Why is Gundam unpoular in the US?

[rebel_cheese]

I dunno if Gundam was cited in specific, but I also heard that CN staffers said they love anime, but it performs poorly so it's not logical to air it.

That's not precisely true.

Naruto, unadvertised and inconsistently aired near the end of its CN run, had the exact same ratings as heavily promoted premieres of Batman: The Brave and the Bold, around the 1.1 million total viewers mark (in fact Naruto's ratings were slightly better).

Blue Dragon's ratings on Saturday mornings in 2008 generally placed third or fourth in the SatAM lineup despite having the earliest slot when many kids would still be asleep.

Anime did just fine on CN, the network has other reasons for cutting anime from the lineup.

You may be thinking of Adult Swim saying why they don't touch Gundam. They said it's a "Toonami thing".

[foxpaws]

When it comes to shows that depend heavily on merchandise sales for profit - essentially, they are merchandise commercials writ large - the profit/loss equation for both the TV network and the company making the show depends on more than just the broadcast ratings.

Sometimes, a TV network will pay a company for the rights to broadcast an anime show, if it believes that the show will attract viewers to its network; the TV network can make the money back by selling advertising during the show's commercial breaks.

But other times, the company making the show will instead pay the TV network if they'll broadcast the show. This payment agreement often involves a slice of the revenue from resulting merchandise sales. As an example: "If you broadcast our show, we'll pay you X upfront. But! We'll also give you a % of the merchandise revenue, which we expect to be 5*X!"

Ideally, the show becomes popular, fans go out and buy the merchandise in droves, the toy company makes a lot of money, the TV network gets a nice cut of the merchandise revenue, and everybody is happy.

But let's say the TV show results in dismal merchandise sales, regardless of the show's ratings on TV. This results in the TV network not getting as much revenue/profit as they were expecting. If another company with a different show can offer a more favorable deal, the TV network is going to dump the show that's not making money for them.

As the saying goes, follow the money. Don't just look at a show's ratings; look at how well its associated merchandise is performing in the market. Then imagine what kind of a cut the TV network is getting - or not getting - from said revenue sales.

The above may help explain the context in which employees of a TV network state that they are fans of a particular genre, but it's simply not profitable for them.

-- Keith

[HellCat]

It's Keith! (How much Keith? Miles O' Keith!)

On the comments mentioned earlier- that came from the short lived Toon Zone Podcast, during a Toonami special. The creators of the now dead Toonami block stated that they loved Gundam but that its sadly consistent nature of failing to catch on met ultimately they had to let it go.

[vindKtiv]

Known? Sure. If you ask them they'll also probably know about Barney, the Teletubbies, the Flintstones, or even such things as Buddha, the country of Argentina, the sun. That doesn't mean many people are fans/followers, or that they have much popular presence. Simply being known isn't claim to popularity or widespread.

The issue isn't Gundam not being popular relative to it's ratings in Japan, it's of Gundam not being popular relative to other shows in America.

Believe it or not, Barney, the Teletubbies, the Flintstones, Buddhism, Argentina, and the sun are all very popular things. Barney and Teletubbies are still very actively watched by the young, many people still identify themselves as fans of the Flintstones, many people practice Buddhism, and many people are completely fine or happy with Argentina's existence (just because Chavez hates America does not mean everybody hates Chavez, in fact, it might mean more people like Chavez than hate him for his stance on the US).

Conversely, everybody "knows" shows like HIMYM and the Office. Does a very large amount of people watch the show? No. Many people have seen a couple of episodes and like it. However, the amount of hardcore fans/followers that watch every episode and dream about it probably is around the same size as the same group with Gundam. With your logic, those shows obviously must not be popular at all. In fact, with your logic, the only thing popular in America is football.

You need a lot of popularity if you are going to be "known" in the American world. However, with obviously differing definitions of popularity, judging whether or not a series is "popular" or "unpopular" is subjective. However, it is my opinion that some people here are underplaying the popularity of Gundam and are not giving enough credit to the efforts made to localize the series.

Why is it not more popular?

Gundam was made for teens and young adults. Cartoons in the United States are seen as something for children. When a localization group markets a more mature series for the younger kids, then both groups are not happy: the younger kids don't get it and the more mature group think its too kiddy.

I don't know why American Gundam fans hopelessly cling to this assumption that Gundam is a ginormous blockbuster waiting to happen, if only more people knew about it. The high point with Wing is nearly a decade behind us. Gundam is never going to be that big again, and no one can or will do anything to try to make it big. It's best to just drop these pointless fantasies of things that aren't going to happen.

This. I believe the reason why Wing was more popular was because of it focused more on younger main characters that the other series. G Gundam also did pretty well because it had the over-the-top fighting that DBZ had proven effective in catching kids.

[Bonesy!]

In my mind, Gundam making a resurgence in the United States would be a mixed bag, so I don't even worry about it. As much as I'd love more people to get into it, I recognize that it's probably better that it stay this way. For this hypothetical theorization, assume Japan makes a Gundam show designed to be a market force in more than one nation.

