Gundam-- What IF?

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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by ORegan » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:01 pm

ShadowCell wrote: Ah yes, deny Master Hacker and Super Soldier Heero Yuy information about what it is you're doing, and then expect him to still not know what you're doing but join you in doing it anyway.

No way that could go wrong.

I know, I know, the inner Zeon fanboy screams out for some way to let the Space Nazis win the war and the almighty Wing Zero seems like as good a bet as any, but even if you threw Heero and his uber Gundam into the mix, he's not gonna work for Gihren "Hitler? Me? Oh, you're too kind, dad" Zabi. That goes against pretty much all of his character.
How well did you read my posts in this topic or the posts of others? Seems to me that you were just skimming through them for the jist of it all about0 the scenerio I've been commenting on. *Him choosing to side with Zeon wasn't even my suggestion, so I'd like to know where the Zeon fanboy part came from, besides the obvious answer of your ass <_<* I stated pretty logical answers to everything, including limited his computer time like an over protective mother of today's "The media is evil" generation, not denying him information alltogether like you seem to think was my proposal. :roll:
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by ShadowCell » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:20 pm

I love it when people accuse me of not reading their posts and then immediately, in the same sentence even, without even a hint of shame or irony, turn around and show me that they didn't read mine. Or even their own, apparently.

I'll just point out here that you were the one talking about the idea of him siding with Zeon with all these "logical answers" by trying to find a condition where the same Heero Yuy we all saw in Gundam Wing saving the world from certain doom would join a faction whose goal is to conquer the Earth and dramatically reduce its population. I'll also point out that, what with Heero's objective from Gundam Wing being to end a tyrannical dictatorship over the colonies, he's not too likely to, um, join a tyrannical dictatorship over the colonies. And throughout the One Year War, there is only one tyrannical dictatorship over the colonies, and it ain't the Feddies. And, I'll point out that making Heero fight for you at gunpoint didn't work out all that well in Gundam Wing when OZ tried it. So we're back to my original point: Heero Yuy isn't the kind of character who will be fooled by some hypothetical Zeonic shenanigans to keep him misled about Zeon's actual methods and goals, and he's not the kind of character who will knowingly work with a group like Zeon, whose overall goal and unquestioned leadership are pretty evil regardless of the generally okay guys that may appear in the ranks of its soldiers.

And lastly, I would ask you to note that nowhere did I say anything about
denying him information alltogether
but since it
Seems to me that you were just skimming through them for the jist of it all
then I suppose I shouldn't bother.

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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:29 pm

Well, Heero actually probably WOULD work for such a group...but only in terms of reaching his own goals, lol. Otherwise, he'll break away the first chance he gets as soon as they're not useful anymore. Even then, he'd still do pretty much what he wants to the absolute limit that he can take it (like when he and Trowa "accidentally" kept destroying their MD escorts and all while in the Mercurius and Vayeate)
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by ShadowCell » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:36 pm

Actually, now that I think of it, it would be more in-character for the Zeeks to just kill Heero and take the Gundam for themselves, rather than mess with some outsider whose loyalties are in question.

Which solves everything. =P

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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by ORegan » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:05 pm

