.

[His Divine Shadow]

If anything, I'd say the OVAs have a bigger role to play in the Western fandom's apparent hatred of Newtypes.

Nonsense. Wing was the flagship product that brought Gundam into America (if not the entire Western world). Anything involving the UC universe, be it NewTypes or Minovsky particles or what have you, never stood a chance after that, because to the mindset of US fandom, what wasn't bright and flashy as Wing was was simply not considered to be truly Gundam. It's akin to finding a lost tribe using pre-Industrial tech on some island in the Pacific, showing them a Dodge Viper as the example of the pinnacle of auto engineering, and then trying to sell them Model-Ts and saying they're better. 0080, 08th MS Team and 0083, by that same virtue, only performed better because they were brighter and shinier than Mobile Suit Gundam, but none had Wing's appeal because they weren't Wing.

The decision to choose Wing to flagship the franchise in America has set a bar in American fandom that didn't exist in Japan, thus the American fanbase is much more fickle in what they're willing to watch, and sadly that fickleness is powered by the cosmetics of the show more than the story, the tech, or the history.

[YazanGable]

and yet, when you ask Western fans what they want from Gundam, what a lot of them tell you...doesn't suggest bias trowards Wing?
Usually it's:
-Older pilots (this is a big one. I've noticed a lot of contempt in the west for 15 year old pilots.)
-less drama (see above: The biggest complaint that keeps occuring in these series is people disliking the angsty teenagers.)
-Grunt mecha in the focus, rather than simply mooks
-NO NEWTYPES, NO SUPERPILOTS OF ANY KIND

All of which are hallmarks more consistent with the more militaristic OVAs than they are with Wing.

[mcred23]

I don't think that the point was which American fans wanted more of, Wing or OVAs, but rather to show that American fans didn't accept MSG because it wasn't what they expected. Wing had a story and style that was easy to get into, while the OVAs had pretty animation (A massive contrast to MSG) with easier stories (Or simplier, for lack of better terms) and an almost familiar militaristic feel that Americans can get behind. MSG didn't really have those things, which is why is was so heavily rejected here.

And that goes back to the points ShadowCell and HDS were making, the Japanese like the original series (And movies). For them, it's the classic beginning of everything and they had (At around the time Gundam came to America) about 20 years for that to set in. Because of that, they like things that are similar to Mobile Suit Gundam. We got Wing, which we loved, and then were expected to instantly love MSG like they do, but it's not like Wing, and we don't have the same history with it as they do, so we didn't love it, and so it didn't become the same phenomenon over here like it is in Japan.

Which, to try and bring us back to the point of this thread, is a major difference between Japanese and Western (Or at least, American) fans. Japan likes MSG and everything in it, which includes things like masked villians and Newtypes and all that. The original series is part of their culture. We rejected MSG, while the OVAs happen to be closer to what we are used to (More technical stuff, older characters), so we prefered those stories and the way they showed Gundam.