For starters, if by some miracle it became big, we'd eventually be treated to a potentially horrible Hollywood production. I don't really feel like dealing with the stress worrying about that sort of thing, and believe me, I am a vocal critic of most video game movies.

Secondly, existing communities would have a wonderful time dealing with an influx of fans. Here's where I'm coming from on this. One, community conflict would possibly arise due to the newer generation of american anime fans (i'm talking early to mid teenagers here that started with Naruto). Most of the mech communities I've seen and read are generally older, mature late-teens, younger adults, and a few people in their 30s and 40s. Crap's gonna happen when you get obnoxious teenagers clashing with adults on the internet.

Another factor is if fandom increases enough, the existing websites which are generally not built server-wise like say, Wikipedia or something are going to probably have server issues. Servers aren't cheap, ya know?

Finally, if this hypothetical situation happened, I'd probably go insane from listening to people go "man i got into gundam when it wasn't cool, you're a baka gaijin" and whatnot elsewhere.


I'm a selfish paranoid jerk, what can I say?

[blind_dead_mcjones]

In my mind, Gundam making a resurgence in the United States would be a mixed bag, so I don't even worry about it. As much as I'd love more people to get into it, I recognize that it's probably better that it stay this way. For this hypothetical theorization, assume Japan makes a Gundam show designed to be a market force in more than one nation.

For starters, if by some miracle it became big, we'd eventually be treated to a potentially horrible Hollywood production. I don't really feel like dealing with the stress worrying about that sort of thing, and believe me, I am a vocal critic of most video game movies.

Secondly, existing communities would have a wonderful time dealing with an influx of fans. Here's where I'm coming from on this. One, community conflict would possibly arise due to the newer generation of american anime fans (i'm talking early to mid teenagers here that started with Naruto). Most of the mech communities I've seen and read are generally older, mature late-teens, younger adults, and a few people in their 30s and 40s. Crap's gonna happen when you get obnoxious teenagers clashing with adults on the internet.

Another factor is if fandom increases enough, the existing websites which are generally not built server-wise like say, Wikipedia or something are going to probably have server issues. Servers aren't cheap, ya know?

Finally, if this hypothetical situation happened, I'd probably go insane from listening to people go "man i got into gundam when it wasn't cool, you're a baka gaijin" and whatnot elsewhere.


I'm a selfish paranoid jerk, what can I say?

don't forget the possibility of an absolutely hideous legal tug of war over ownership rights between bandai, contracted production studios and etc, kind of like the one that the macross franchise is still in the throes of.

[ShadowCell]

Finally, if this hypothetical situation happened, I'd probably go insane from listening to people go "man i got into gundam when it wasn't cool, you're a baka gaijin" and whatnot elsewhere.

Kinda like what you're doing here?

Just because you know you're a "selfish paranoid jerk" doesn't make it okay to be one.

[Bonesy!]

except I myself don't give a hoot about that situation, but I've experienced enough other anime and manga communities that do that i felt I could say that

[ShadowCell]

I fail to see, at any rate, how a bunch of new fans brought in by some hypothetical Gundam resurrection would be a horrible agony that would totally outweigh a) getting to see Gundam shows in TV in North America, b) DVDs and other merchandise being readily available at prices competitive with other domestic merchandise lines again, and c) the new possibilities for more Gundam productions. Sure, it's not actually going to happen, but if it did, I don't think a few annoying fanboys on the Internet is really such a bad trade.

I mean, it's not like the Internet isn't already full of annoying fanboys.

[Bonesy!]

it's more of the resulting shitstorm you'd inevitably have to hear somewhere, i dread this variety of shitstorm like the plague


i once got yelled at on a now-dead forum a few months back for being a "noob" because I wanted to watch the eva rebuilds instead of the original show, and that I would never be a true evangelion fan because of that

[ShadowCell]

...so?

It's not like going to Internet forums and arguing with fanboys is a mandatory part of the Anime Watching Experience. And even in Gundam's current state in North America, it's not like you won't find angry fanboys screaming at you for daring to not share their opinions anyway, so I don't see what you're complaining about. And if you still go to those forums and see the aforementioned arguments and get all pissed off about it, you have no one to blame for that but yourself, because you knew what to expect and you did it anyway.

And either way, if arguing with people on the Internet outweighs your enjoyment of a given franchise, well, maybe you should think about that.

[Imperial]

You're obviously missing the golden rule of fandom, ShadowCell. It's not fun if someone else has heard of it!

[Black Knight]

For starters, if by some miracle it became big, we'd eventually be treated to a potentially horrible Hollywood production. I don't really feel like dealing with the stress worrying about that sort of thing, and believe me, I am a vocal critic of most video game movies.

We've already had G-Savior; I don't think Hollywood could do worse. And some people actually manage to enjoy even that movie.

Secondly, existing communities would have a wonderful time dealing with an influx of fans. Here's where I'm coming from on this. One, community conflict would possibly arise due to the newer generation of american anime fans (i'm talking early to mid teenagers here that started with Naruto). Most of the mech communities I've seen and read are generally older, mature late-teens, younger adults, and a few people in their 30s and 40s. Crap's gonna happen when you get obnoxious teenagers clashing with adults on the internet.