ShadowCell wrote:I'll just point out here that you were the one talking about the idea of him siding with Zeon with all these "logical answers" by trying to find a condition where the same Heero Yuy we all saw in Gundam Wing saving the world from certain doom would join a faction whose goal is to conquer the Earth and dramatically reduce its population.
You understand that I said I didn't suggest the idea, right? And to be fair, reducing the population wasn't Gihren's plan. He wasnted to subjegate everyone under his rule. The colony drop was just a way to win the war with their limited resources.
ShadowCell wrote: I'll also point out that, what with Heero's objective from Gundam Wing being to end a tyrannical dictatorship over the colonies, he's not too likely to, um, join a tyrannical dictatorship over the colonies. And throughout the One Year War, there is only one tyrannical dictatorship over the colonies, and it ain't the Feddies.
Providing he knew from the get-go that Zeon were dropping colonnies and gassing civilians, yes you're right. But from the perspective of an opprossed colonist thrown into a universe were you see colonists were fighting against the Earth and not knowing about the war crimes or the history of the new universe, you can see why he'd head for Zeon.
ShadowCell wrote:And, I'll point out that making Heero fight for you at gunpoint didn't work out all that well in Gundam Wing when OZ tried it.
Never suggested that.
ShadowCell wrote: So we're back to my original point: Heero Yuy isn't the kind of character who will be fooled by some hypothetical Zeonic shenanigans to keep him misled about Zeon's actual methods and goals,
What makes Heero so impervious to being given false information? Wasn't this the same guy who destroyed a plane with all the Earth Alliance liberal types because it was an OZ ship, which allowed OZ to sieze power?
ShadowCell wrote:and he's not the kind of character who will knowingly work with a group like Zeon, whose overall goal and unquestioned leadership are pretty evil regardless of the generally okay guys that may appear in the ranks of its soldiers.
Once again, never said anything that suggested he would side with them of his own free will after knowing what Zeon's goal was.,,,That's pretty much why I said give him false information in the first place.
ShadowCell wrote:And lastly, I would ask you to note that nowhere did I say anything about
denying him information alltogether
but since it
Seems to me that you were just skimming through them for the jist of it all
ShadowCell wrote:then I suppose I shouldn't bother.
ShadowCell wrote:Ah yes, deny Master Hacker and Super Soldier Heero Yuy information about what it is you're doing, and then expect him to still not know what you're doing but join you in doing it anyway.

No way that could go wrong.
Wait…Wut?

And in all actuality, the Federation would probably kill Heero just as quickly as the Zekes, mainly because he has a Gundam which may have stolen technology.
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by ShadowCell » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:43 pm

I didn't say you suggested this idea. Nor did I say anything about "denying him information alltogether," although you did very considerately quote where I mentioned "denying him information" and not "denying him information altogether." And, y'know, "giving him falsehoods" is called lying, and lying is denying someone truthful information by putting falsehoods in its place. This isn't a case of nitpicking semantics on my part, it's the basic definitions of what you're saying.

As for the rest, well, you seem to be assuming with this whole scenario that trained guerrilla operative Heero Yuy won't get suspicious about the restrictions his new bosses keep placing on him, especially when it comes to background about the war they keep trying to get him to fight in. Not to mention you're assuming he'll want to work with anybody, let alone a government that is actively oppressing its own people. He didn't even want to work with the other Gundam pilots when he found them, and as far as he could tell, they too were fighting against the Alliance. Plus, if you have Heero popping out of the TARDIS or whatever during the One Year War, he won't be looking at "oppressed spacenoids vying for freedom," he'll be looking at an independent nation at war with another independent nation (and incidentally, any oppression the spacenoid nation suffers is coming from its own leadership, not from the Earth)--and, furthermore, he'll be looking at the spacenoids having conquered much of the Earth. Which is, um, not exactly a world of poor oppressed spacenoids. And all of this hinges on the assumption that Heero's new Zeek handlers know that the brooding kid in the bike shorts won't go along with them if they tell him about Zeon's real actions throughout the war and their leader's real intentions.

I suppose if you conk him on the head and brainwash him then he'll fight for Zeon, but then you're not really talking about Heero anymore and this thread pretty much turns into a versus thread.

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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by ORegan » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:18 am

ShadowCell wrote:Avoiding quote war
To be fair, I also see Heero going off on his own to fight either side...both are portrayed tp have massive pricks for leaders in multiple works...he's a guerllia fighter, not someone who likes a formal military. I'm just trying to make the What-if scenerio presented work. :P..also the whole Zeon being oppressed thing is coming from the mind set of if you were to ask the average Zeon grunt why they were fighting. If Heero went around a typical camp and asked, they'd all pretty much respond with the preservation of the colonies etc. that mien fuhrer has been shoveling down their throats. And this entire assumption is based on if he would even get involved in the first place. In his shoes, I'd personally try to find a way to get the hell back to my own timeline.
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by CidHighwind » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:22 pm

If anyone presented Zeon as being a viable alternative for Heero, it was me. But I'm basing that mostly on BOTH sides being pretty ZOINKS, and that of the two, the Zeon have a background and situation most like side Heero initially fights for in Gundam Wing.