Kind of like what happened in the Gundam community in 2000, with Wing, or 2004, with Seed? Lived through that.

Another factor is if fandom increases enough, the existing websites which are generally not built server-wise like say, Wikipedia or something are going to probably have server issues. Servers aren't cheap, ya know?

So? Some sites will doubtless collapse. Others will begin. I'm tempted to call that "Life" and roll with it.

Finally, if this hypothetical situation happened, I'd probably go insane from listening to people go "man i got into gundam when it wasn't cool, you're a baka gaijin" and whatnot elsewhere.

Which the Gundam fandom also dealt with in 2000-2001 and 2002-2004. Big deal. I could name a lot of people who used to be big Gundam fans but seem to have "left the fandom" in a snit because they didn't like all the snot-nosed young punks talking about how badass Heero Yuy/Kira Yamato/Shinn Asuka/whoever are. That kind of old-timer-ness is where we got wonderful pejorative terms like "Winger" and "Seedling". Didn't manage to tear the fandom apart, much though that was predicted. If you can't stand the heat...

[UC fan]

Yeah, it's kinda offensive to me because I am somewhat new to the fandom.

[AmuroNT1]

The funny thing is, "idiot fans" like the stereotypical Wingers and Seedlings evolve into mature, intelligent fans much more often than "old-timers" mellow out and act like mentor figures to the newbies (most older fans who are mentors were nice guys anyhow). So really, which is better for the fandom, new blood that's inexperienced but willing to learn, or the old guard who sits in the corner and loudly insists that the franchise is going to Hell in a handbasket every time a new series comes out?

[foxpaws]

I sometimes wonder if the desire to see Gundam do well in America is borne out of a need for self-validation, a genuine desire to share one's hobby with others and see it grow, or the hopes of reasonably-priced merchandise instead of expensive imports.

For those still holding out hope for a miracle, it bears noting that Bandai Entertainment has been thoroughly gutted, its former employees turned into contractors whose contracts may not be renewed for much longer. And with most other domestic anime companies in dire straits, I sincerely doubt that any of them can afford the exorbitant license fees that Sunrise/Bandai have come to expect for its prized pony.

The folks in Japan had a chance to reboot Gundam in N. America as a video game franchise, which may have made for a far-better demographic fit. Too bad that the first entry in this reboot strategy was the dismal Crossfire on PS3.

As far as I'm concerned, the Gundam franchise is effectively dead in N. America. But Gundam fandom existed long before the franchise set up shop in America, and it has endured even after the franchise closed up shop. With internet access widespread and commonplace compared to the pre-franchise years, forums such as this and others will ensure that the word gets out of future Gundam shows and merchandise in Japan. Things could be far worse.*

Just accept that for what it is and move on. I did.

-- Keith

* The pointless bickering between UC and AC fans will rage on for years, no doubt. Fans always need to complain about something.

[toysdream]

I sometimes wonder if the desire to see Gundam do well in America is borne out of a need for self-validation, a genuine desire to share one's hobby with others and see it grow, or the hopes of reasonably-priced merchandise instead of expensive imports.

Number two, I hope. Surely, the basic principle of fandom should be to celebrate and share and promote the work in question, bringing the light of enjoyment to those who have yet to experience it.

As for an influx of newcomers, we should be so lucky! In any case, it always seemed to me that the most hardcore "old-school" Gundam fans were actually former Gundam Wing fans, who had rebranded themselves as U.C. supremacists in order to distinguish themselves from anyone who got into the show more than five minutes after they did. Most of the Gundam fan fights I've seen were between Gundam Wing fans and former Gundam Wing fans, so if the franchise ever caught on in the West again, I think the biggest problem would be an influx of newly minted "old-schoolers" who can't wait to start bashing their fellow newbies...

-- Mark

[draconins]

Seconded. Aside the fightings, I believe fans bashing deserves to be sepecially mentioned, which often happens to SEED fans (and also between fans itself, related to Destiny events). In my opinion, while Wing vs UC is more like fighting, SEED (and G, probably) case is more like bashing/bullying.

Fans bashing, especially bashing series with same "primary" title is probably a detrimental for growth of newcomers. And unfortunately such old timer often forgot that they are once newcomer and may have different thing to expect and being an old timer does not means that they always knows more.

[foxpaws]

I'd opine that bashing and bullying is borne out of a need for self-validation than a sincere desire to spread one's hobby. I'll be the first to admit that I've done my share of the former in the past, but I'd like to think I've mellowed out a bit since.

With official franchise support out the window, North American fans need to celebrate what they have in common, not engage in the usual zero-sum, I'm-better-than-you bickering.

-- Keith

[JEFFPIATT]

unfortunately if bandai had someone adapt gundam in to an American kids show they would have had saban do it. Bandai and and the fanbase want it to take off with the existing content but most of america has issues embracing sci-fi made outside there own country. It's not like doctor who has a major following in the us. the best home for gundam is syfy and if they need to pick a anime series to get the BSG treatment it would either be gundam or robotech.