If anything, Gundam Wing started out as a subversion of the original Gundam series, by placing the protagonists on the side of the rebellious space faction. However, it lampshades this later on, by making the colonies more pure in intent than Zeon ever was, (Zeon was an entire faction backing up nuclear war and colony drops, while the AC Colonies were peaceful, but had a much smaller, basically terroristic faction with the pilots/scientists and the original Operation Meteor). It lampshades it farther when the pilots become their own faction, destroying any comparison to Gundam there was at that point.

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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by Imperial » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:54 pm

In the beginning, Heero might have an inkling of sympathy for Zeon, given his background fighting a corrupt Earth government. However, Zeon voided any sympathy it might have had over the course of Operation British. Heero isn't likely to miss that.

In fact, if we go into Heero's past, he has no problem fighting against fellow spacers who go too far. Anyone remember how he and the rest of the G-Boys sided with Earth against White Fang? As soon as he sees Zeon is throwing (or has thrown) stuff at Earth, he'll have Libra flashbacks and point that huge, honking buster rifle in Zeon's direction.
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:31 pm

Well, it's also ONLY the original Zeon that he'd have sympathy for (Republic of Zeon) and NOT the Zabi-style Principality/Duchy of Zeon who merely pervert Zeon Deikun's teachings just to gain support, but don't actually believe in his beliefs.

That's pretty much what White Fang was. Sure they SAY they wanted independence for the colonies and to break the hold the Earth had over them, but (at least with how Endless Waltz pointed), all they really cared about was having all the power for themselves (like the Barton Foundation) and the pilots knew that while Trieze genuinely believed in protecting the Earth, but (as Quatre pointed out) also NOT going against the colonies as a whole, but just White Fang itself.
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by blind_dead_mcjones » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:52 am

something to think on regarding heero joining the zeon, namely that entire idea hinges on heero not seeing a single mobile suit at all, given that in his universe mobile suits = symbol of terror and intimidation he would, based on his experience, apply the same logic to the universal century, and seeing that the zeon used mobile suits almost exclusively throughout most of the war (and the Leo's passing resemblence to the zaku) chances are he'd be aiming his twin buster rifle in their general direction simply because they're the ones with the mobile suits, unless he came into contact with white base, saw GM's instead (which wouldn't happen until later on in the war) or came in during A Boao Qu, in which to him everyone is fair game instead.
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by Mu La Flaga » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:14 pm

blind_dead_mcjones wrote:
or alternatively what if the heliopolis raid ended in dismal failure for ZAFT, failing to capture ANY of the GAT suits?
That is an interesting one if ZAFT's attack had failed and the Earth Alliance had all 5 Gundams along with the ArchAngel's original crew and the 5 Earth Alliance pilots would have been using them possibly with or without the incomplete OS, depending on if their OS were to be completed and fix out the stabilization and response problems.

Not to mention furthermore one thought crosses my mind already, the Duel would not have needed and not gotten it's Assualt Shroud upgrade.

Also if they had all 5 of those Gundams, it wouldn't stop Orb from building the Strike Rouge at least in terms of them for developing their Astray MSes for defence of Orb.
However Cagalli wouldn't have a need for it as much since she wouldn't be stuck out in the desert trying to fight Andrew Waltfield and all that.

Further things such as the Blitz not being destroyed in combat the way it was are all things that could have happened.
Other events like Artemis being invaded also would not have happened.
Later on also Gold Frame would not have gotten Blitz's cut off arm.
That and also with Murrue not being the Captain I wonder how well the ship would have done.

I wonder if the 5 Gundams and ArchAngel would have been on the offensive alot or headed to Earth still?
Last edited by Mu La Flaga on Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:36 pm

There's also the fact that, most likely, the GuAIZ would not have been produced the way it was (as powerful and such) and common beam weaponry wouldn't have been made (easily) available for ZAFT.

Also, the Justice, Freedom, Regenerate, Testament, or Providence Gundams wouldn't have been made possible (at the very least not in their "Gundam" forms). Quite possibly even GENESIS (at least without the Phase Shift protection).

In turn, that could also have ended up making things much different in SEED Destiny.
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by Mu La Flaga » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:46 pm

Yeah or at the least if they made their own developments it would have taken a long time to do such a thing.

I also wonder if they would develop their Strike Daggers or other MP MS variants based off the prototypes?

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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:47 am

Well, they did already, at least out of the Duel, Buster, and Strike with the Duel / Long Dagger, Buster Dagger, and (Strike) Dagger. Also with the Forbidden with the Forbidden Blue, Deep Forbidden, and Forbidden Vortex.
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by Dark Duel » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:30 pm

Mu La Flaga wrote:
blind_dead_mcjones wrote: That and also with Murrue not being the Captain I wonder how well the ship would have done.
Probably pretty well, given that assuming the Heliopolis raid fails completely, the Archangel would presumably set sail with a ranking CO with at least some experience, rather than some random officer on the crew who took command because everybody who outranked her was dead.
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:53 pm

Also, in terms of the 5 GAT-X prototypes, IIRC, they were already difficult to pilot enough for Naturals, and Kira and the others "fixing" the OS made it virtually impossible for a Natural to hope of piloting it themselves (leading to making a different OS made for Naturals BASED on that OS). So even if they weren't successful in stealing them, it would probably still be a bit before they were actually that usable by the Alliance, IMO. At least until they themselves could fix the OS to work for them.
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by InjuredPelican » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:47 pm

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:Also, in terms of the 5 GAT-X prototypes, IIRC, they were already difficult to pilot enough for Naturals, and Kira and the others "fixing" the OS made it virtually impossible for a Natural to hope of piloting it themselves (leading to making a different OS made for Naturals BASED on that OS). So even if they weren't successful in stealing them, it would probably still be a bit before they were actually that usable by the Alliance, IMO. At least until they themselves could fix the OS to work for them.
I agree. No natural could pilot the gundams at that point, not even the very gifted Mu La Flaga. Would the failure of the raid on Heliopolis also result in Kira and Co. remaining on the colony, or would the colony still be damaged enough to warrent keeping civilian's on board the Archangel? It seems a change like this would completely alter the plot.

One what if I've been pondering is regarding the end of 00 Gundam Season 1. If Lockon had used his trans-am to fight Ali Al Sachez, would he have killed him without dying himself? How would Niel Dylandy's survival alter the second season? Lyle could possibly still join Celestial Being, since he is a very useful and skilled pilot.
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:53 pm

In terms of 00, I've also wondered how things could be altered had Nena not thrown her tantrum at the wedding and ended up hurting Louise...
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Re: Gundam-- What IF?

Post by Zeong » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:02 am

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:In terms of 00, I've also wondered how things could be altered had Nena not thrown her tantrum at the wedding and ended up hurting Louise...
Well, Saji and Louise would probably have gotten married but I think they would still get dragged into the CB vs A-LAWS conflict somehow and both of them find out about Setsuna being a member of CB. I do kinda wonder how the death of Saji's sister (Kinue is her name, right? It's been a while since I watched 00) would affect Saji and Louise.

As for the Trinities, I'd say their actions would still anger Setsuna and the other CB members and they'd probably end up fighting them eventually. Who knows, it could possibly end up being a 3-way fight with the Trinities, Setsuna and Co., and the GN-Xs depending on how much longer the Ptolemaios crew could tolerate Team Trinity's actions.

I do wonder what would happen if Alejandro and Ribbons didn't give the GN-Xs to the Union, AEU, and HRL.

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